(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[mpheels]

1 hour ago, Bad Wolf said:

Forgiveness is fine, but it doesn't let you off the consequences of your actions. I can murder someone, be truly sorry, be forgiven, but I'm still going to prison. Just because you're forgiven, doesn't get you off the hook.

For most people, including mainstream Christians, this is true. One of the things that sets fundamentalist Christians apart is their belief that earthly consequences are irrelevant. As long as they ask God for forgiveness, they will get into heaven, and as long as they get into heaven, nothing that happens in this life actually matters. In fact, their ability to live through bad things and still believe/seek forgiveness makes them even better Christians. And if those bad things are consequences of their own actions, it’s satan’s fault for tempting them, but it’s all good because they are forgiven. It’s a pretty good deal if you can get past the cognitive dissonance.

[Mama Mia]

23 minutes ago, mpheels said:

For most people, including mainstream Christians, this is true. One of the things that sets fundamentalist Christians apart is their belief that earthly consequences are irrelevant. As long as they ask God for forgiveness, they will get into heaven, and as long as they get into heaven, nothing that happens in this life actually matters. In fact, their ability to live through bad things and still believe/seek forgiveness makes them even better Christians. And if those bad things are consequences of their own actions, it’s satan’s fault for tempting them, but it’s all good because they are forgiven. It’s a pretty good deal if you can get past the cognitive dissonance.

That’s what is so confusing to me. WHY do they give themselves the most extreme rules and restrictions on behavior here on earth, if it’s all forgiven in the end anyway? 

[feministxtian]

27 minutes ago, mpheels said:

For most people, including mainstream Christians, this is true. One of the things that sets fundamentalist Christians apart is their belief that earthly consequences are irrelevant. As long as they ask God for forgiveness, they will get into heaven, and as long as they get into heaven, nothing that happens in this life actually matters. In fact, their ability to live through bad things and still believe/seek forgiveness makes them even better Christians. And if those bad things are consequences of their own actions, it’s satan’s fault for tempting them, but it’s all good because they are forgiven. It’s a pretty good deal if you can get past the cognitive dissonance.

There's living through bad things and intentionally doing bad things. The first is usually a "shit happens" thing, or maybe being irresponsible or doing something stupid. Then there's the intentional doing bad things. The way I understand it, sin is choosing to do the bad thing when you know you should not and it's compounded by not being sorry for it or choosing to do that again. The fundies presume to know what God is thinking at all times. I'm not so sure about that. There's plenty in the New Testament about things like saying "Lord, Lord" and God saying "I never knew you" or about the "elect" (saved people) being deceived (See TFG). I have no doubt that Josh Duggar is not sorry for what he did, he's sorry he got caught, just like so many other "conservatives" (see Jan 6 defendants). 

I'm not saying I'm perfect...I am SO not perfect, but these fundies get much of it twisted and I think many of them will be surprised when the time comes. 

[mpheels]

57 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

That’s what is so confusing to me. WHY do they give themselves the most extreme rules and restrictions on behavior here on earth, if it’s all forgiven in the end anyway? 

The super strict rules are all aesthetic - what Michelle calls their “countenance.” It’s all about drawing attention and setting themselves apart, partly because it’s a satisfying feeling to draw that attention, but also because it serves as a “hook” to bring others into the fold. People used to see the herd of polite kids wearing matching hand me downs and it was endearing/intriguing. It became less endearing as they gained exposure… Notice how quickly the Duggars and Bateses abandoned rules as they became inconvenient, or how loose they are with the rules when they forget they are on camera.

[just_ordinary]

4 hours ago, feministxtian said:

There's living through bad things and intentionally doing bad things. The first is usually a "shit happens" thing, or maybe being irresponsible or doing something stupid. Then there's the intentional doing bad things. The way I understand it, sin is choosing to do the bad thing when you know you should not and it's compounded by not being sorry for it or choosing to do that again. The fundies presume to know what God is thinking at all times. I'm not so sure about that. There's plenty in the New Testament about things like saying "Lord, Lord" and God saying "I never knew you" or about the "elect" (saved people) being deceived (See TFG). I have no doubt that Josh Duggar is not sorry for what he did, he's sorry he got caught, just like so many other "conservatives" (see Jan 6 defendants). 

