(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[Alisamer]

21 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Maybe JB could employ her, like he did Ben.

I would not be the least bit surprised if she already does some of the work Ben did, like cleaning. But she wouldn't get paid for it, or have it be considered a job. She's a woman. Women are supposed to scrub toilets, in JB's world. He paid Ben to do stuff because he's got a penis, and was courting one of his daughters. A daughter-in-law would just be expected to do that sort of thing, no compensation expected.

[Mama Mia]

I don’t think Josh going to jail is going to make one bit of difference to Anna’s financial status, other than the inability to get free fancy kids clothes off Instagram. Since the 1st scandal the family has been living off whatever JB and Michelle provide. I’m sure if they want her to, they could have Anna contribute by doing some data entry or other office work around their many rentals. Or help with coordinating work schedules. There is a lot of paperwork type work that can be done from home with what they do. Especially as the kids get older. She has a house on the property - that we call the windowless warehouse- but they do seem to have remodeled a great deal of it into a guest house. There are endless household goods and clothes available. Really it’s just food/diapers/soap etc….. and JB is certainly financially stable enough to provide that.

Personally, I’d keep homeschooling the kids, at least for the next couple years. And if I wanted to switch to public/private school I’d maybe start with the younger ones. No way I’d throw a 12 year old  age M who has been homeschooled her whole life into a Jr High full of iPhones who know all about her pervy dad. 

[feministxtian]

47 minutes ago, Bassett Lady said:

The Springfield Arkansas community college has a Respiratory Therapist program. It is an associates degree that leads to full certification. 

Does Anna have the educational background to succeed w/o a bunch of remedial classes?

[goddefinedcalves]

7 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

Does Anna have the educational background to succeed w/o a bunch of remedial classes?

Very doubtful. I can't find that particular CC's program requirements, but a different respiratory therapy program requires intermediate algebra and biology as prerequisites (as well as English and history), and I imagine Anna has nowhere near the background required for even those high-school level classes.

[feministxtian]

1 minute ago, goddefinedcalves said:

Very doubtful. I can't find that particular CC's program requirements, but a different respiratory therapy program requires intermediate algebra and biology as prerequisites (as well as English and history), and I imagine Anna has nowhere near the background required for even those high-school level classes.

Intermediate Algebra is probably close to my current college algebra class and it's killing me. I also doubt she has the ability to succeed at Comp 1.

[fluffernutter]

I can't see Anna furthering her education or working outside the home any more than I can see her getting a divorce. She wasn't raised to think women should work (outside the home), her husband wasn't raised to think it either, and I think she will "submit to his authority" 🤢 even when he's behind bars. 

[Mama Mia]

13 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

I can't see Anna furthering her education or working outside the home any more than I can see her getting a divorce. She wasn't raised to think women should work (outside the home), her husband wasn't raised to think it either, and I think she will "submit to his authority" 🤢 even when he's behind bars. 

Sadly I think it’s worse than that. I think even most of her fundamentalist social circle would be supportive of her leaving Josh in these circumstances — but I have a sinking feeling she’ll fall for his fancy envelope prison promises if she starts to have doubts. Hope not. But her showing up at court, and all the rumors about her frequent visits - aren’t good signs. There are unfortunately  a lot of women - fundamentalist or not - who put a man ahead of their kids safety. 

[NakedKnees]

I wonder if Anna will become the new Jana around the Duggar FJ forum... so much hope that there is something better going on in her mind and with her goals than what the actual reality probably is. 

If Josh goes to prison for 7+ years, I can see her getting used to the still-fundie lifestyle she would have without him. She'd be sort of like a single mom, in the way people have been hoping she would become since 2015, but potentially with the validation of her community. Who knows how much she'd even be expected to visit Josh. The real struggle would begin with his reintroduction to his family and society. She could even have another baby when he gets out.

Also, I still feel a little uncomfortable assuming he will be going to prison. I hope he pleas guilty or is found guilty at trial, and I understand that those with legal experience overwhelmingly think it's the most likely outcome. But ever since the 2016 Trump election, I feel uncomfortable assuming that what seems like the obviously right thing will actually occur.

[FiveAcres]

4 minutes ago, NakedKnees said:

Also, I still feel a little uncomfortable assuming he will be going to prison. I hope he pleas guilty or is found guilty at trial, and I understand that those with legal experience overwhelmingly think it's the most likely outcome. But ever since the 2016 Trump election, I feel uncomfortable assuming that what seems like the obviously right thing will actually occur.

