(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[luv2laugh]

9 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I wonder too if Josh’s issues didn’t soak up a lot of his parent's time and focus. Not so much that he was the “golden boy” as presented, but that they were keeping him extra close to try to keep him out of trouble, trying to find him hobbies (film and video editing probably not the best choice in retrospect) trying to fix him, jobs, a wife, etc….

That’s really common with any problem/high needs child - whether it’s drugs, violent behavior, mental illnesses - whatever. It soaks up the parents energy, they are constantly focused on fixing THAT kid, the other kids end up really resentful.
Multiply that by how awful Josh’s issues were, homeschooling-so isolated, and just the sheer number of children vying for attention —- it’s an absolute set up for most of the siblings  not being friends with Josh even before everything blew up. 
 

Josh is less than 2 years older than JD and Jana, so it’s kind of strange they put so much emphasis on him being the “big brother” except to separate him from the others. 
 

 

I think JB & Michelle favored Josh until the first scandal came out. He always used to be on the show as well.

Edited October 22, 2021 by luv2laugh

[Jesquire]

21 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

Any law nerds here?

Does spousal privilege pertain to federal cases or is it just for state courts?

My understanding of law is limited to L&O SVU

Yes typically, spousal privilege attaches in any civil/criminal case. There is technically two types:  one applies to any communications between spouses in a valid marriage.  The other allows a witness (here, the non-defendant spouse) to refuse to testify against her spouse in a criminal matter. Also, Josh cannot invoke this one to keep Anna from testifying against him if she wants to.

To add to the confusion, it is applied differently in different federal jurisdictions.

[nokidsmom]

2 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

That’s really common with any problem/high needs child - whether it’s drugs, violent behavior, mental illnesses - whatever. It soaks up the parents energy, they are constantly focused on fixing THAT kid, the other kids end up really resentful.
 

I have mentioned my ex-fiance from college, who by the time I knew him was already exhibiting some serious issues due to abuse and with losing his mother at a young age.  He was sent to live with his grandparents who finished the job of raising him.  A younger brother followed him for the same reasons but ex-fiance took a lot of energy out of his grandparents being the first one to land on their doorstep.  Everything focused on him, on his needs, his problems.  There was clearly resentment from other family members seeing the energy being sucked out of 2 retired people, one of whom was fighting cancer.  

A couple of years after I broke up with him, I had the opportunity to talk to the younger brother's girlfriend who was attending same class as I was.   She was aware of the "problems" since younger brother experienced same as ex-fiance, but what really got me was that she made the same observation about the family as I did.   One time she was at a family function where ex-fiance was not in attendance and she said it was pretty sad how they talked about him without him there. 

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, Marshmallow World said:

I don't know about Canada, but I was delighted/horrified seeing the "American Section" in IIRC a Tesco in the UK. I remember specifically that the section had marshmallow fluff and Pop Tarts. It was a while ago, but I'm sure they still have them. 

ETA: Okay, my memory was not playing tricks on me! Apparently they have American sections in all kinds of grocery chains, not just Tesco. It's pretty neat, but also still delightful/horrifying. 

Some of the things in the “British Section” here in the US can be pretty horrifying too.  And as someone who frequently shops in the Hispanic section… just don’t get me started.  You get very over-priced stuff sometimes, and also a lot of candy and snack food.

Back to grits and Canada— a true story.

When I was a kid, in the 1960s, you could not send any packages from the US to Cuba where my grandparents were still living.  My mother had a Canadian friend who offered to send a package for us.  We were traveling in the US (from Puerto Rico) and we were supposed to buy the groceries, pack them, and a mutual friend would take them across to Canada for the Canadian friend to put in the mail to Cuba.

Cubans do not usually eat hominy grits.  (Even our tamales are made with regular corn, not hominy.) But when my mother was shopping for groceries to send with the mutual friend to Canada, she saw some grits and decided they might add variety. 

