Messianics Becoming Jews?

[pomology]

Because their friendship is lost to us, they consider us idolaters now and reject an integral part of our life. I know that Yeshua taught that there is hierarchy of some sort in the world to come and I can't imagine that by rejecting him they will be towards the top, if you know what I mean. I guess my mourning would be in this world though, the loss of their friendship.

Yes, I know exactly what you mean.

What you mean is that Jews are good enough to appropriate their cultural customs, but not good enough to go to the highest tier of heaven. You've made yourself clear. End of thread.

[Guest Anonymous]

TOBeliever, I have a question. What do you think of devout Christians who don't follow any Jewish customs?

[pomology]

I don't believe that's what she meant. She meant, you can't claim a kinship with these ancient God-fearers because they respected the Jewish interpretation of Torah. They did not reject one of the central tenets of Judaism that all Jews agree on, and then claim to respect Judaism and its teachers. The Lubavitchers also agree that Jesus was NOT the Messiah. For nearly 2,000 years, Jews have believed that belief in Jesus as Messiah is not compatible with Judaism. You can't reject their beliefs and then claim the legacy of Torah-observant Gentile.

Also, btw, thanks FloraPoste for trying to clarify what I meant, because you represented my thoughts correctly and I could not for the life of me figure out what TOBeliever was saying.

[FaustianSlip]

If it is a traditional Jewish conversion, I am positive that they lied about the Jesus thing. They absolutely would be asked, and it would disqualify them.

This. I don't know of a single Conservative rabbi, and I know a lot, from people on the more liberal end to people on the more Orthodox, who would knowingly convert someone who declared a belief in Jesus. Period. And not only that, the oath that you take upon passing your beit din, definitely in a Conservative beit din (and I'm sure in an Orthodox one) specifically states that you renounce all other religions, accept Judaism and only Judaism as your belief system, et cetera. It may mention Jesus by name, actually, but I don't have the paperwork at my fingertips at the moment, so I'd have to do some checking. This whackadoo can say whatever she likes, but the simple fact of the matter is that if you lie by omission at your beit din (and you'd have to, because even if you find one rabbi who's totes cool with you believing fundamentally non-Jewish things and still converting, you'd never find three in the same place), it's not a sincere conversion and is thus invalid. And as usual, I have to wonder about these people who brag so easily about all of the liars they know, and whether that's really the kind of company they want to keep.

[TOBeliever-]

Do you understand that just as you mourn your friends who rejected Messiah to become truly Jewish, Jewish people mourn the loss of fellow Jews to Christian missionaries? Particularly since so many Jews have been lost to Christian persecution over the years?

Yes I do completely understand. I think it is horrific those things that were done in the name of G-d, against the people of G-d and I don't fault them at all for their feelings towards, Christians and "Jews for Jesus."

[TOBeliever-]

I'm interested in where these beit dins are that approve conversions for jesus believers.

http://sanhedrin.org/ Is the only contact I have.

[TOBeliever-]

That is a relatively new thing that is NOT accepted in the Jewish community.

So 200,000 Jews are wrong and what is the outcome?

http://www.adherents.com/Na/Na_303.html for pop number.

[emmiedahl]

http://sanhedrin.org/ Is the only contact I have.

That is a Messianic website, not a Jewish one. Does it bother you that the people you follow have a pattern of lies and misrepresentation about themselves and their beliefs?

[TOBeliever-]

At Messianic Temples, that is where.

Unfortunately most Messianic Congregation are overseen by a lay leader, or pastor, very few have a Rabbi with verifiable smicha. A pastor, teacher, or leader wouldn't have the ability to oversee a conversion.

[TOBeliever-]

Yea I found this.

"Process

The Messianic Jewish Simcha requires a recognized and somewhat standardized process or "examination" period. Here are the requirements:

The candidate only becomes an official candidate on the third request. At least a six month waiting period from first to third request.

The candidate must be actively participating in a Messianic Jewish synagogue.

The male candidate must be or have been circumcised.

The candidate must choose a Hebrew name.

The candidate must show ability to perform major Hebrew blessings.

The candidate must write out a full and clear account of their lifestyle as a Jew.

The candidate must have a publically witnessed Jewish mikveh.

The candidate should receive a certificate of Jewish conversion (this certificate will not mention faith in Messiah, so as not to confuse the purpose).

http://www.messianicbureau.org/synagogue/conversion.htm

This is not the type of conversion I was talking about, within this site they admit that, "presently no other branch of Judaism will accept a Messianic Jewish conversion." and "Candidates must accept that Messianic Jewish Simcha probably will not give them acceptance in the non-Messianic Jewish community."

The type of conversion I referred is your Orthodox Jewish Conversion. Allowing the person to make aliyah if desired.

[TOBeliever-]

If it is a traditional Jewish conversion, I am positive that they lied about the Jesus thing. They absolutely would be asked, and it would disqualify them.

sanhedrin.org

[TOBeliever-]

TOBeliever, I have a question. What do you think of devout Christians who don't follow any Jewish customs?

I think that is there choice. I study and have worshiped with many such Christians, they are intrigued by my choice and often will ask questions, but I'm not evangelical in my lifestyle at all. I don't beat them up for observing Christmas and Easter or neglecting Passover.

[TOBeliever-]

I'm pretty convinced TOB is parroting stuff she's getting from websites and has no real clue how a conversion works.

I wish I'd read her blog before she shut the door.

