(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[Howl]

21 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

So, Smuggar & Co are taking it to trial, huh?

At some point during the trial, there will be profound anguish for so very many reasons; those who finally understand what Josh was looking at will be sickened.  If they sit through the entire trial, they have to process the prosecution's case against Josh and it will be much, much harder to deny what he was doing.  I feel terrible for what the jurors are going to see. I assume this will be a closed trial with no press or recording allowed because of the sensitive nature of CSA. 

[mpheels]

Filming and photography are never allowed in federal courtrooms, but reporters are allowed except in very specific circumstances (i.e. when evidence presented needs to be kept confidential). I would be shocked if the judge prohibited reporters - the details of the CSA material are disturbing, but they are not secrets. There will also be sketch artists, so we’ll get to see some imagery of Josh on trial.

[PinkGreyBrown]

I don't expect that there will be Duggars sitting in the courtroom except maybe at the end. Maybe Anna will be there but probably not even her, she won't be able to bring a baby in there. Brief appearances but sitting there, actually paying attention for hours at a time to non-God-talk? I'll be surprised if any Duggar does that. They all seem extremely discomfort-avoidant outside of the child-bearing & God-bothering stuff. So far these have just been brief court appearances that Anna & Smuggar have attended, correct?

Ah, & if they surprise me & there are indeed Duggars sitting thru any of it, they won't take away from it what outsiders will see. They're only interested in extracting confirmation for their priors, not learning anything new or challenging. They'll cherry-pick what they heard to confirm that they're being unfairly targeted & persecuted.

[Bastet]

31 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

I don't expect that there will be Duggars sitting in the courtroom except maybe at the end. Maybe Anna will be there but probably not even her, she won't be able to bring a baby in there. Brief appearances but sitting there, actually paying attention for hours at a time to non-God-talk? I'll be surprised if any Duggar does that. They all seem extremely discomfort-avoidant outside of the child-bearing & God-bothering stuff. So far these have just been brief court appearances that Anna & Smuggar have attended, correct?

Ah, & if they surprise me & there are indeed Duggars sitting thru any of it, they won't take away from it what outsiders will see. They're only interested in extracting confirmation for their priors, not learning anything new or challenging. They'll cherry-pick what they heard to confirm that they're being unfairly targeted & persecuted.

The catch is that they actually know Josh and may well have reasons of their own to doubt his innocence. The world may be the enemy of all good Christians, but we don’t know if they regard him as a good Christian. I’d love to know more. 

[Jackie3]

On 10/21/2021 at 3:19 PM, feministxtian said:

They've been playing the "let's see what sticks" game and losing badly. Josh is an idiot for not taking the plea deal. All the shit his lawyers have pulled and pissing off the judge is not the way to go. I hope they throw the book at him. 40 years (20 on each count) to run consecutively instead of concurrently. He'll be in his early 70's before he gets out. 

That is extremely unlikely to happen, much as we all might wish it. What is he, 33? He'll probably be in his early 40s when he gets out. Most of his kids will still be at home.

Even the sickos who make child pornography don't go away for that long, usually. Same with r*psts. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Jackie3

[Jackie3]

On 10/22/2021 at 7:46 PM, Bad Wolf said:

The thought that Josh would be allowed to spank his young siblings is absolutely terrifying. We know the parents spanked, but if they allowed Josh to do so it is absolutely abusive to him as well as the little ones.

Spanked? They most likely hit them with PVC piping. In their first book, they recommended the Pearls "To Train Up a Child" which recommends that method of "discipline." Plus, fundies generally believe in using a rod (and I believe the police report quotes one of the older girls confirming this). Don't minimize it by calling it spanking, children have died at the hands of parents using the Pearl's "discipline" techniques.

Was Josh allowed to use PVC piping on his younger siblings? I do not know, but I suspect he was pretty removed from most childrearing. I suspect Jana did, though, and maybe she still does. Josie is only 11.

I've always wondered why this aspect of the Duggars ideology has gotten so little attention. They do their best to hide it, but "correction" of children is a huge part of their belief system.

On 10/21/2021 at 7:19 PM, QuiverFullofBooks said:

Federal too. It’s long-standing common law. (Not that I bothered to look it up or anything.)

 

I think it's been codified too.

