Messianics Becoming Jews?

[Witsec1]

The conversion in the reform or conservative synagogue was a straight up Jewish synagogue, they converted because there was no Messianic community in their area. The Orthodox conversions were also straight up orthodox conversions...not Messianic conversions...the sandhedrin.org beit din had nothing to do with either one.

You were asked under what auspices your friends were converted, and sanhedrin.org was the name of the organization you gave, implying that it was, in your phrasing, a "straight-up" Jewish conversion. Now you're saying, oh no, it wasn't them, it was a real Jewish synagogue. You know that that is the real question people were asking. Where are these "straight up" Jewish synagogues that allow Jesus-believers to convert? What city?

[oscar]

You were asked under what auspices your friends were converted, and sanhedrin.org was the name of the organization you gave, implying that it was, in your phrasing, a "straight-up" Jewish conversion. Now you're saying, oh no, it wasn't them, it was a real Jewish synagogue. You know that that is the real question people were asking. Where are these "straight up" Jewish synagogues that allow Jesus-believers to convert? What city?

Oh, FloraPoste. You know they can't tell you that, for fear of persecution by the powerful and vindictive Jewish Establishment. :roll:

Edited to add: That was kind of bratty - I apologize for nudging the conversation in a less than constructive direction.

[Witsec1]

Gentiles can convert and retain belief in Yeshua. the sanhedrin.org beit din is the one I know about, it is not the beit din that oversaw my friends orthodox conversion. As I said before I don't know who sat on that beit din. I just know that since then they have made aliyah. The 2008 court ruling allows Messianic Jews to enter the Land and have citizenship. And there is at least one reason why the beit din might be a secret, is because violence against Messianic Jews by Jews is not unheard of within Israel.

Wrong. Read the quote from wikipedia again. The Supreme Court has ruled that Messianic Judaism is not Judaism and has not reversed that. The later ruling agreed to look at the cases of some applicants with Jewish fathers and grandfathers, who are considered eligible to immigrate under Israeli secular law, but not considered Jews according to Jewish religious law. Jews who are considered Jews under Jewish religious law, who have embraced Jesus belief, cannot make aliyah. So the ruling creates a bit of a loophole. Messianic "Jews" with no Jewish parents or grandparents have never been able to immigrate to Israel, and the ruling does not change that. So if your friends made aliyah, they either had a Jewish father or grandfather, OR they defrauded the Israeli government.

Again, if you are part of the reality-based community you will recognize that the Law of Return was not created to allow Jesus-believers with no Jewish heritage to immigrate to Israel.

[Witsec1]

TOB, I'm going to ask a direct question, and I hope you will give me a direct answer.

Do you believe the intent of Israel's immigration laws is to allow Jesus-believers with no Jewish ethnic heritage to become Israeli citizens? Why or why not?

[formergothardite]

I think quitting would matter in the afterlife, I think my portion would be less. I am not better than those who follow Judaism, they are the chosen ones of G-d, His children. I merely want to live a righteous life, how is that possible apart from Torah?

So you are saying that Christians who don't follow the Torah are not living a righteous life? You said it wasn't required, yet here you are acting like it is. And how does that match with Galations 3:23-25 which says that now Christ has come we are free from the law? And also Romans 6:14-15 that says that we are not under the law but under grace? And Gal. 2:21 where Paul says that if righteousness comes from following the law, Jesus died in vain? So how does all that match up with you saying your portion will be less if you didn't follow the law?

You've also already said that people who practice real Judiasm (not the Messianic kind or people who are of Jewish heritage and become Christian), that it is bad that they rejected Jesus. To use your exact words " I am assuming its not good". That makes it pretty clear you are saying you are better off than them spiritually wise.

I feel like you are talking in circles and are trying not to be pinned down on exactly what you believe about things.

~edited because I thought of some stuff.~

~edited again because I can spell feel!~

[Guest Anonymous]

I fell like you are talking in circles and are trying not to be pinned down on exactly what you believe about things.

This +1,000. You're certainly not doing yourself or your fellow Messianics any favors in this thread, TOBeliever. The interactions that I've had with Messianics online have been with people that are sneaky, evasive about their beliefs, holier-than-thou, liars for the lord. You fit right in.

[emmiedahl]

To give her the benefit of the doubt, it is very possible that she is merely following her husband and really has no idea what she believes or why. That would explain the regurgitated arguments that make no sense, and the avoidance of certain questions.

