(Possible CW: CSA) Josh & Anna 35: Embattled in Spiritual Warfare!

[Mama Mia]

15 hours ago, Jackie3 said:

Spanked? They most likely hit them with PVC piping. In their first book, they recommended the Pearls "To Train Up a Child" which recommends that method of "discipline." Plus, fundies generally believe in using a rod (and I believe the police report quotes one of the older girls confirming this). Don't minimize it by calling it spanking, children have died at the hands of parents using the Pearl's "discipline" techniques.

Was Josh allowed to use PVC piping on his younger siblings? I do not know, but I suspect he was pretty removed from most childrearing. I suspect Jana did, though, and maybe she still does. Josie is only 11.

I've always wondered why this aspect of the Duggars ideology has gotten so little attention. They do their best to hide it, but "correction" of children is a huge part of their belief system.

I think it's been codified too.

I think part of the problem is that in their state, and quite a few others, public schools are allowed to (and do) hit kids with wooden boards, so their behavior is seen as within “normal” range. 

[Not that josh's mom]

1 hour ago, church_of_dog said:

I had been of the understanding that the hands/feet photos were standard procedure in [at least some categories of] CSAM cases, for the purposes of trying to identify the creators of CSA material, not to compare against photos taken *from* his computer.

I seriously doubt Josh has been involved in creating this stuff but LE doesn't know that, and certainly wouldn't just assume it.  They check just in case, in my uninformed opinion.

I think they will compare his formal hands/feet photos to CSAM in their database (probably not limited to what he was found with, but all they have in file) and nothing more will happen (unless they do find a match, which as I said I think is highly unlikely).

 

 

The images that were found on Josh's computer were well known and previously identified images from what I understood from several years ago. Those images were well known by prosecuters. I dont think that the photos of his hands and feet were to be used to prove he was involved in making the images  but maybe to prove he was at the computer during the download. That's the only reason that makes sense to me.

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

6 hours ago, Snarkasarus Rex said:

You’re forgetting Mack is 12 now! She can handle the household while Anna is playing the role of dutiful wife. 
 

 

Good point. Wasn't Jana running the house and in charge of childcare by age 10? 

6 hours ago, Tatar-tot said:

No matter how you look at it, a trial costs an agency (Along with the American 🇺🇸 Tax Payer) a tremendous amount of time and financial resources from their annual budget.  

I wonder where I can donate $ for this cause?

[just_ordinary]

I don’t think Josh’s standing in his circle will change if he pleads out guilty or maintains stating his innocence till whatever end. Those people have enough years of brainwashing and logic twisting to embrace him still. 
Either as a persecuted Christen or a victim of Satan and/or finding back to Jesus. I mean if Jesus forgives him (and when he re-accepts Jesus into his heart he will be forgiven) who are you not to follow suit? 
Even if they are underlying resentments, I can see people glossing over and still socialising with him. 
All those phrases about “rotten fruit”, and what not only stand against the rest of the world. They are not applied in the same way when it’s one of them. The family will probably have very little problems in their circles as well. Just the heathens (TLC and the public) are mean by cancelling them. Their biggest problem is the missing money and stage through the show. Now we will see if JB’s empire is solid enough to provide income and jobs for several big families. 

They won’t be shunned and there will be enough families happy to have their children marry a Duggar spouse (I specifically think about getting M and JB as quite influential parents in law to your child not necessarily the spouse themselves).

Even if he pleads out, some will say he only did it because he wanted to spare/protect his family or because he wouldn’t have gotten a fair trial.

That’s my sad and resigned view on how this plays out for the Duggar’s.

[So-Virgin-It-Hurts]

4 hours ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

That is my thinking. A person’s hands are pretty unique. However they can change over time. So pictures of his hands today might look a little different compared to 2 years ago. Right now I have a bandaid on my finger that would make it look unique but it wouldn’t be there 2 years from now. Same with hang nails and size (due to weight gain or loss).

Wasn't it noted somewhere that Josh has a unique scar on his left hand? I seem to remember that but maybe I made it up.

[BensAllergies]

30 minutes ago, So-Virgin-It-Hurts said:

Wasn't it noted somewhere that Josh has a unique scar on his left hand? I seem to remember that but maybe I made it up.

That’s what I remember reading. Faulkner, one of the agents on the case, has taken part in the investigations of over 1,000 CSA cases. When they were booking Josh, Faulkner noticed a scar on his hand and asked if a photo could be taken. The other agent, whose last name is escaping me but I believe starts with an A, snapped photos using a phone.