I'm not saying I'm perfect...I am SO not perfect, but these fundies get much of it twisted and I think many of them will be surprised when the time comes. 

That’s how I understand it. “Being saved”/“accepting Jesus as Saviour” brings you into the position to UNDERSTAND that you are sinning and gives you the freedom/power to do better. That’s why heathen sinners can be loved, while the sin is damned from an “enlightened” position. The “forgive them, they don’t know what they are doing” phrase goes into the same direction. That’s why the heathens need to be saved and be brought to Jesus. People can do the right thing but it doesn’t come from the right reasoning without Jesus their reasons are weak and somewhat arbitrary. 
People like Josh and how to deal with them are harder to explain. 
Saved sinners know better. So if they repent they repent for the right reasons. They should have the tools to be stronger. But they also get attacked more by Satan than others? It’s a bit weak.
As I said it’s harder, but nothing Fundie logic can’t do I am sure. This irk of fundamentalists have created several subsets of believes and rules that have no real ground in the bible anymore, that’s why even mainstream Christians are at a loss with them. They give certain words a different meaning, so we basically don’t even speak the same language at some points. They also have left the pure religious sphere and have created a confusing mix of religion and politics- but that’s a very US thing for Christians I am afraid. Most hardcore fundamentalists in Europe don’t even vote (even if they did, they are so few it really doesn’t matter) and live very isolated. They rather set themselves apart than trying to take over. Even though it seems in some countries they start to grow and become more powerful. It’s still very very far from comparable.

Edited October 26, 2021 by just_ordinary

[feministxtian]

28 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

This irk of fundamentalists have created several subsets of believes and rules that have no real ground in the bible anymore, that’s why even mainstream Christians are at a loss with them. They give certain words a different meaning, so we basically don’t even speak the same language at some points. They also have left the pure religious sphere and have created a confusing mix of religion and politics- but that’s a very US thing for Christians I am afraid.

The fundamentalists here in the US can be loosely described as "Dominionists". They are looking to establish a Theocracy here in the USA, something to do with the US being the "promised land" or some stuff like that. It's a bastard marriage of Christianity and far right wing politics. Ted Cruz' father is a Dominionist along with others. It is my understanding that Bill Gothard and company were part of this belief system.

Here's some info:

https://politicalresearch.org/2016/08/18/dominionism-rising-a-theocratic-movement-hiding-in-plain-sight

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_theology

Here's the Google search string https://www.google.com/search?q=dominionism&rlz=1C1SQJL_enUS904US904&oq=dominionism&aqs=chrome..69i57j0i512l3.9714j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Idlewild]

7 hours ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

I agree, but I think this time Jim Bob won’t even give him the pretend job, so that his brothers won’t have to put up with him and he won’t have an excuse to leave the house and go somewhere with internet access. He and Anna (god, I hope the kids will be grown) will live in a house owned by the family trust and receive an allowance. She will never let him out of her sight. He might prefer being in prison.

I agree about JB giving him a house and an allowance, but Anna will revert to him being her headship. Nothing changed after the other disgraces- the supposed flip phone of shame gave way to a smart phone and computers and Anna pretended that she had the perfect family. I’m sure she would have loved for Josh to be included on Counting On too. There ought to be difficult conversations with the children, but I doubt it will be Anna having them.

[nokidsmom]

Once Josh is out, agree about house and financial support from JB for the rest of his days, there really isn't any other option unless JB/J'chelle want to see their grandkids starve.  Assuming that Anna stays, don't know if she will finally decide after all this to keep Josh on a very short leash, but certainly JB will do it.   Josh will be in prison for the rest of his life, it will just be different sorts of prisons.  