She is probably waiting for him to come home from work right now so she can ask why Jesus is the Messiah if he is not a king and not from the line of Solomon. Or, maybe she is reading the Torah and finding out for herself how wrong this all is.

[Guest Anonymous]

She is probably waiting for him to come home from work right now so she can ask why Jesus is the Messiah if he is not a king and not from the line of Solomon. Or, maybe she is reading the Torah and finding out for herself how wrong this all is.

Well she can't read the Torah for herself because that is studying alone and before she knows it she'll be a real Jew instead of a fake one, and her friends will mourn her loss in the world to come. But that doesn't mean that she will go to hell, gracious no! But her portion will be less and that will probably be bad. Or something.

Since she can't study alone, that's why she needs those Jewish except not really folks over at Sanhedran.org. Except that they aren't her authorities and they aren't the people she answers to. Or something.

She's chasing her tail and doesn't seem to have a clear understanding of what she believes at all, but she damn sure thinks she's right and the rest of us (Jews that act like Jews, and Christians that act like Christians) are wrong. Or not as right as she is. Or something. Seriously TOB, do you not get how arrogant it is to trumpet your bizarre mish-mash of religion as the one true way?

[pomology]

Wrong. Read the quote from wikipedia again. The Supreme Court has ruled that Messianic Judaism is not Judaism and has not reversed that. The later ruling agreed to look at the cases of some applicants with Jewish fathers and grandfathers, who are considered eligible to immigrate under Israeli secular law, but not considered Jews according to Jewish religious law. Jews who are considered Jews under Jewish religious law, who have embraced Jesus belief, cannot make aliyah. So the ruling creates a bit of a loophole. Messianic "Jews" with no Jewish parents or grandparents have never been able to immigrate to Israel, and the ruling does not change that. So if your friends made aliyah, they either had a Jewish father or grandfather, OR they defrauded the Israeli government.

Again, if you are part of the reality-based community you will recognize that the Law of Return was not created to allow Jesus-believers with no Jewish heritage to immigrate to Israel.

Right? It's NOT that hard to understand (well, maybe it's little hard...)

Anybody who would have been considered a Jew under the Nuremberg laws can move to Israel under the Right of Return. That means anybody with a Jewish parent, including those who are, halachically, non-Jewish.

However, if you are halachically considered a Jew (i.e. your matrilineal line is Jewish) and you embrace another religion be it Christianity (or the subset known as Messianic Judaism), Islam, Bahaism, paganism etc. Thus Messianic Jews with one or more Jewish grandparents who are not their mother's mother are allowed to make aliyah, but that's true of anybody on the planet with one or more Jewish grandparents who are not their mother's mother. Messianics are NOT treated any differently than mainstream Christians, Muslims, pagans etc.

[pomology]

This +1,000. You're certainly not doing yourself or your fellow Messianics any favors in this thread, TOBeliever. The interactions that I've had with Messianics online have been with people that are sneaky, evasive about their beliefs, holier-than-thou, liars for the lord. You fit right in.

If I say this +1,000 does that mean that I'm +2,000-ing what formergorthardite said? Either way, this +1,000. ;)

[formergothardite]

I read through this thread like three times trying to understand what the fuck she is saying and I can't. She just keeps using a whole bunch of words that don't make a lot of sense and she refuses to be pinned down on stuff.

[Ralar]

That is a relatively new thing that is NOT accepted in the Jewish community.

AND, only some Luvabitchers believe their Rebbe is moshiach. It is not a mainstream belief.

[pomology]

I read through this thread like three times trying to understand what the fuck she is saying and I can't. She just keeps using a whole bunch of words that don't make a lot of sense and she refuses to be pinned down on stuff.

If there are Hebrew words that you don't understand, I'm sure somebody here would be happy to translate for you, but somehow I get the idea that that isn't the problem, because I cannot for the life of me figure out what she is saying, either.

[formergothardite]

If there are Hebrew words that you don't understand, I'm sure somebody here would be happy to translate for you, but somehow I get the idea that that isn't the problem, because I cannot for the life of me figure out what she is saying, either.

Thank you. I can google Hebrew words, but there is nothing that will translate what she is saying.

[Witsec1]

OK, here's something interesting I found. If you go to that sanhedrin.org site, it is called "Sanhedrin of the Way" If you google "Sanhedrin of the Way" - this is one of the results:

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/beit-din/

Beit Din

Go to Sanhedrin.org

Within the Jewish sect of HaDerech there exists a great need to provide disciples of Yeshua ben Yoseph mi’Netzaret with an halichic means to convert to orthodox Judaism, and thus be recognized as orthodox Jewish converts by the global body of believers, and all Israel, without having to deny that Yeshua is the Messiah.