From that description I got the sense that it was one of those snap decisions Faulkner made in light of his vast experience who thought, “This info could be useful one day but could be nothing.”

[Jana814]

I have a feeling that Josh thinks he going to get all the charges dropped. He’s probably wondering why everyone is making a big deal about all of this. 

[Jackie3]

35 minutes ago, Jana814 said:

I have a feeling that Josh thinks he going to get all the charges dropped. He’s probably wondering why everyone is making a big deal about all of this. 

By now, I think his lawyers have told him otherwise. 

[Jana814]

22 minutes ago, Jackie3 said:

By now, I think his lawyers have told him otherwise. 

I would hope. They probably told him but that doesn’t mean he believes them. 

[Bastet]

 Does Josh have any social life that we know of? Given that not even his siblings seem to be close to him, he may have been leading an isolated, lonely life for many years now. 
   He’s perhaps already in a prison of sorts. 

[Idlewild]

5 minutes ago, Bastet said:

 Does Josh have any social life that we know of? Given that not even his siblings seem to be close to him, he may have been leading an isolated, lonely life for many years now. 
   He’s perhaps already in a prison of sorts. 

I think it’s hard to know. His siblings certainly don’t include them on their social media posts but a) they don’t seem close and b) most of them are trying to monetise their accounts to some extent and he’s toxic.

Anna mainly posted stuff about family activities on her Instagram so it’s not obvious if he had socialising beyond family nights and trips to Silver Dollar City.

He was seen with friends when he had visits at Jesus Jail so it may be he has a group of peers he mixes with. When he was that the Rodrigues wedding last year, he stepped up and was MC, so I don’t think he’s a wallflower.

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Idlewild said:

I think it’s hard to know. His siblings certainly don’t include them on their social media posts but a) they don’t seem close and b) most of them are trying to monetise their accounts to some extent and he’s toxic.

Anna mainly posted stuff about family activities on her Instagram so it’s not obvious if he had socialising beyond family nights and trips to Silver Dollar City.

He was seen with friends when he had visits at Jesus Jail so it may be he has a group of peers he mixes with. When he was that the Rodrigues wedding last year, he stepped up and was MC, so I don’t think he’s a wallflower.

He has soon to be 7 kids and lives with his parents. There is no time for a social life. 

[Meggo]

On 10/22/2021 at 4:43 PM, TeaGrannie said:

@Meggo have you tried the cereal aisle? Near oatmeal and cream of wheat? 

I haven’t yet. I know my little market in town won’t have it (they are convenient for last minute grocery runs but not much else- unless you are looking for British food). But maybe one of the other bigs stores in the area will have it.

[Tatar-tot]

6 hours ago, So-Virgin-It-Hurts said:

Good point. Wasn't Jana running the house and in charge of childcare by age 10? 

I wonder where I can donate $ for this cause?

You all ready did - the IRS runs the go fund me account…..it is called Federal Income Tax Withholding!!!

[Sullie06]

On 10/14/2021 at 6:19 PM, Letgo said:

I did some reading on teen sexual abuse about 2-3 years ago and one source said that if teens get proper treatment at the time the rate of reoffending is 3%. Josh never got that when he was 15. I'm not saying he has done anything physical with children but he clearly has issues with sex. (I meant recently and was not referencing the abuse he committed as a young teen.) He's awaiting trial on child porn charges, he signed up for a site intended to enable affairs for married people, he has cheated on his wife, and has been accused of assault by a sex worker, I think? So he is definitely not living the life of a devoted young Christian husband.

I really wish Josh could get some secular treatment that doesn't view this simply as sin and as Josh letting Satan in his life. It certainly IS sin, but he needs psychological help. Didn't someone post an explanation from a former Gothard-raised young woman who said they view sex abuse and child sex abuse more as the fault of the victim-or something similar? 

I agree with this, treatment is key in preventing re-offending behaviors and it has to be a specialized treatment that deal with adolescent sex offenders. The program we have is very intensive. And they take it very seriously. If you don't complete they will send you to impatient treatment and if the family of an offender doesn't cooperate they file a CPS report. 