This. 1000 times this.

[Alisamer]

32 minutes ago, FiveAcres said:

This. 1000 times this.

Truth. It seems like the slimier a person is, the more likely they are to slither out of having any consequences for their actions. I'm still hoping Josh does some time, what he's accused of is abhorrent. And frankly being in a place with structure, educational opportunities, therapy, non-Biblically-enforced rules, no dad to whitewash his mistakes, and surrounded by people who aren't fellow white fundies might help him attempt to become a better person. But I won't be surprised if he gets some house-arrest or probation only setup because he's a "good" christian white man. I'll be disappointed, but not surprised.

[Dandruff]

2 hours ago, Bassett Lady said:

They are nuts about almost everything, but even they find Josh abhorrent.  They are worried about what he might have done to his children and want him locked away from civilization. They throw around words like unrepentant, degenerate, and quote Romans 1 and classify him as a reprobate.

I know a woman who's a practicing Southern Baptist and asked one day whether she had heard of the Duggars and their show.  She asked whether that was the family with the degenerate son.  Word has, apparently, gotten around.

If Josh goes to prison I expect the rest of the family to avoid any mention of him.  The more they appear separated the better the chance they have of maintaining their wholesome reputation.  JB's funding of legal help for Josh may appear to be what parents do for their child, or simply the Christian thing to do, but if/when there's a guilty verdict I believe doubts will return.  I'm sure all of the teens and adults know to avoid even the appearance of questionable behavior.  If another Duggar was to get into trouble beyond a traffic ticket then people may start questioning their parenting and the overall robustness of their standards.

I believe the family trust has plenty of money and that Josh's legal costs, so far, are much less than the cost of an airplane or many of their rental properties.  I don't think it's putting any particular strain on them, not that it's anything to be happy about.  I believe they're primarily feeling the strain on their reputation and any potential benefits/advantages they may receive based on that reputation.

[quiversR4hunting]

Anna does need to start standing on her own financially, however, I don't think she will she will. I think she will be made a martyr for ebil non-KJV people hate the "real" Christians. 

Remember, she has a degree from a christian college in "early child education" and she could get a job at a homeschooling co-op (if there is a paid position as director or such) or at "the right kind" of christian school. (I don't know what school she attended, I couldn't find it on-line.) Someone on Reddit thinks she went to the now defunct College Plus. Lo and behold, there is a KJV private school in Fayetteville. I bet she could get a job here: https://www.fayettevillechristianschool.com/statement-of-faith/ they use ABEKA and Bob Jones Press curriculums and to quote their website: "Authorized King James Version of the Bible as our textbook."

If the kids went to this school, I doubt the kids would be bullied, especially since JimBob said that Josh's behavior is normal in their world. 

[Bassett Lady]

2 hours ago, feministxtian said:

Does Anna have the educational background to succeed w/o a bunch of remedial classes?

I have tutored children who did Abeka curriculum, which is based out of Pensacola Christian College. While they all had “wack a doodle” beliefs they were all mathematically competent, could read at or above grade level, write a coherent paragraph, and would be able to move into a community college after graduation. 
 

I have never worked with any IBLP students, nor evaluated their curriculum. I know her parents are part of IBLP, but I don’t know if they were exclusively using their curriculum. 
 

One nice thing about moms with kids who have been homeschooling is that, even if they haven’t been doing high level computational endeavors, they have been regularly utilizing fundamental skills. 
 

Even if she did need a year or two of remediation, a community college is equipped to provide that kind of support. 

[mpheels]

Community colleges are usually set up to meet people where they are, and bring them up to speed for any available program. Anna has a GED, and doesn’t she have a certificate (or associates?) in early childhood education? That means she at least knows how school works. If she really wanted to, she could take the necessary classes to become an RT or achieve another similar credential for healthcare, but I’m not sure she is well suited to working in healthcare. She could become a teachers assistant, which seems better aligned with her personality/interests and carries much less liability than an in-home daycare.
 

But she won’t do any of that, because it requires actual work and acknowledge that life isn’t perfect as is.

[gustava]

I don't think Anna will do anything other than what JB tells her to do.  Have we ever, ever, ever seen her make an independent decision? 