In addition, there also exists a great need to build up qualified rabbinic leaders in “Messianic Judaism†with recognized orthodox Jewish smicha. Such smicha should not be given lightly and should meet or exceed current rabbinic qualifications so that believing communities and leaders are not found to be without a solid defense for their identity and responsibilities to Torah. If such a leader is found to be lacking, then free education should be offered to the leader who so chooses to serve HaShem as a rabbi, and such discipleship should be encouraged among all believers.

The orthodox Jewish believers at JerusalemCouncil.org hope to establish a “Messianic Sanhedrin†– a global Torah academy with the aim of establishing a beit din to be a fully functional orthodox Jewish rabbinical court that will be the first of many reproduced worldwide. It is the goal of the Jerusalem Council vision to establish such a Sanhedrin with the most qualified rabbis of our generation, and we ask that those who are interested in helping us establish this service to consider joining us today and turning this dream into a reality.

It is our hope that the establishment of orthodox Jewish battai din made up of believers will help play a small part in HaShem “restoring our judges as in earliest times and our counselors as at first.†If you can help with this goal, we invite you to join us today!

Until the Sanhedrin of the Way is formally instituted, you can find a number of battai din who ascribe to the JerusalemCouncil.org vision on our Knesset page.

The following are considered historical rulings of the former Messianic Sanhedrin, that is, the Jerusalem Council Beit Din:

* Rulings Acts 15:23-29

* Didache

There is a link from that page to this:

http://jerusalemcouncil.org/beit-din/questions/semicha/

Do you give semicha (Rabbinic Ordination)?

Feb.10, 2009 in Questions

There are certain requirements to be recognized as a rabbi (teacher) within Judaism.

One must be both:

1. Jewish.

2. An ordained leader of a beit knesset with sufficient knowledge to render halakhic decisions; or an ordained Torah scholar with sufficient knowledge to render halakhic decisions.

“Sufficient knowledge†is defined as a mastery of the Torah, and is generally recognized to include a formal education in Jewish religious studies, and/or a recognition by peers concerning one’s knowledge of the Torah and materials usually covered by such a formal education at a Jewish yeshiva.

It is the desire of the volunteers at JerusalemCouncil.org to establish a qualified beit din which will provide smicha to qualified candidates in the future.

Out of respect for the diverse communities that make up our volunteer base, at this time we will recognize and use the titles various leaders within our community have been given by their peers. This is consistent with the practice of greater Judaism.

Tags: Judaism, ordination, semicha, smicha

Below the post is this interesting discussion:

9 Comments on “Do you give semicha (Rabbinic Ordination)?â€

1.

Pat Power

February 16th, 2009 at 8:14 am

I’m confused – sorry. Who officiates at your conversions to Judaism if you don’t ordain your own Jewish rabbis? Thanks!

Pat Power

2.

Israel

February 16th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

At this point, the community ordains their own leadership, following the example that Rambam lays out concerning the re-establishment of smicha as being derived from the community.

Also, any Jew can witness a conversion, not just a rabbi. However, a Beit Din is required to recognize someone as Jewish, yet it was the Beit Din of the first Jerusalem Council that already recognized converts from the nations as equal participants in the Jewish community upon their commitment to teshuvah, and immersion into the name of Moshiach, with the expectation that they would learn and do more and more Torah, including getting circumcised. These requirements are still expected of converts to any orthodox Jewish sect before recognizing someone as Jewish, however the circumcision requirement is the first requirement of conversion in all other sects of Judaism, and it is likely that in the 1st Century, circumcision wasn’t expected of immediately of converts to HaDerech Judaism until after they demonstrated that they were secure in their hope in the World to Come by identifying in Moshiach alone, and not through Jewish conversion. Jewish conversion was seen by HaDerech as a means of continued teshuvah after initial submission to Messiah Yeshua, and the receiving of the Spirit of HaShem.

3.

Pat Power

March 3rd, 2009 at 8:37 pm

OK – that’s a little clearer. I guess my next question is whether you anticipate that an orthodox rabbi outside of the Messianic movement will confirm your converts as Jews after this extended process of acculturation? Are you working with any particular group now? I also wonder how many congregations or covenant communities are connected with your leadership? In case you are wondering why I am asking all these questions, I am working on a dissertation proposal that would pick up writing the ongoing history of the Hebrew-Christian, Messianic movement. The last academic flurry of interest was around the turn of the millennium and not much has been done systematically since. I am particularly interested in Messianic conversions and how groups who do these envision integrating their new Jews into the larger Jewish community (or do they?). This seems to a new development, relatively speaking.