ETA:  In a way, this is sad because honestly when Joshley went to the FRC, even though he wasn't qualified for anything other than being a Duggar, I thought that if he was serious about improving himself with education, job experience, whatever, that was the time to do it.   He blew it big time then, continues to do so to the point that I don't think there is any coming back for him.   There's not much for him in life now even if he manages to avoid going to jail.   If he was truly never on board with his parents' lifestyle, now he is completely trapped: with them, in NWA, with a wife who continues to have kids with him.   And that is also another sort of prison. 

Edited October 26, 2021 by nokidsmom

[nolongerIFBx]

15 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

That’s what is so confusing to me. WHY do they give themselves the most extreme rules and restrictions on behavior here on earth, if it’s all forgiven in the end anyway? 

Salvation is easy (because Jesus did it all) but the Christian life takes hard work (quote from my last legalistic pastor). While you can be forgiven anything, legalists are working to earn God's love. Yes, He loves them if they drink but He'll love them more if they don't. The set up these rules to keep them from getting close to displeasing God. (See https://www.alephbeta.org/halacha-jewish-law. There are God's commandments [mitzvot] but then enhanced restrictions/fence around those [Gezeirah].) Adam was the first legalist. God told Adam not to eat the fruit so Adam told Eve not to touch it or even look at it. Obviously, if Josh Duggar has followed the legalistic rules on never being alone with the opposite sex (Billy Graham rule), letting his wife has access to ALL his internet usage, etc., he wouldn't be where he is. The point of all the rules is to earn God's love and to keep you as far away from displeasing Him as possible. If they want crowns in heaven to throw at Jesus' feet--not just be bystanders because they were average--they have to live up to these extremes. God will forgive them anything but He won't love them as much as those who were "all in."

Edited October 26, 2021 by nolongerIFBx

[FleeJanaFree]

9 hours ago, Idlewild said:

I agree about JB giving him a house and an allowance, but Anna will revert to him being her headship. Nothing changed after the other disgraces- the supposed flip phone of shame gave way to a smart phone and computers and Anna pretended that she had the perfect family. I’m sure she would have loved for Josh to be included on Counting On too. There ought to be difficult conversations with the children, but I doubt it will be Anna having them.

I was just thinking about this too. The flip phone didn’t last long. I bet (when he gets out of jail) they’ll go without internet in their home/only Anna and maybe the older kids will have iPhones. She’ll rigidly guard her phone. And then she’ll decide he’s been a good boy after x amount of time (longer than last for sure) and it will start all over again abd he’ll have unsupervised internet privileges because Jesus. 

[formergothardite]

In IBLP a lot of the rules were to avoid the appearance of being sinful. For example I knew IBLP families that would not go to a restaurant that had a bar(like Chili's) because someone you have been witnessing to might see you and think that you are hypocritical for being anti-alcohol while going to a place that had an entire bar in it. Same with going to the movies, someone might see you and think you watched a sinful movie and your ability to witness is damaged. 

But in reality I think of lot of these rules are about control,  smugly looking down on others and being able to easily identify people who are part of the "right" group. 

[Idlewild]

I don’t know about the US but in England CSA offenders have a court order placed on them when they are sentenced which has various prohibitions and requirements- for CSA images it involves registering all devices with the police and agreeing to police installed software to monitor their use. Any breaches of the terms is a criminal offence. There’s no point relying on his family to monitor him- unless his issues are addressed with therapy he will always revert.

[EmCatlyn]

Regarding the speculation that after Josh gets out of prison, JB will house and provide for Josh and Anna and the kids, I want to suggest that a lot may change while Josh is in prison.  We are estimating he will be “inside” for around 10 years, I think.  Will JB be able to support Josh and family 10 years from now?  

The way things look right now,  a huge amount of money is going into Josh’s defense, and there is no more money coming from TLC.   JB has other family members to look after, and it is not clear how much income he has from investments and so forth.  So, as we have discussed before, the money may be tight.

There is also the fact that JB isn’t getting any younger.  Even if he can support Josh’s family, will he be able to monitor and control Josh the way some of us speculate he would have to do to “protect the brand”?

It is possible that 10 or 15 years from now is that another Duggar (John David?) will increasingly become responsible for doling out the money and calling Josh to account.