So, the grits (and a bunch of other things including powdered milk and cans of vienna sausage, as I recall) went from the US to Canada to be sent to Cuba.  And the reason I remember the grits is that my mothers’ uncles refused to eat “that white corn thing” until my grandmother disguised the grits with food coloring and flavor, so they looked like regular corn meal. I wonder how my great-uncles would have responded to cheesy grits. 😉

ETA:  Cheesy grits are very wholesome if served with grilled fish and two steamed vegetables. 🤣

 

Edited October 22, 2021 by EmCatlyn
Add a thought.

[PinkGreyBrown]

Was Smuggar a delegated 'discipliner' of his younger siblings? I've never been clear on whether the sibling 'parents' were responsible for 'spanking' their charges or if that part was on JimBlob & Mechelle solely? Does FJ have a clear picture of this? Because if Josh got to hit them as a designated authority figure, well, that structure destroys sibling bonds over the long run, & that's typically a feature, not a bug, for controlling abuser types. They don't want the siblings bonding, might lead to unity against the abusive parents. I know about the blanket training but I've been unclear if 'prayer closet' has been a euphemism for the ritualized space where the children get hit, also.

[TeaGrannie]

@Meggo have you tried the cereal aisle? Near oatmeal and cream of wheat? 

[Howl]

6 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

Because if Josh got to hit them as a designated authority figure, well, that structure destroys sibling bonds over the long run, & that's typically a feature, not a bug, for controlling abuser types.

Thank you for this interesting perspective.  Yet another way fundy mega families can introduce more dysfunction.  I can't imagine how horrible it is to be an overworked sister mom/household slave AND have an older (or younger!) brother allowed to discipline you because of patriarchy. 

[Giraffe]

24 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

Was Smuggar a delegated 'discipliner' of his younger siblings? I've never been clear on whether the sibling 'parents' were responsible for 'spanking' their charges or if that part was on JimBlob & Mechelle solely? Does FJ have a clear picture of this? Because if Josh got to hit them as a designated authority figure, well, that structure destroys sibling bonds over the long run, & that's typically a feature, not a bug, for controlling abuser types. They don't want the siblings bonding, might lead to unity against the abusive parents. I know about the blanket training but I've been unclear if 'prayer closet' has been a euphemism for the ritualized space where the children get hit, also.

I know the Anderson’s do this but I don’t think I’ve ever heard if the Duggars do or not. Sadly it probably happens in a lot of these oversized families whether the parents actively encourage it or not simply because of power dynamics. 

[PinkGreyBrown]

Delegating abusiveness to siblings is a common feature of abusive family structures. It normalizes the violence, ropes the older siblings into the conspiracy of silence, does a lot structural work for the abusers.

[imokit]

 

5 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I know the Anderson’s do this but I don’t think I’ve ever heard if the Duggars do or not. Sadly it probably happens in a lot of these oversized families whether the parents actively encourage it or not simply because of power dynamics. 

We know that Jana has also been viewed as an authority figure.  Joy threatened the little kids on camera with telling Jana, when they were playing up with her.  The threat worked.  And it was telling that Joy threatened them with Jana, not their parents.

 

Josh disciplining the kids was mentioned in an episode once.

The older kids had gone with JB & M on a mission trip, leaving a newly wed Josh and Anna in charge (the older 4 girls were with their parents and I think JD was too).

Josh mentioned how he had to show the little kids he was in charge as they weren't used to him being at home.

I was squicked by it even then, because the way he said was extra smug and although TLC would never be explict how Josh was showing he was in charge, Josh left how he did it hanging in such a smug way that anyone who knew anything about the family could guess that involved badness.

This was I think pre Josie, certainly years before we knew what he did to the older girls, I can't remember where Joy was but I think she was taken abroad.

