Messianics Becoming Jews?

[Witsec1]

Jewish Historian and contemporary of Yeshua - Josephus mentions that the Jews in Antioch "were constantly attracting to their religious ceremonies multitudes of Greek, and these they had in some measure incorporated with themselves." He also states that "But no one need wonder that there was so much wealth in our temple, for all the Jews throughout the habitable world, and fearers of God, even those from Asia and Europe, had been contributing to it for a very long time."

Oh, you mean there have been Gentile converts to Judaism throughout history. Pretty sure any Greeks that went to the temple in Antioch had to drop their belief in the Greek pantheon to be considered to be observing Judaism. They couldn't combine building sukkhot with sacrificing to Zeus. Likewise, anyone who believes in a human sacrifice atoning for sin can't be practicing any form of Judaism. Judaism isn't syncretic like that.

Edited to complete a sentence

[TOBeliever-]

Then they are Jews who have converted to Christianity. If they believe that a person's death atoned for sins, they are Christians.

I don't believe a person's death atoned for my sins.

[stonefruit]

TOBeliever, did you make your blog private?

[TOBeliever-]

Oh, you mean there have been Gentile converts to Judaism throughout history. Pretty sure any Greeks that went to the temple in Antioch had to drop their belief in the Greek pantheon to be considered to be observing Judaism. They couldn't combine building sukkhot with sacrificing to Zeus. Likewise, anyone who believes in a human sacrifice atoning for sin can't be practicing any form of Judaism. Judaism isn't syncretic like that.

Edited to complete a sentence

A gentile convert is referred to as a proselyte. A gentile who aligns themselves with Judaism, following the one true G-d is a G-d-fearer. The Gentile court in the Second Temple was larger than any other court. http://www.betemunah.org/merit_files/image010.jpg

In order for Judaism to keep their religion and not be forced to follow Rome, the High Priests made a sacrifice for the Emperor of Rome in the Holy Temple. Non-Jews were not afforded the opportunity to shun Roman law so many became proselytes.

[TOBeliever-]

TOBeliever, did you make your blog private?

I did, it is not intended as a forum for rude comments and attacks on my personal beliefs. Its purpose is to keep in touch with friends and family.

[Jewess]

Can I ask you- if you believe in Jesus, why follow Rabbinic law, especially stuff that came after the time of Jesus? Because obviously the rabbis who made those laws didn't believe in Jesus, and therefore "were sinners and didn't know what they were talking about and would have gotten punished by God for not believing in Jesus", so why believe that they did know what they were talking about when making rabbinic laws?

[TOBeliever-]

Your friends who convert to Judaism are doing so because they look beyond a few rituals and see the whole picture of being Jewish. Your concern for their afterlife marks you are Christian--Jews don't believe in Hell because it was not mentioned or alluded to in the Torah.

Again, I did not say anyone was going to Hell, I didn't say that I believed in such a place or that people were going there if I did.

There is proof for a "suffering Messiah" within the TANAKH - Is 53, yes the whole chapter.

[TOBeliever-]

Can I ask you- if you believe in Jesus, why follow Rabbinic law, especially stuff that came after the time of Jesus? Because obviously the rabbis who made those laws didn't believe in Jesus, and therefore "were sinners and didn't know what they were talking about and would have gotten punished by God for not believing in Jesus", so why believe that they did know what they were talking about when making rabbinic laws?

This is a very good question and one that Christians ask us all the time. Because Yeshua said to.

Matt5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Matt23: 2 "The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. "

The Rabbi's are directly descended (religiously) from the Prushim or Pharisees. I know that the Talmud and other Rabbinic teachings are anti Yeshua, but the wealth of knowledge and wisdom contained therein is priceless.

[formergothardite]

Again, I did not say anyone was going to Hell, I didn't say that I believed in such a place or that people were going there if I did.

There is proof for a "suffering Messiah" within the TANAKH - Is 53, yes the whole chapter.

Then why are you mourning their loss in the world to come? Where do you think they are going? I am all confused.

[Jewess]

This is a very good question and one that Christians ask us all the time. Because Yeshua said to.

Matt5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Matt23: 2 "The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. "

Hrmm. So they sit in the seat of Moshe, and yet they'll be punished by God for not believing in Jesus?

The Rabbi's are directly descended (religiously) from the Prushim or Pharisees. I know that the Talmud and other Rabbinic teachings are anti Yeshua, but the wealth of knowledge and wisdom contained therein is priceless.

How do you not feel like a complete hypocrite by following some of the halachic teachings of these rabbis while completely ignoring the fact that they think Jesus was deserving of death because he was an apikores, a heretic, who did many anti Torah things? If you follow their halachic rulings, you should follow their halachic rulings on Jesus as well, that belief in him is avoda zara, idol worship.

Otherwise you're just being a hypocrite.