I quote the websites I get info from, except the list of scriptures, which it turns out I should have vetted more as it turns out to have many mistakes. I'm pretty sure I know how conversion works I have read a number of Jewish publications on the topic. Like I said earlier I would like to convert, but my husband disagrees, that doesn't keep me from studying it :)

[TOBeliever-]

Also, they were born Jewish, so if they ever decide that Menachem Mendel Schneerson wasn't the Messiah, they will be Jewish. You never were Jewish. There's a difference. There's also a difference between born Jews accepting Jesus as the Messiah and people like you.

If accepting Jesus as Messiah doesn't negate a person's Jewishness, than why does believing Jesus to be Messiah prevent conversion?

[TOBeliever-]

So to get this straight, you think all the real Jews, who follow Judiasm and don't believe in Jesus have bad things coming for them when they die?

To address this again, I don't know what happens to Jews who reject the idea of Messiah as Jesus. I know all Jews look to the coming of Messiah and I know that within that belief is salvation. But Yeshua said that if you reject me before men, than I will reject you before G-d. Again I don't know what that means, I am assuming its not good, but does it earn you a one way ticket to "hell" or "sh'ol"? I don't know.

[TOBeliever-]

Does it bother you that the people you follow have a pattern of lies and misrepresentation about themselves and their beliefs?

Could you be more specific? I'm not sure who you are talking about, I don't believe I have mentioned who I follow.

[emmiedahl]

Could you be more specific? I'm not sure who you are talking about, I don't believe I have mentioned who I follow.

Well, for instance every list of scripture you have produced has been full of glaring misrepresentations. And then, that sanhedrin.org place that pretends to be Orthodox Jewish. The friends who became Jewish while believing in Jesus, which means that they lied. These are the people you use as authorities. They are liars. Does it bother you?

[pomology]

This. I don't know of a single Conservative rabbi, and I know a lot, from people on the more liberal end to people on the more Orthodox, who would knowingly convert someone who declared a belief in Jesus. Period. And not only that, the oath that you take upon passing your beit din, definitely in a Conservative beit din (and I'm sure in an Orthodox one) specifically states that you renounce all other religions, accept Judaism and only Judaism as your belief system, et cetera. It may mention Jesus by name, actually, but I don't have the paperwork at my fingertips at the moment, so I'd have to do some checking. This whackadoo can say whatever she likes, but the simple fact of the matter is that if you lie by omission at your beit din (and you'd have to, because even if you find one rabbi who's totes cool with you believing fundamentally non-Jewish things and still converting, you'd never find three in the same place), it's not a sincere conversion and is thus invalid. And as usual, I have to wonder about these people who brag so easily about all of the liars they know, and whether that's really the kind of company they want to keep.

Yeah, as somebody said in the Lina thread, two Jews--three opinions. So no way you'd find a Beit Din full of Rabbis who are cool with J-Dog.

[pomology]

Unfortunately most Messianic Congregation are overseen by a lay leader, or pastor, very few have a Rabbi with verifiable smicha. A pastor, teacher, or leader wouldn't have the ability to oversee a conversion.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, there's a reason for that?

[pomology]

If accepting Jesus as Messiah doesn't negate a person's Jewishness, than why does believing Jesus to be Messiah prevent conversion?

Because a Jew is a Jew no matter what. But there is a very strict process for conversion. Yeah, there's a double standard, so what? Deal with it. This is our religion, we get to make the rules.

Edited to clarify my point: If somebody sincerely converts to Judaism and does not believe in Jesus at the time, but then comes to believe in him at a time after their conversion, they are still a Jew. Once a Jew, always a Jew, whether by birth or by conversion. BUT you cannot convert if, at the time your conversion, you believe in Jesus (or in multiple Gods etc.)

[Guest Anonymous]

I think that is there choice. I study and have worshiped with many such Christians, they are intrigued by my choice and often will ask questions, but I'm not evangelical in my lifestyle at all. I don't beat them up for observing Christmas and Easter or neglecting Passover.

Just to make sure I understand - that means that you don't think Torah observance is necessary for your run of the mill Christian?

[TOBeliever-]

Well, for instance every list of scripture you have produced has been full of glaring misrepresentations. And then, that sanhedrin.org place that pretends to be Orthodox Jewish. The friends who became Jewish while believing in Jesus, which means that they lied. These are the people you use as authorities. They are liars. Does it bother you?

I said that site had errors, sorry about that should have checked it more thoroughly.

The Sanhedrin site are Jewish people who believe in Yeshua, write them and ask them how it works.

I can only tell you they were/are converted.

They aren't my authorities, they aren't people I answer to.

[TOBeliever-]

Just to make sure I understand - that means that you don't think Torah observance is necessary for your run of the mill Christian?

Gentiles are not required to keep Torah. Jews are, whether they are believers in Yeshua or not.

[TOBeliever-]

Yeah, there's a double standard, so what? Deal with it. This is our religion, we get to make the rules.

Okay.

[wildflower]

Gentiles are not required to keep Torah. Jews are, whether they are believers in Yeshua or not.

I have a couple of questions as a fellow Christian who doesn't know that much about the Messianic movement. Do you believe that people of Jewish ancestry who convert to Christianity are still under obligation to keep the Torah? If so, how do you explain Peter's behavior in Acts 10? He very clearly broke Torah law by eating unkosher food prepared by Gentiles.

*Edited to fix my SOTDRT grammar