It shows that even with what he did, he was still allowed to discipline and to be in charge of his sisters 🤮

[nokidsmom]

14 minutes ago, Giraffe said:

I know the Anderson’s do this but I don’t think I’ve ever heard if the Duggars do or not. Sadly it probably happens in a lot of these oversized families whether the parents actively encourage it or not simply because of power dynamics. 

And sometimes parents encourage out of laziness.   Won't go into too many details but there's a situation in my in-law side of the family where the parents (of 4 so not a large family like the Duggars nor are they fundie) allow their oldest son (now 16) to discipline one of their younger kids because the kid is difficult and they don't know how to handle him or want to bother.   AFAIK the discipline is not physical but still the older kid should not be tasked with what is his parents' responsibility and who knows how that is screwing up the dynamics.  

Edited October 22, 2021 by nokidsmom

[Dandruff]

4 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I wonder too if Josh’s issues didn’t soak up a lot of his parent's time and focus. Not so much that he was the “golden boy” as presented, but that they were keeping him extra close to try to keep him out of trouble, trying to find him hobbies (film and video editing probably not the best choice in retrospect) trying to fix him, jobs, a wife, etc….

I'm sure the parents were keeping more of an eye on Josh, but they also (IIRC) changed the household rules for all of the kids when only one kid was known to have a problem.  Then, Josh gets featured on the show as the responsible older brother while the rest needed to play along.  I can see it causing some resentment.

[elsiedindin]

If you can’t find cornmeal or anything labeled “grits” locally, see if you can find polenta instead. Any kind of coarsely ground corn/maize should work. You don’t want it to be ground finely like flour, it should be more like rough sand if that makes any sense.

[Cheetah]

2 hours ago, elsiedindin said:

If you can’t find cornmeal or anything labeled “grits” locally, see if you can find polenta instead. Any kind of coarsely ground corn/maize should work. You don’t want it to be ground finely like flour, it should be more like rough sand if that makes any sense.

I've made shrimp and not-exactly-grits with corn meal.  

[PennySycamore]

Since hominy grits are from nixtamalized corn , you can check with a Mexican grocer, if they have these in Canada, and see if they have some dried nixtamalized corn (hominy) that you can grind yourself.  Or if you can access dry  corn, you can nixtamize it yourself.  You can dry the resulting fresh hominy and then crack that for grits The recipe I have for fresh masa was contributed to the LLL cookbook Whole Foods for the While Family by Bryanna Clark of Union Bay, British Columbia.  PM me if you want me to send you the recipe.

[mpheels]

As a southerner living in New England, I use polenta in place of grits. I used to bring back 10 pounds of cornmeal every year when I went home for Christmas, but recently found the H Mart (Korean/Asian grocery) in town carries fine ground cornmeal. I still bring back a few packs of country ham each year.

[Bad Wolf]

The thought that Josh would be allowed to spank his young siblings is absolutely terrifying. We know the parents spanked, but if they allowed Josh to do so it is absolutely abusive to him as well as the little ones.

[zee_four]

On 10/21/2021 at 5:25 AM, Alisamer said:

Anyone who still thinks there's anything "wholesome" about the Duggars as a whole needs to re-evaluate carefully. Josh is clearly not any description of "wholesome", whatsoever. Jim Bob and Michelle hid his indiscretions and instead of getting him real help, waved it off as "satan". They also got the girls who he molested no help, and gaslighted them into forgiving him and later into going on national TV talking about how it wasn't a big deal. They've essentially sold their children for money and fame. They pick out the worst parts of Christianity and double down on them. JB is clearly motivated by money more than anything. 

They are not good, wholesome people. Some of the kids might have been, or could be in the future, but the family as an entity and as a brand is not "wholesome" at all.

(Also I kind of hate the word "wholesome". It's such a subjective thing and also gets used to beat up people who don't fit that description. And generally if a piece of media is labeled "wholesome" I assume it's going to be bland, boring and annoying.)

B-b-but they're white heterosexual cis conservative Republicans who label themselves as Christians. 