[Idlewild]

Somebody is going to have to get him up and ready for court each morning - the hearing won’t be run on Duggar Time. 
Anna will have a newborn so I doubt she’ll be able to be there every day. I don’t see any of the siblings attending, so it’s just a question of whether JB & M will mask up & attend. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

6 hours ago, Idlewild said:

Somebody is going to have to get him up and ready for court each morning - the hearing won’t be run on Duggar Time. 
Anna will have a newborn so I doubt she’ll be able to be there every day. I don’t see any of the siblings attending, so it’s just a question of whether JB & M will mask up & attend. 

You’re forgetting Mack is 12 now! She can handle the household while Anna is playing the role of dutiful wife. 
 

 

[Tatar-tot]

I hope to God that (one) he is found guilty and (two) at the sentencing hearing he is slammed to the wall with the maximum sentence allowed.  

This trial is not going to be pretty.  Little does team Duggar understand that the feds would not be going to trial if they did not think he was guilty.  

No matter how you look at it, a trial costs an agency (Along with the American 🇺🇸 Tax Payer) a tremendous amount of time and financial resources from their annual budget.  

If the feds are going to trial they will bring out the A team. They do not want him to be found not guilty as it sets a bad precedent for future litigation against future criminals.   

I believe the reason they are going to trial is Jim-Bob and Michele are in major denial that their precious son is a sick-o.  Otherwise the financial faucet would be cut off for his legal defense & Joshie Boy would be pleading out.  I am left wondering if JB thinks once Josh is acquitted he can sue the feds for his legal fees due to a “false accusation.”

This case is repulsive and will be a shadow over the Duggar family for many years to come regardless of the outcome.  From a PR perspective I feel Josh should have plead out early on & JB/Michelle should have gone on a PR campaign on healing a family, and protecting Anna and the kids.  

But no, that would have require JB, Michelle, and Anna, to quit swimming in the river of denial, & hold Josh responsible for his behavior. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by Tatar-tot

[gustava]

I am still puzzled by the hands/feet photos.  Might someone explain?  Thanks.

[mamallama]

Could it be that the camera on the computer downloading the CSA caught a pic of the operator's hands and feet?

 

[Tatar-tot]

1 hour ago, gustava said:

I am still puzzled by the hands/feet photos.  Might someone explain?  Thanks.

I guess we will find out at the trial.

[JermajestyDuggar]

20 minutes ago, mamallama said:

Could it be that the camera on the computer downloading the CSA caught a pic of the operator's hands and feet?

 

That is my thinking. A person’s hands are pretty unique. However they can change over time. So pictures of his hands today might look a little different compared to 2 years ago. Right now I have a bandaid on my finger that would make it look unique but it wouldn’t be there 2 years from now. Same with hang nails and size (due to weight gain or loss).

[nokidsmom]

2 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

I believe the reason they are going to trial is Jim-Bob and Michele are in major denial that their precious son is a sick-o.  Otherwise the financial faucet would be cut off for his legal defense & Joshie Boy would be pleading out.  I am left wondering if JB thinks once Josh is acquitted he can sue the feds for his legal fees due to a “false accusation.”

This case is repulsive and will be a shadow over the Duggar family for many years to come regardless of the outcome.  From a PR perspective I feel Josh should have plead out early on & JB/Michelle should have gone on a PR campaign on healing a family, and protecting Anna and the kids.

There were 2 chances for a plea deal, the one for which the deadline has passed and other before Joshley was arrested.   That to me strongly suggests that all them, meaning JB, J'chelle, and Joshley, do not fully understand / realize what they are facing with this case.   They have lived in their unique bubble for so long, they don't have any understanding at all of how the real world works.   It was evident with the first 2 Joshgates and the fallout obviously was not enough to pierce that bubble. 

If they, and JB in particular, did understand, I agree that JB would have told Joshley to plead because he was not going to bankroll a lost cause both for financial and PR reasons.  I also agree that if Joshley pleaded early, JB/J'chelle could find a way to salvage their image plus sparing Anna and the kids a lot of grief plus a lot of $$$ to boot.  The flow of negative news reports would have stopped right there and the family could move on, their brand still damaged but nowhere near as damaged if this goes to trial and Joshley found guilty.   Right now, they all appear to be on the road of doing maximum damage to that brand and their collective reputation.  People can overlook a lot of things but CSA is not one of them.