[EmCatlyn]

9 hours ago, allyisyourpally5 said:

Anna in reality needs to put the oldest kids in school and get any kind of day job that ideally includes some level of health insurance. How is Arkansas for welfare? Would she qualify for any help towards housing? Or is their a property in her name under all these dealings? 
 

I know this won’t actually happen. I highly doubt she has made any sort of plan for a guilty verdict. I doubt any Duggar has.

All our discussion about what Anna “could” do are moot because she won’t do any of the things we suggest.   It would not occur to her to try to get paid work or housing assistance.  If she ever applies for EBT, it will be because either Josh or JB tells her to. (I doubt they will.) Otherwise she will continue to rely on the charity of friends and family.

This goes beyond her commitment to her marriage and her role as fundie martyr.  Anna doesn’t see the world the way we do.  She isn’t going to look for the kind of solutions we would look for.  

[Mela99]

Even on the off chance that Anna realized she married a stale ham sandwich of a man and left, I don’t see her doing anything other than going back to Florida to be under her father’s eye.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, EmCatlyn said:

All our discussion about what Anna “could” do are moot because she won’t do any of the things we suggest.   It would not occur to her to try to get paid work or housing assistance.  If she ever applies for EBT, it will be because either Josh or JB tells her to. (I doubt they will.) Otherwise she will continue to rely on the charity of friends and family.

This goes beyond her commitment to her marriage and her role as fundie martyr.  Anna doesn’t see the world the way we do.  She isn’t going to look for the kind of solutions we would look for.  

This is a crime and a shame for a neurotypical adult. Criminal what her parents did to her what and JB and M continue to enable. Such BS. She is a grown woman with the responsibility for 7 young children. This is wrong on all levels( the Kellers, the Duggars and Anna’s)-

[mpheels]

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if JB did instruct Anna to apply for every bit of assistance for which she qualifies. She’s never had an income of her own. Josh’s “work” history is questionable, but he has been the sole earner on paper. He may still be on the family payroll, but that income will vaporize as soon as he’s in prison. Anna would qualify for SNAP, WIC, TANF, and Medicaid. If she ever sent kids to public school, they would get free breakfast and lunch. Anna will meet the Arkansas definition of “single parent” as long as Josh is incarcerated, which makes the work requirements less stringent Assuming Anna’s circumstances stay the same, she can get TANF for 2 years in AR, SNAP for 3 years, WIC until youngest M turns 5, and Medicaid until the youngest turns 18. It isn’t a ton of money and won’t last forever, but it’s enough for JB to take an interest.

[Bad Wolf]

The first thing would be to find out what Anna wants. I'm guessing it's not going back to school or getting a job. It may take years for her to realize the mess she's in, and that she will never have freedom as long as she sticks with the Duggars and IBLP.

[coffeebean7]

I think most public benefits require you to disclose assets, not just income. So I doubt Anna would qualify for anything, even if she applied. 

 

[zee_four]

7 hours ago, FiveAcres said:

This. 1000 times this.

Sadly it's been that way for much much longer than since Trump was elected. The entire criminal justice system is broken. The example I used of the rural mountain county with a wealthy ski town I grew up in of the drunk driver who fled the scene leaving the man he hit to almost die only to call his BMW dealership (or whatever fancy car it was) then his lawyer but not even 911 anonymously and the judge said he wouldn't allow a felony charge or prison time to be given because it would impact the defendant's ability to make money. He claimed it was so he could pay some of his victims expenses but he can do that from jail with his existing income and then be a broke felon like he deserves.

 

That is just one of countless times where local area judges make incredibly biased, unfair and outrageous rulings, rejections of pleas, additional charges and sentencing because of their beliefs. The worst part is it's not illegal. Same with local prosecutors with overcharging, lying on the stand, etc. as long as they're very tight with the local judge, which is common in smaller and/or more rural jurisdictions where there's only 1 or 2 judges and 1 or 2 prosecutors. Like one of the cops in my case kept saying my friend overdosed on heroin. When my lawyer stood up and said here's the coroner report that says he died of multiple drug intoxication due to long term drug abuse and the cop said well they told me something different and the judge allowed that. Same when my lawyer tried to bring up how the police came to me as the victim of a violent crime and the prosecutor objected and both they and the cops under oath said it was a lie, I just made it up. etc. I had copies of the hospital records, the CBI rape kit and even the doctor who I first saw and who called the police and was there when they showed up but the judge ruled that none of that was admissible to the proceedings and that was that.