[Sullie06]

On 10/16/2021 at 1:42 AM, Bluebirdbluebell said:

I never said Jill isn't making progress, but Jill is not the opposite of her parents. She also doesn't believe in birth control. She believes in "natural planning" and limiting her family size, but she also thinks hormonal birth control causes miscarriages.I agree Jill has made progress in her life, but she gets too much credit for not being her parents when she continues to act like them and follow them to some extent. YMMV

Barrier methods are still birth control, which I get the impression is the route they are going, after watching their Q & A about birth control. That is still a drastic change from her parents beliefs of have as many children as humanly possible, I mean as many children as god blesses them with. Plus, a lot of women are not fans of hormonal birth control, so I can't fault Jill there. 

Edited October 25, 2021 by Sullie06

[PinkGreyBrown]

20 hours ago, Howl said:

My thinking is that it's not what they'll hear, but what they'll SEE as CSA images are introduced as evidence.  (IANAL, but I'm assuming images will be shown.)

I did some digging around & apparently they do show excerpts of CSA material to the jury. It was not clear to me from the article if the whole courtroom was exposed to the images or just the jury, lawyers, judge, & defendant.

In any case, I expect that JimBlob & Mechelle will duly hustle off on another trip with their youngest for the duration of the trial, that no siblings will attend, & that maybe Anna will show up briefly for the opening & closing. Anna's gonna have a newborn for whom to care, that should limit her ability to sit in a courtroom for hours & hours, being exposed to material that could make her hate her life (more than whatever the baseline is). I just don't see any of them willingly engaging in behaviors that'll make them have second thoughts about anything. That doesn't seem like who they are. The whole fundie-family thing is to stick fingers in their ears & scream la-la-la-la-I-can't-hear-you at the top of their lungs, metaphorically speaking.

& even if they saw the imagery, it's still just the evil entrapment of their righteous selves. It's just more sin that Satan is trying to stick on them, more evidence that they're worthy of the Devil's attention because they're so righteous. Their sin-flattening habits will ensure that they see it as merely 'awful porn' like all the other 'awful porn' they ostensibly avoid. We've seen nothing from the Duggars or any other fundies to suggest they see sexual abuse of children as particularly horrible or noteworthy, it's just more sin. Sin is sin, is what they say in their sin-flattening way. (Structural stuff like that is why abusers love them some God-bothering. Can do horrendous stuff & it's just more sin, to be forgiven.)

Will siblings & grandchildren ultimately peel away from the family cult? Probably at least some of them, but also prolly not for a while still to come. & it'll look more like the Jill-Dillard process has looked, very slow baby steps. Marginal stuff. Josh's crimes may or may not have much to do with that for anyone except Anna & the M-children, but in the immediate moment I'd bet Smuggar's inner circle'll just turn this whole thing into fuel for the culture war. Josh sitting in prison will just be an ongoing persecution of poor lil fundies like themselves.

Edited October 25, 2021 by PinkGreyBrown
extraneous word

[Angelface]

If Josh is found guilty, and has to serve several years in prison, perhaps he will use that time to improve his education and reevaluate his whole life. Upon release he may choose to move away from fundamentalism. One can but hope!

[PinkGreyBrown]

Thing is, atheists as a class aren't gonna forgive Smuggar his sins. Agnostics aren't. I sure as hell don't want him on TeamAtheism, fwtw. But plenty of Christians will, it's part of the brand. & it's also a big reason Christianity is full of abusive terrible persons. All forgiveness for all sins. It's putting out a dinner bell for abusers. & the degree to which Christians don't grapple with that reality is a big part of why all this mess that gets much discussed around this site. Sin-flattening is a feature, not a bug, for abusers. All sins forgiven is a feature, not a bug, for Doug Wilson, Doug Philips, PP, Nogs, JRod, Smuggars, et al. It's justification for doing whatever they want cuz God'll forgive them in the end, they know, they're buds. Blergh.

[socalrules]

I think if Josh is found guilty, or ultimately pleads guilty, he will double down on fundamentalism once he is out of prison, not that I think he ever truly cared much about religion. Josh will likely have register as a sex offender which will limit his options when it comes to finding a job. No matter what education he gets in prison, it is unlikely to be enough to find a job that will pay to support his eleventy kids without the financial help from his parents. Plus, Josh has always come across as extremely lazy, I don’t see prison helping him decide hard work is the way to go. My guess is he will serve his time, come out to live in a place owned by his parents and will “work” at whatever job his parents create for him. He will pretend to believe in whatever his parents want him to believe in so they pay his bills. Josh will never take the steps necessary to be a hardworking, independent person. It’s just not in his nature. 

[missy1228]

On 10/21/2021 at 6:39 PM, onekidanddone said:

Any law nerds here?

Does spousal privilege pertain to federal cases or is it just for state courts?

