Messianics Becoming Jews?

[Witsec1]

So because I do believe something the rest of Jewish people don't than I'm not right that they weren't Jews, but G-d fearers? That doesn't make sense.

Don't the Lubavitchers believe their Rebbe to be the Messiah? and that he is coming back?

I don't believe all Jews are going to Hell.

I don't believe that's what she meant. She meant, you can't claim a kinship with these ancient God-fearers because they respected the Jewish interpretation of Torah. They did not reject one of the central tenets of Judaism that all Jews agree on, and then claim to respect Judaism and its teachers. The Lubavitchers also agree that Jesus was NOT the Messiah. For nearly 2,000 years, Jews have believed that belief in Jesus as Messiah is not compatible with Judaism. You can't reject their beliefs and then claim the legacy of Torah-observant Gentile.

[emmiedahl]

There are other examples of G-d made flesh in the Torah.

Genesis 18:1-3, 10

The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 10 Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.

Genesis 32:24-30

So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

What does this have to do with what we are discussing? I am starting to get the feeling that you are repeating what someone else has taught you without any analysis.

[TOBeliever-]

Can you describe their conversion process? Where did these conversions take place? Were they asked if they believed in Jesus/Yeshua? What is the difference between a Torah Observant Christian like yourself and a Christ-believer who goes through some type of conversion to "Messianic Judaism"? Why do they want to convert?

One friend went the way of Conervative Judaism and I think they attended courses and such but a few more were overseen by Orthodox conversions with the circumcision for the men and the mikvah with the beit din. I was personally involved with them at the time of their conversion but they can make aliyah to Israel if the choose.

The difference would be one is gentile and another Jewish, both believers in Yeshua ha'Mashiach. For some it is to have access to study, for others the desire to keep taharat ha-mishpachah, family purity, some feel like the Jerusalem council it is a given after studying Torah you will be ultimately led to conversion. I have considered it myself but my husband disagrees, feeling like Paul did that you should remain in the state you were before your believed in Yeshua. So a gentile remains a gentile and a Jew a Jew. But he also believes we should strive to understand Torah and live accordingly. Not because we have to, but because we choose to.

[Witsec1]

I ask again, were these "converts" asked about their Jesus-beliefs? What did they answer? Did the beit din who allowed the conversion fully understand their beliefs?

[TOBeliever-]

I don't believe that's what she meant. She meant, you can't claim a kinship with these ancient God-fearers because they respected the Jewish interpretation of Torah. They did not reject one of the central tenets of Judaism that all Jews agree on, and then claim to respect Judaism and its teachers. The Lubavitchers also agree that Jesus was NOT the Messiah. For nearly 2,000 years, Jews have believed that belief in Jesus as Messiah is not compatible with Judaism. You can't reject their beliefs and then claim the legacy of Torah-observant Gentile.

The Lubavitchers believe their Rebbe is the Messiah. The rest of Judaism doesn't agree, does that make them not Jewish?

The 13 tenets of Judasim weren't formulated until 12th century CE. They weren't immediately accepted either. They aren't now universally accepted, the only thing I can think of that is universally accepted by religious Jews would be the Sh'ma.

edited for error - were to weren't

[TOBeliever-]

I ask again, were these "converts" asked about their Jesus-beliefs? What did they answer? Did the beit din who allowed the conversion fully understand their beliefs?

In the Orthodox conversion they were asked and answered truthfully but in the conservative conversion they were not asked, though the Rabbi knew their beliefs.

[emmiedahl]

They aren't now universally accepted, the only thing I can think of that is universally accepted by religious Jews would be the Sh'ma.

It is also universally accepted by religious Jews that the Messiah has not come.

There's actually a lot of other stuff, but that is a big one we all have in common.

[TOBeliever-]

Jesus did teach that there is a hierarchy. He taught that and many other things that are incompatible with Judaism.

The Talmud states that all Israel has a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. However, not all "shares" are equal. A particularly righteous person will have a greater share in the Olam Ha-Ba than the average person. In addition, a person can lose his share through wicked actions. There are many statements in the Talmud that a particular mitzvah will guarantee a person a place in the Olam Ha-Ba, or that a particular sin will lose a person's share in the Olam Ha-Ba, but these are generally regarded as hyperbole, excessive expressions of approval or disapproval.

Nevertheless, we definitely believe that your place in the Olam Ha-Ba is determined by a merit system based on your actions, not by who you are or what religion you profess. In addition, we definitely believe that humanity is capable of being considered righteous in G-d's eyes, or at least good enough to merit paradise after a suitable period of purification.