This family is not the epitome of being Christian and certainly not an example of a fine family.   It's long past time for people to see them for what they are: unchristian, dysfunctional, not to mention greedy.   Perhaps this trial is a good thing, not for them obviously, but good for the public to finally see them for who they really are.

ETA: I hope all the Duggar kids, both in and out of the TTH, are paying very close attention. I would not rule out that in future years, we see more Duggar kids separate themselves when they are able.  Perhaps not in the obvious way that Jill has done, but even the ones still at home might privately realize that their family is screwed up, that they might want to separate themselves both financially or even socially, when they can.  Kids can be perceptive and I think J'chelle and JB are the type of parents who want to think all their kids are onboard with them and whatever they do. who won't challenge them.  But we know that isn't the case, as we saw with Jill.

Edited October 24, 2021 by nokidsmom

[Dandruff]

4 minutes ago, nokidsmom said:

There were 2 chances for a plea deal, the one for which the deadline has passed and other before Joshley was arrested.   That to me strongly suggests that all them, meaning JB, J'chelle, and Joshley, do not fully understand / realize what they are facing with this case.

Maybe the plea offers were so close to what he might get if he went to court that he decided to go to court.  There's also the chance he'll be found not guilty.  I would think his lawyers understand the situation, though the decision to change plea was/is ultimately his.

[nokidsmom]

4 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Maybe the plea offers were so close to what he might get if he went to court that he decided to go to court.  There's also the chance he'll be found not guilty.  I would think his lawyers understand the situation, though the decision to change plea was/is ultimately his.

True, we don't know the details behind the offers as compared to going to court plus he would not be the first defendant to roll the dice on being found not guilty in a trial.   But if he is found guilty, I can imagine the look on his face, when the verdict is handed down.  Sat on a jury where the defendant did exactly this (drug case) who took a chance on a jury trial and will never forget the look on his face when his gambit didn't work.  

[Coconut Flan]

The last jury I was on was a drug case, too - manufacture for sale and distribution.  The woman came in every day to the trial looking like I dressed for work conference presentations in a very conservative suit, long sleeved high necked blouse, stockings, pumps, and styled hair.  The day she came in for the verdict she was barely recognizable as the same person.  She had almost Jill Rod level of makeup, hair no longer restrained, a filmy low cut top, tight pants or leggings, and spike heels.  She had been giving the jury demure smiles or staying looking downcast at paperwork on the table.  She rather flounced her way to the defense table and gave the jury a very smug smile.  The look vanished when we found her guilty on all counts.  I foresee a similar look of shock and change in bearing for Josh.  

[Jackie3]

29 minutes ago, Dandruff said:

Maybe the plea offers were so close to what he might get if he went to court that he decided to go to court.  There's also the chance he'll be found not guilty.  I would think his lawyers understand the situation, though the decision to change plea was/is ultimately his.

Of course his lawyers understand the situation. They are not blinded by denial, like the family probably is.  Besides, even laypeople know that the feds don't bring a case unless they are pretty sure they'll win it. 

Josh's lawyers can make recommendations, but they can't force him to plea. Even his parents can't do that. For all we know, JB and Michelle are begging him to take a plea. Maybe they are unwilling to pull financial support either way, but they dread what a trial will reveal. In the end, however, it is Josh's call.

I don't know why Josh hasn't taken a plea. Maybe they made him an offer that was so unattractive that he decided to take his chances in court. Maybe he's in complete denial. It seems like a very bad decision, though.

Edited October 24, 2021 by Jackie3

[Antimony]

3 hours ago, gustava said:

I am still puzzled by the hands/feet photos.  Might someone explain?  Thanks.

The government has not made it clear yet but they have made it clear that during the download times, Josh snapped some pictures to Anna and possibly others about how he was stuck at the office. The most common hypothesis is that these were photos of him holding a stack of paperwork for cars, etc. Maybe he sent her a photo of him holding a cup of coffee.  They're just to prove he was holding his phone, which was taking pictures geotagged to the office, at the time of downloads. The computer used to download CSAM was a desktop computer so it probably doesn't have an integrated webcam, as far as we know, and even if it did, it's incredibly unlikely that the government made a warantless search through webcam access. (I've seen people posit this theory on the reddit and it doesn't make sense.)