 

Thats what makes them wholesome Christians to their communities.

 

If Jesus was alive right now, he'd be rejected by the IFB, SBC and all their ilk for being a dirty Godless liberal and insert whatever racist comment about people of Middle Eastern descent.

 

Christian means something completely different to their peer group than it does to anyone with a brain and a heart.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, PennySycamore said:

Since hominy grits are from nixtamalized corn , you can check with a Mexican grocer, if they have these in Canada, and see if they have some dried nixtamalized corn (hominy) that you can grind yourself.  Or if you can access dry  corn, you can nixtamize it yourself.  You can dry the resulting fresh hominy and then crack that for grits The recipe I have for fresh masa was contributed to the LLL cookbook Whole Foods for the While Family by Bryanna Clark of Union Bay, British Columbia.  PM me if you want me to send you the recipe.

Wait. What? Masa and grits and polenta are all the same thing?? 

[just_ordinary]

7 hours ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

Was Smuggar a delegated 'discipliner' of his younger siblings? I've never been clear on whether the sibling 'parents' were responsible for 'spanking' their charges or if that part was on JimBlob & Mechelle solely? Does FJ have a clear picture of this? Because if Josh got to hit them as a designated authority figure, well, that structure destroys sibling bonds over the long run, & that's typically a feature, not a bug, for controlling abuser types. They don't want the siblings bonding, might lead to unity against the abusive parents. I know about the blanket training but I've been unclear if 'prayer closet' has been a euphemism for the ritualized space where the children get hit, also.

Agree. I am pretty sure that’s what happened and it explains very well why Jana doesn’t seem to be close to her siblings as well. 

[Smee]

Oldest siblings in general seem to have internalised this hierarchy where it's "mum and dad" then "me" then "all my siblings". I cannot tell you how may times I have to remind my son "you're not the parent!" when he tries to discipline his sisters or tell them what to do, but I don't seem to have that problem anywhere near as much with my middle child trying to discipline the youngest. And to be clear, I just mean things like "if you don't do X you won't be allowed Y" or "no, you can't do [thing he didn't see/hear me give her permission to do 5min earlier]". We don't use corporal punishment.

But Michelle and JB are lazy, and had too many kids, and delegated every other aspect of parenting, so I absolutely believe they delegated discipline as well. They certainly wouldn't have tried to stop Josh jumping in to discipline a sibling.

[EmCatlyn]

5 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Wait. What? Masa and grits and polenta are all the same thing?? 

Not exactly, but they are related.  

“Hominy” is dried/parched corn that has been treated in a special way called nixtamalization.

“Masa” is a dough made from hominy flour.

“Grits” is any coarsely ground grain (or bean).  Most of the time in the US today, grits refers to hominy grits. However, coarsely ground cornmeal can also be called “grits” and that is roughly the same as “polenta.”  

Hominy grits taste differently than cornmeal grits, but not significantly different, to some tastes.

[PinkGreyBrown]

So, Smuggar & Co are taking it to trial, huh? Seems like, maybe, I guess, IANAL. This reporting says trial starts on November 30.

I was kinda expecting it cuz they are the MostSupremeRighteousOfAll™ & therefore must fight to the death to maintain their trademark rights; also all the persecutions are validated by the battle. 🙄

[Bad Wolf]

If he pleads not guilty, and then is found guilty by a jury, he  can maintain his innocence all the way to prison. This way they can pull the poor Josh card. See kids, daddy was innocent, but the mean people who hate Christians sent him away. Better for the brand than a guilty plea.

[Howl]

19 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

Wait. What? Masa and grits and polenta are all the same thing

Well, all some version of ground up dried corn...

I live close to a very large Chinese/Asian food market. It smells like fish when you walk in the door, you can buy 12-packs of fresh bok choy, 50 lb bags of rice and the foreign food aisle is mostly US products. 

 

Edited October 23, 2021 by Howl