In addition, as Josh and Anna’s kids get older, they may be put to work and made responsible for providing for their branch of the family.  Specifically, I can see JB feeling that responsibility for Anna should rest on her sons as soon as they can pull their weight.

Honestly, I don’t know what it will be like, but I do know that 10 years from now will be a different reality for everyone.

 

 

[AussieKrissy]

7 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Once Josh is out, agree about house and financial support from JB for the rest of his days, there really isn't any other option unless JB/J'chelle want to see their grandkids starve.  Assuming that Anna stays, don't know if she will finally decide after all this to keep Josh on a very short leash, but certainly JB will do it.   Josh will be in prison for the rest of his life, it will just be different sorts of prisons.  

 

I dunno, I thought he would be on a very short leash after the last lots of scandals and look where he landed himself again. Unless he is watched 24/7 and never allowed near technology again he will sink them again. I don't think that is sustainable long term and what happens when JB's power fades? Anna is fucked Josh will fuck up again and again and again. 

[patsymae]

23 hours ago, mpheels said:

For most people, including mainstream Christians, this is true. One of the things that sets fundamentalist Christians apart is their belief that earthly consequences are irrelevant. As long as they ask God for forgiveness, they will get into heaven, and as long as they get into heaven, nothing at happens in this life actually matters. In fact, their ability to live through bad things and still believe/seek forgiveness makes them even better Christians. And if those bad things are consequences of their own actions, it’s satan’s fault for tempting them, but it’s all good because they are forgiven. It’s a pretty good deal if you can get past the cognitive dissonance.

One of my brothers became a fundie, He said the hardest thing for him to get his head past was that you could be the most horrible, evil person in this world if you accepted Jesus as your personal savior you would be saved, but if you were the most decent, kind, loving person in the world if you were a Buddhist you would go to hell for all eternity. He said it was hard for him to accept that. My response is it should be hard to accept that because it's ridiculous and disgusting.

Sigh,

1 minute ago, AussieKrissy said:

I dunno, I thought he would be on a very short leash after the last lots of scandals and look where he landed himself again. Unless he is watched 24/7 and never allowed near technology again he will sink them again. I don't think that is sustainable long term and what happens when JB's power fades? Anna is fucked Josh will fuck up again and again and again. 

OK I;m a dinosaur. Back in the dark ages the NJ prison system set aside a special unit for these kinds of abusers. It was the first of its kind.  The idea was well figure out how it happened and figure out what to do to make sure it doesn't happen again, And IIRC, what was learned is you just can't change these Mofos, You just cant.
People who work with that population here comment on therapy, etc., so is there really therapy that works.

[SassyPants]

7 hours ago, nokidsmom said:

Once Josh is out, agree about house and financial support from JB for the rest of his days, there really isn't any other option unless JB/J'chelle want to see their grandkids starve.  Assuming that Anna stays, don't know if she will finally decide after all this to keep Josh on a very short leash, but certainly JB will do it.   Josh will be in prison for the rest of his life, it will just be different sorts of prisons.  

ETA:  In a way, this is sad because honestly when Joshley went to the FRC, even though he wasn't qualified for anything other than being a Duggar, I thought that if he was serious about improving himself with education, job experience, whatever, that was the time to do it.   He blew it big time then, continues to do so to the point that I don't think there is any coming back for him.   There's not much for him in life now even if he manages to avoid going to jail.   If he was truly never on board with his parents' lifestyle, now he is completely trapped: with them, in NWA, with a wife who continues to have kids with him.   And that is also another sort of prison. 

This is one of the reasons why I think JB and M were such poor role models. What they showed and reinforced through their example is that their family was special. There is not one Duggar who is a self starter or inclined to sustained effort or hard work. These folks were bathed in entitlement and specialness. Jill is learning that in the real world, adults need to work hard to support themselves and their families. Joy and Austin flip houses, but are they licensed? As a teen, Jessa made chocolate chips cookies without measuring anything, and when GM Duggar told her that she needed to measure the ingredients, Jessa  blew her off. It’s always the easy way, hacks and Duggar time. Getting up early, working to support yourself, helping others, getting an education are all for suckers-

[feministxtian]

42 minutes ago, patsymae said:

One of my brothers became a fundie, He said the hardest thing for him to get his head past was that you could be the most horrible, evil person in this world if you accepted Jesus as your personal savior you would be saved, but if you were the most decent, kind, loving person in the world if you were a Buddhist you would go to hell for all eternity. He said it was hard for him to accept that. My response is it should be hard to accept that because it's ridiculous and disgusting.