His lawyers can advise him to plea but the legal outcome isn't the only variable here. JB is probably quite aware that a plea deal sinks the brand and makes appeals a mess, if possible at all. It might, according to his calculations, be better for Josh to go to trial and pay that cost upfront on the chance he can maintain some of the Duggar brand. Pay a bird in hand to keep some in the bush. Making a guilty plea complicates appeals. Alford pleas are complicated for CSAM cases, too. It kind of is the most logical decision to not take a plea at this point from Jim Bob's viewpoint. Not necessarily from Josh's, but still. 

[Coconut Flan]

One theory is that the plea deals offered aren't much less than the likely sentence if Josh goes to trial.  That makes it more appealing to roll the dice with a jury and a certain percentage are not found guilty. They may be delusional as to Josh's chances, but nothing is ever 100% certain with a jury.  As above, if he goes to trial there are more options for an appeal.  Perhaps some error will be made in the trial that can be exploited.  Also if Josh pleas, he admits guilt and the Duggar ship is sunk.  As long as Josh holds out that he's innocent, JB can claim various kinds of persecution and prejudice and try to keep some of his image intact and maybe in his mind they can keep some of their public gigs.  

I tend to think it's throwing money on a bonfire defending Josh, but obviously the Duggars don't see it that way.  

[church_of_dog]

I had been of the understanding that the hands/feet photos were standard procedure in [at least some categories of] CSAM cases, for the purposes of trying to identify the creators of CSA material, not to compare against photos taken *from* his computer.

I seriously doubt Josh has been involved in creating this stuff but LE doesn't know that, and certainly wouldn't just assume it.  They check just in case, in my uninformed opinion.

I think they will compare his formal hands/feet photos to CSAM in their database (probably not limited to what he was found with, but all they have in file) and nothing more will happen (unless they do find a match, which as I said I think is highly unlikely).

 

 

Edited October 24, 2021 by church_of_dog

[Antimony]

2 minutes ago, church_of_dog said:

I had been of the understanding that the hands/feet photos were standard procedure in [at least some categories of] CSAM cases, for the purposes of trying to identify the creators of CSA material, not to compare against photos taken *from* his computer.

I seriously doubt Josh has been involved in creating this stuff but LE doesn't know that, and certainly wouldn't just assume it.  They check just in case, in my uninformed opinion.

I think they will compare his photos to CSAM in their database (probably not limited to what he was found with, but all they have in file) and nothing more will happen (unless they do find a match, which as I said I think is highly unlikely).

If it's standard procedure, they did an incredibly bad job. I made a post about it before (linked) but the photos they took are insufficient to useless for image analysis of this type. There's nothing in the documents to suggest that they were taken for database comparison but there is plenty in the documents to suggest that they were taken for placing him at the scene. The photos from his phone were found via his cloud-synced laptop and backups of iMessages. 

 

[waltraute]

2 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

I don't know why Josh hasn't taken a plea. Maybe they made him an offer that was so unattractive that he decided to take his chances in court. Maybe he's in complete denial. It seems like a very bad decision, though.

If the deal wasn't that much different from what he would get if found guilty in court, that says to me the Feds are absolutely confident in their case. 

All speculative, of course. 

Edited October 24, 2021 by waltraute

[Idlewild]

When I was a prosecutor in England, trials for CSA images were incredibly rare and we don’t have the ‘plea bargain’ system but there is a reduced sentence for a timely guilty plea. The officers investigating these cases were slick professionals and the cases were generally watertight. 
Physical CSA was a different thing- no matter how strong the case, guilty pleas were very rare- it was always assumed that child abusers who denied the offences had a slightly easier time in prison than those who admitted they were abusers and could always maintain to their families that they were in innocent and set up.

Josh may not think a reduced sentence is worth having to face up to who he is and having his family know that. Or he may just be an arrogant arse who thinks he’s clever enough to get away with it.

[Howl]

18 hours ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

They'll cherry-pick what they heard to confirm that they're being unfairly targeted & persecuted.

My thinking is that it's not what they'll hear, but what they'll SEE as CSA images are introduced as evidence.  (IANAL, but I'm assuming images will be shown.)

Edited October 24, 2021 by Howl