Do non-Jews have a place in Olam Ha-Ba? Although there are a few statements to the contrary in the Talmud, the predominant view of Judaism is that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. Statements to the contrary were not based on the notion that membership in Judaism was required to get into Olam Ha-Ba, but were grounded in the observation that non-Jews were not righteous people. If you consider the behavior of the surrounding peoples at the time that the Talmud was written, you can understand the rabbis' attitudes. By the time of Rambam, the belief was firmly entrenched that the righteous of all nations have a share in the Olam Ha-Ba. http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

[TOBeliever-]

It is also universally accepted by religious Jews that the Messiah has not come.

There's actually a lot of other stuff, but that is a big one we all have in common.

Lubavitchers believe that their Rabbi is Messiah.

[Witsec1]

Do you understand that just as you mourn your friends who rejected Messiah to become truly Jewish, Jewish people mourn the loss of fellow Jews to Christian missionaries? Particularly since so many Jews have been lost to Christian persecution over the years?

[TOBeliever-]

What does this have to do with what we are discussing? I am starting to get the feeling that you are repeating what someone else has taught you without any analysis.

I was addressing :

[Witsec1]

And yes, Messianics are Christian missionaries. Christian missionaries in Jew's clothing.

[Witsec7]

I'm interested in where these beit dins are that approve conversions for jesus believers.

[Witsec1]

I'm interested in where these beit dins are that approve conversions for jesus believers.

Yes, me too.

[emmiedahl]

Lubavitchers believe that their Rabbi is Messiah.

That is a relatively new thing that is NOT accepted in the Jewish community.

[emmiedahl]

I'm interested in where these beit dins are that approve conversions for jesus believers.

At Messianic Temples, that is where.

[Witsec7]

At Messianic Temples, that is where.

Yea I found this.

"Process

The Messianic Jewish Simcha requires a recognized and somewhat standardized process or "examination" period. Here are the requirements:

The candidate only becomes an official candidate on the third request. At least a six month waiting period from first to third request.

The candidate must be actively participating in a Messianic Jewish synagogue.

The male candidate must be or have been circumcised.

The candidate must choose a Hebrew name.

The candidate must show ability to perform major Hebrew blessings.

The candidate must write out a full and clear account of their lifestyle as a Jew.

The candidate must have a publically witnessed Jewish mikveh.

The candidate should receive a certificate of Jewish conversion (this certificate will not mention faith in Messiah, so as not to confuse the purpose).

http://www.messianicbureau.org/synagogue/conversion.htm

[emmiedahl]

lol at "so as not to confuse the purpose."

What purpose would that be? Steeplejacking real temples?

[Witsec1]

But she said these converts are able to make aliyah to Israel, which wouldn't be possible with a Messianic conversion.

[emmiedahl]

If it is a traditional Jewish conversion, I am positive that they lied about the Jesus thing. They absolutely would be asked, and it would disqualify them.

[Witsec7]

I'm pretty convinced TOB is parroting stuff she's getting from websites and has no real clue how a conversion works.

I wish I'd read her blog before she shut the door.

[Beeks]

If it is a traditional Jewish conversion, I am positive that they lied about the Jesus thing. They absolutely would be asked, and it would disqualify them.

Since Lina is planning a traditional orthodox conversion, I can't wait till she blogs about how persecuted she is when the rabbis ask this and she is denied (she says she won't lie in her "Jewish Faith" post, sooooo)

[pomology]

Lubavitchers believe that their Rabbi is Messiah.

You sound like broken record, you crazy bitch (and for the record, I stand by what I said, calling Jews "non-believers" while stealing our customs is highly, highly anti-Semitic). Yes, Lubavichers believe their Rebbe (not Rabbi, big different there) is the Messiah. Because of other strains of Judaism will often not trust their authority when it comes to kashrut etc, so yes, they suffer a disconnect from the mainstream Jewish community because of their beliefs. Also, they were born Jewish, so if they ever decide that Menachem Mendel Schneerson wasn't the Messiah, they will be Jewish. You never were Jewish. There's a difference. There's also a difference between born Jews accepting Jesus as the Messiah and people like you.

[pomology]

I'm pretty convinced TOB is parroting stuff she's getting from websites and has no real clue how a conversion works.

I wish I'd read her blog before she shut the door.

Yeah, most of what she says sounds like parroting. I also find it incredibly difficult to understand what she is saying half the time.

[formergothardite]

I don't mourn them becoming Jewish, I mourn them rejecting Messiah. I know a number of believers in Yeshua who have converted to Judaism. This doesn't bother me at all.

Um, I'm beginning to feel like I've entered the Twilight Zone. People who practice real Judiasm, not the Messianic kind, don't believe in Jesus. So to get this straight, you think all the real Jews, who follow Judiasm and don't believe in Jesus have bad things coming for them when they die?