My understanding of law is limited to L&O SVU

Criminal defense attorney for 21 years here... don't practice in federal court, but the privilege is the same BUT the privilege belongs to the testifying spouse and not the defendant. Meaning, for example, if Anna *wanted* to testify, she could and Josh couldn't prevent her from doing so. He can't "not allow" her testify. But obviously the likelihood that Anna would suddenly get on the stand and spill all the tea is slim to none, but a person can dream, right!?!

[just_ordinary]

51 minutes ago, PinkGreyBrown said:

Thing is, atheists as a class aren't gonna forgive Smuggar his sins. Agnostics aren't. I sure as hell don't want him on TeamAtheism, fwtw. But plenty of Christians will, it's part of the brand. & it's also a big reason Christianity is full of abusive terrible persons. All forgiveness for all sins. It's putting out a dinner bell for abusers. & the degree to which Christians don't grapple with that reality is a big part of why all this mess that gets much discussed around this site. Sin-flattening is a feature, not a bug, for abusers. All sins forgiven is a feature, not a bug, for Doug Wilson, Doug Philips, PP, Nogs, JRod, Smuggars, et al. It's justification for doing whatever they want cuz God'll forgive them in the end, they know, they're buds. Blergh.

I would like to add- lots of Christians won’t forgive either. I know it seems all Protestant Christians in the US appear sometimes to be this fundamentalist kind of crazy, but I have been told not all are. And in general there are millions of Protestant Christians that have no problem being in this believe system but accept abortion, sex education, female empowerment, same sex attraction, contraception and so on without the need to lecture or try to change the rules. They can be fine between them believing things but others having other rules to go by. They also are able to think for themselves and decide to make their own choices and live in the real world like the rest of us all while being Christians. They realise the heathen world does not threaten their way of life.

So they will judge Josh just like the rest of us. Maybe put a prayer for his soul in if they feel generous.

Edited October 25, 2021 by just_ordinary

[feministxtian]

7 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

They can be fine between them believing things but others having other rules to go by. They also are able to think for themselves and decide to make their own choices and live in the real world like the rest of us all while being Christians. They realise the heathen world does not threaten their way of life.

I'm so glad someone recognized this! Fundamentalist Christians are a small subset of Christianity. In my tradition, we do not believe that our denomination will be the ONLY ones who are saved. No, that door is wide open! We practice open communion. There is a "statement of beliefs" put out by the General Conference, but if one goes to the Pew Surveys, one would find that the POV of the denomination slants more liberal than hard-core trunt. My congregation of not quite 300 people is very active in the community. Food banks, farmer's markets, medical care, taking care of other needs, these things are central to our church. Our Pastor does not get paid out of church offerings, he is paid by the Conference, so there's no reason to "cook the books". However, the utter generosity of the small congregation would blow you away! One family lost a child due to a tragic accident. Within a week, we had raised enough money to go to the family to let mom, dad and the family rest and deal with their grief w/o worrying about financial obligations for a couple of months. We've furnished apartments for refugees, we DO, not a whole lot of saying, but a lot of DOING. 

The "heathen" world doesn't threaten me one bit. I'm quite able to function in that world and still hold my beliefs. 

[Bad Wolf]

Forgiveness is fine, but it doesn't let you off the consequences of your actions. I can murder someone, be truly sorry, be forgiven, but I'm still going to prison. Just because you're forgiven, doesn't get you off the hook.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

5 hours ago, socalrules said:

I think if Josh is found guilty, or ultimately pleads guilty, he will double down on fundamentalism once he is out of prison, not that I think he ever truly cared much about religion. Josh will likely have register as a sex offender which will limit his options when it comes to finding a job. No matter what education he gets in prison, it is unlikely to be enough to find a job that will pay to support his eleventy kids without the financial help from his parents. Plus, Josh has always come across as extremely lazy, I don’t see prison helping him decide hard work is the way to go. My guess is he will serve his time, come out to live in a place owned by his parents and will “work” at whatever job his parents create for him. He will pretend to believe in whatever his parents want him to believe in so they pay his bills. Josh will never take the steps necessary to be a hardworking, independent person. It’s just not in his nature. 

I agree, but I think this time Jim Bob won’t even give him the pretend job, so that his brothers won’t have to put up with him and he won’t have an excuse to leave the house and go somewhere with internet access. He and Anna (god, I hope the kids will be grown) will live in a house owned by the family trust and receive an allowance. She will never let him out of her sight. He might prefer being in prison.