[emmiedahl]

Isaiah 53 is about the suffering servant known as Israel. It refers to the servant living a long life with many children--does that sound like Jesus to you? There is no reason to think it refers to a Messiah, much less to Christ specifically. If you read back a few chapters, it becomes obvious that this section addresses Israel specifically because it says "My servant Israel".

[2xx1xy1JD]

What on earth is an "observant non-believer"? Do you mean an observant Jew who does not share your Christian beliefs?

[emmiedahl]

btw, thank you for making your blog private. I am always concerned that websites like yours might confuse *real* Jews and potential converts to *real* Judaism. We don't need more meshugenners like Lina and Anthony.

[TOBeliever-]

Hrmm. So they sit in the seat of Moshe, and yet they'll be punished by God for not believing in Jesus?

How do you not feel like a complete hypocrite by following some of the halachic teachings of these rabbis while completely ignoring the fact that they think Jesus was deserving of death because he was an apikores, a heretic, who did many anti Torah things? If you follow their halachic rulings, you should follow their halachic rulings on Jesus as well, that belief in him is avoda zara, idol worship.

Otherwise you're just being a hypocrite.

Your questions and accusations are well thought out, not emotional vitriol without substance...I like that.

Again I will say I don't know what will happen to non-believing Jews. I honestly don't they are the chosen one's of G-d. That they rejected His Messiah is between them...not going there.

Yeshua was not a heretic, who did anything against Torah or Traditions...I would love to see your thoughts on that, what you think he did, so we could discuss it at length. Could you show me in the Talmud where they say that? I know that the great sage Gamaliel was of the belief that the believers should just be left alone, if they are not of G-d they will fall away and if they are of G-d then you raise your hand against the Almighty. I also know that the Rabbi's in light of the very anti-Bible/Torah position of persecuting the Jews colored the rulings against believers. But I no more feel a hypocrite about "picking and choosing" than Observant Jews do when they are Shomer Shabbat but not Shomer Negiah.

[TOBeliever-]

What on earth is an "observant non-believer"? Do you mean an observant Jew who does not share your Christian beliefs?

Yes.

[formergothardite]

Yes.

Then they are just Jews, it is kind of insulting to call them otherwise.

[emmiedahl]

Yeshua did several things that are in violation of Torah. First, he claimed to be divine. Second, he claimed that he was the source of his miracles and not God. The Israelites wandered for 40 years because Moses did the same thing on a lesser level. Third, the whole drinking his body and blood--not okay in Jewish law. Not okay to even figuratively speak of it.

Those are just a few that I can think of. Maybe someone who cares about the New Testament more than I do can chime in. I personally try to block it out.

[formergothardite]

Didn't he get criticised by priests for breaking the law a couple of times?

[emmiedahl]

I think those were in situations where most Jews would break the law--helping a dying man on Sabbath was it? I'm all for that shit actually. The spirit of compassion overrides legalism for me, although I understand if others interpret things differently.

[formergothardite]

I thought it was working on the Sabbath by going out and picking grains. Haven't read the Bible in some time. LOL

[emmiedahl]

I retract my former statement if he was harvesting on the Sabbath. :) For some reason, I thought it was a life-and-death matter. I have not read the NT for some time either.

[TOBeliever-]

Yeshua did several things that are in violation of Torah. First, he claimed to be divine. Second, he claimed that he was the source of his miracles and not God. The Israelites wandered for 40 years because Moses did the same thing on a lesser level. Third, the whole drinking his body and blood--not okay in Jewish law. Not okay to even figuratively speak of it.

Those are just a few that I can think of. Maybe someone who cares about the New Testament more than I do can chime in. I personally try to block it out.

I don't mind discussing these things but I won't do the "work" for them you quote chapter and verse for divination claim, his claim on the miracles and the "whole drinking his body and blood." Then I will answer to them being fact or fiction.

As to the figuratively drinking the blood...On seder night there is an additional reason to have red wine: it reminds us of the blood of Jewish Children who were slaughter by evil Pharaoh so that he could bathe in their blood. - Yaakov Meir Strauss

[emmiedahl]

It reminds us =/= it is. So you don't want to debate with real Jews (we don't keep New Testaments lying around our homes) obviously.

eta: To clarify, Jesus did not say, this wine should remind you of my blood. He said, this is my body and blood. That, my friend, is the difference between heresy and tradition.

[TOBeliever-]

It reminds us =/= it is. So you don't want to debate with real Jews (we don't keep New Testaments lying around our homes) obviously.

I would love to have an educated debate, the anti-missionaries in Israel know the New Testament backwards and forwards, however we would greatly disagree on interpretation. My point in asking you to do the work is to say that you have only heard that Yeshua did this or that, you don't know what he did or didn't do. Look it up, blueletterbible has a great search engine, see what you find...then we will talk about it. If I had a point about a Jewish tradition, I would look up the ruling or teaching, even if I didn't own the books themselves.

[Witsec1]

Could you explain what you do believe about Jesus?