I honestly do not believe that drivel for a minute. It says in the bible that God looks upon the heart. So, folks on this side of eternity can say whatever shit they want and make up whatever certainty they want, but the truth is, NOBODY knows what happens. I am of the opinion that professed religion is not as important as heart state. In other words, did you practice the things that are in the bible about how to relate to your fellow man? Like that whole "love one another" thing, that caring for the least of these thing, not hoarding your treasure here on earth, all that good stuff. I have my beliefs, but I realized long ago that the God I believe in is far wiser and far more just than I could ever be. A mere human cannot profess to know the mind of the infinite creator of the universe. It just don't work that way. 

[Bad Wolf]

Depending on where Josh ends up, I wonder if Anna will take M7 to visit. Imagine never seeing your father until you're10. The other littles will probably have no memory of him.

[EmCatlyn]

50 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

I honestly do not believe that drivel for a minute. It says in the bible that God looks upon the heart. So, folks on this side of eternity can say whatever shit they want and make up whatever certainty they want, but the truth is, NOBODY knows what happens. I am of the opinion that professed religion is not as important as heart state. In other words, did you practice the things that are in the bible about how to relate to your fellow man? Like that whole "love one another" thing, that caring for the least of these thing, not hoarding your treasure here on earth, all that good stuff. I have my beliefs, but I realized long ago that the God I believe in is far wiser and far more just than I could ever be. A mere human cannot profess to know the mind of the infinite creator of the universe. It just don't work that way. 

Agreed.  It is absolute nonsense that God would care more about whether you  “accept Jesus Christ as your savior” (or “follow the teachings of Mohammed,” or “venerate the Buddha” or “sacrifice to the ancestors” or whatever) than what kind of person you are and how you treat others.

This reminds me of the old joke about a newly arrived soul in heaven, who is getting the grand tour.  

It seems people from different religions hang out in different parts of heaven.  The tour points out the Catholics, hanging out with the Virgin Mary, and some Gospel-singing Baptists, and the  Society of Friends (Quakers) vibrating in  earnest prayer, etc.  Then they pass another area and the tour guide puts his finger to his lips and whispers, “Shh.  Lets be quiet while we pass.  These are the [insert self-righteous religion] and they think they are the only ones here.”

😉

 

Edited October 27, 2021 by EmCatlyn

[EmCatlyn]

54 minutes ago, Bad Wolf said:

Depending on where Josh ends up, I wonder if Anna will take M7 to visit. Imagine never seeing your father until you're10. The other littles will probably have no memory of him.

Maybe, if your father is Josh, it is better to have no memory of him.

I feel sorrier for the older ones, who will remember this difficult period and who may understand more than any kid should about what is going on.

What will be really hard for all the kids will be when their father comes out of prison.  For those who remember him, even those who have visited him a few times, this is not going to be the father they remember.  For those who hardly remember their father, this will be a stranger.

[Maggie Mae]

8 hours ago, Idlewild said:

I don’t know about the US but in England CSA offenders have a court order placed on them when they are sentenced which has various prohibitions and requirements- for CSA images it involves registering all devices with the police and agreeing to police installed software to monitor their use. Any breaches of the terms is a criminal offence. There’s no point relying on his family to monitor him- unless his issues are addressed with therapy he will always revert.