 

Sure you can challenge all these things, but 1) it costs even more money and a ton of it at that like  more than the cost of representation for the original trial in its entirett 2) it can take years and years so if you're in prison serving your sentence already you're stuck its not like you're allowed to hold on sentencing in the meantime and 3) if you have the money and time and it makes it to the appeals court guess who decides its merrits? Other judges who are not likely to challenge another judges ruling unless there's extenuating circumstances. Its really a moot point. But it does make people who have never been caught up in and destroyed by the so called criminal "justice" system or knows those who have, feel good about the system and more likely to not believe offenders objections have any validity but instead are just complaints of guilty people who don't want to face the "consequences of their actions".

 

Most people take pleas despite their innocence or other mitigating circumstances because they're facing ridiculously serious charges, its pretty standard to overcharge so people plead out as a time and money saver for the county/city/state and is somehow legal. Judges have final say on sentences even if there is a plea barging in place with the prosecutor. The amount of judicial discrestion that's allowed is frightening yet when you bring it up most people aren't sympathetic at all and blame the person whose rights are being stripped away and violated for "getting into the situation in the first place".  It's a fact of life for marginalized groups, such as those who are low income and especially people of color.

 

Trump was definitely frightening though especially in how he upped the snte and brought that level of "justice" to the federal level.

[mpheels]

23 minutes ago, coffeebean7 said:

I think most public benefits require you to disclose assets, not just income. So I doubt Anna would qualify for anything, even if she applied. 

 

But the only assets that count when assessing Anna’s eligibility for benefits are those that belong to Anna and Josh. What assets does she have in her own name? What does Josh own out right? JB owns the house they live in. Not sure if Josh actually owns the car lot, but it can’t be worth much. It’s a small plot of land and a prefab building with a couple dozen used cars of questionable quality. Josh can easily sell it to JB, and maybe even for fair market value so Josh can use the money for legal fees. That would be a completely legal way of making any assets disappear without JB actually spending/losing anymore than he already was.

[EmCatlyn]

2 hours ago, mpheels said:

I actually wouldn’t be surprised if JB did instruct Anna to apply for every bit of assistance for which she qualifies. She’s never had an income of her own. Josh’s “work” history is questionable, but he has been the sole earner on paper. He may still be on the family payroll, but that income will vaporize as soon as he’s in prison. Anna would qualify for SNAP, WIC, TANF, and Medicaid. If she ever sent kids to public school, they would get free breakfast and lunch. Anna will meet the Arkansas definition of “single parent” as long as Josh is incarcerated, which makes the work requirements less stringent Assuming Anna’s circumstances stay the same, she can get TANF for 2 years in AR, SNAP for 3 years, WIC until youngest M turns 5, and Medicaid until the youngest turns 18. It isn’t a ton of money and won’t last forever, but it’s enough for JB to take an interest.

I guess JB would have to balance greed against it getting out that Anna is getting government aid. (I always understood the Duggars were opposed to it.)  I agree that the money might be a big temptation.

2 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

The first thing would be to find out what Anna wants. I'm guessing it's not going back to school or getting a job. It may take years for her to realize the mess she's in, and that she will never have freedom as long as she sticks with the Duggars and IBLP.

Well, as far as we know, Anna does not want to go to school, get a job, or “freedom” as we understand it.  That’s why all this discussion of what Anna “could do” seems disconnected from reality.

[Cults-r-us]

43 minutes ago, EmCatlyn said:

I guess JB would have to balance greed against it getting out that Anna is getting government aid. (I always understood the Duggars were opposed to it.)  I agree that the money might be a big temptation.

Well, as far as we know, Anna does not want to go to school, get a job, or “freedom” as we understand it.  That’s why all this discussion of what Anna “could do” seems disconnected from reality.

3 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

The first thing would be to find out what Anna wants. I'm guessing it's not going back to school or getting a job. It may take years for her to realize the mess she's in, and that she will never have freedom as long as she sticks with the Duggars and IBLP.

People who have loss want one thing: to get back what they lost. Anna wants her life back as Fundie royalty, to be on tv and to have long years and many blessings with her beloved Smugger. I suspect she hasn't been able to process the enormity of her loss this go-around. Josh will have to be in jail before she can accept his incarceration. Until then, she can't even consider alternative future plans.