In the US there are restrictions as well. Most SOs can't have a smart phone, they aren't allowed to use the internet, and they have to get a job, but to get a job they have to use the internet, so they have to be monitored by going to a job placement agency or a reentry center. All formerly incarcerated persons have to jump through a lot of hoops (some for good reason, many just because our society likes to continue to punish people after they served their sentence) and Josh will be no different. They might move Josh to a federal prison where Anna and fam can't visit him. He might be released from that prison in another state, and part of his parole could be that he has to check in with a parole officer in that area, and can't leave for X number of days or even years. He'll have to get a job, and the jobs that hire formerly incarcerated people are going to be food service. 

[QuiverFullofBooks]

13 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

In the US there are restrictions as well. Most SOs can't have a smart phone, they aren't allowed to use the internet, and they have to get a job, but to get a job they have to use the internet, so they have to be monitored by going to a job placement agency or a reentry center. All formerly incarcerated persons have to jump through a lot of hoops (some for good reason, many just because our society likes to continue to punish people after they served their sentence) and Josh will be no different. They might move Josh to a federal prison where Anna and fam can't visit him. He might be released from that prison in another state, and part of his parole could be that he has to check in with a parole officer in that area, and can't leave for X number of days or even years. He'll have to get a job, and the jobs that hire formerly incarcerated people are going to be food service. 

They also can’t be around other people’s children, which is hugely restrictive, especially if everyone you know is in a fertility cult.

[feministxtian]

19 minutes ago, Maggie Mae said:

They might move Josh to a federal prison where Anna and fam can't visit him. He might be released from that prison in another state, and part of his parole could be that he has to check in with a parole officer in that area, and can't leave for X number of days or even years. He'll have to get a job, and the jobs that hire formerly incarcerated people are going to be food service. 

When prisoners are released from fed time, they go to a halfway house. That may not be near their home, but it may be. His job prospects depend on his educational achievements while locked up. To be released from the halfway house, he will have to have a job, a couple of bucks put away (I don't remember how much), and he will be on parole/probation. His will probably be supervised with conditions due to the offence. If he's on supervised probation/parole, he will probably either wear a GPS locator and have to notify his PO if he goes out of a certain radius and there ain't no vacations out of state w/o permission of his PO. His probation/parole will probably also involved continued mental health treatment, drug/alcohol testing and maybe other conditions. He will probably have to register as a SO and may be restricted as to contact with minors including his own children. He still may not be allowed to be around his children unsupervised or overnight. 

When he gets to wherever he will be incarcerated, there will be a plan drawn up for while he is locked up and he will have to follow it to the letter, including education, mental health and SO treatment. He's in for a BIG surprise in the big house. Ain't nobody gonna give a damn that he's Josh Duggar. 

Oh, and food service is NOT the only job he can get. IF he takes advantage of educational opportunities, there will be job placement help upon his release to the halfway house. My daughter had an AAS in graphic design, when she got out of prison she got a job as a graphic designer. As you all know, she now has a BS and MS in IT, is sitting for the Professional Project Manager test in December and is now making about 6 figures.  

Edited October 27, 2021 by feministxtian

[SassyPants]

2 minutes ago, QuiverFullofBooks said:

They also can’t be around other people’s children, which is hugely restrictive, especially if everyone you know is in a fertility cult.

Josh wouldn’t care one fig about any of that. If it wasn’t for the loss of freedom, fast food and lack of unaccounted for time, I don’t think that Josh Duggar would actually mind prison. Does anyone really think he’s going to miss The TTH, the kids, Anna or his extended family? I just think back to how he answered those questions on his Ashley Madison questionnaire. He was 100% checked out in 2015, and I’d venture even more so now. IMO, he’s a few ticks shy of fully functioning.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

6 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Josh wouldn’t care one fig about any of that. If it wasn’t for the loss of freedom, fast food and lack of unaccounted for time, I don’t think that Josh Duggar would actually mind prison. Does anyone really think he’s going to miss The TTH, the kids, Anna or his extended family? I just think back to how he answered those questions on his Ashley Madison questionnaire. He was 100% checked out in 2015, and I’d venture even more so now. IMO, he’s a few ticks shy of fully functioning.

Oh, I agree. But their whole circle has tons of kids, so he won’t be able to get even minimal social interactions. Maybe he won’t care, or maybe it’s a good excuse not to hang around being shunned.