Thanks for your time,

Pat Power

Arizona State University

Dept. of Religious Studies

Tempe, AZ

patricia.power@asu.edu

4.

Israel Betzalel

March 3rd, 2009 at 9:42 pm

We do not anticipate other orthodox sects of Judaism recognizing our converts – even after an extended process of acculturation. After all, at its inception, the Messianic following of Yeshua was clearly Jewish, with little if any Gentile influence, and they were rejected within a generation. Messiah did warn us that we would be kicked out of the assembly, out of the synagogue, and if it happened to them, it can happen to us. Not that being kicked out is our aim – our aim is to make teshuvah, which does require a community to be lived out in full – but being rejected by other Jews is a reality that all potential converts must be aware of when seeking conversion.

We are not working actively with any orthodox sects yet, however we do have an affinity towards Chabad and other Chassidic sects of orthodox Judaism that our converts could feel at home with, and often orthodox Messianic Jews will more than likely be found in such an orthodox shul rather than in a known Messianic congregation. Interestingly, other sects of Judaism such as Reform and Reconstructionist groups tend to be more friendly towards Messianics on an intellectual and community level (I say this sparingly since I only know those in my current circle of contacts), but Reform, or Reconstructionist Judaism is not our aim as orthodox Jews.

Orthodox Jews who also believe Yeshua is the Messiah, are found, interestingly enough, not in Messianic Judaism, but in the orthodox shul. This is nothing new. The cost of doing so is of course hiding one’s identity as a believer in Messiah Yeshua; but since Yeshua’s teachings are authentically Torah and authentically Jewish by nature, this isn’t difficult, sans making an effort to actually mention his name or be seen associating with known Christians – a condition that those rabbis of those congregations that are aware of such believers in their midst, make it a point to tell such believers to not proselytize (which isn’t the aim of any orthodox believer there anyways).

Our organization here seeks to teach Messiah from the Torah, and thus teshuvah, or repentance to the Torah. This includes obedience to the established authorities of Judaism, which includes the Sages, and the new Sanhedrin, in addition to being held responsible to one another by setting up accountability structures within our own communities. We provide a Beit Din for those communities seeking a covering, and to help questions submitted by the public on this site. We have several volunteers, communities, and rabbis that are part of this project, from Israel to the UK to India to various African nations to Australia to the United States. If anything we see firsthand on a daily basis the global nature of this movement toward an authentic Torah-based Messianic Judaism. We are a new project in this endeavor – about two years old, and only in the last three months have we turned our focus on writing good quality apologetic articles, and responding to the inquires that do come in. We have not had to advertise. People seem to find us from all over. We are growing organically, so for now our primary project is gathering data on every single known Messianic community and congregation on the web, and publishing that, in an effort to increase communication between the scattered pockets of Messianic Judaism in the world, with the aim of coming together on a shared platform of teshuvah and accountability. Perhaps someday there will actually be a Jerusalem Council again. We are just a placeholder for that vision and welcome those with input, to join us.

If you are looking for a documented history of those who have made teshuvah over the centuries, check out: The Documented History of Torah Observant Believers

[oscar]

...how interesting.

[emmiedahl]

What is interesting is the assumption that they assume so many Orthodox Jews believe in Jesus and hide it. They assume that, because there are not any in Messianic Judaism.

Honestly, I don't think there are more than a handful of Orthodox Jews who believe in Jesus. I just don't. If there are any, they are the best kept secret of Judaism and certainly nothing that a non-Jew would know about.

Thank you for digging this up. It makes me feel better to see proof that they are not really Jewish--that they are liars and con artists, just as I suspected.

[Witsec1]

Wow, TOBeliever, thanks for turning me on to the Sanhedrin of the Way site. On the related Jerusalem Council site, I found this post which details exactly what is behind these "straight-up" conversions you refer to:

The Conversion Process

So what does the conversion process entail? You must enter into the Orthodox Jewish community, living among them for a one to two year period, during which you must show yourself to be committed to living an Orthodox lifestyle, a lifestyle that cannot include a belief in Y’shua. You attend classes, you participate in community life, and you often have people from that community staying with you from time to time so as to make sure you are not playing a part. If you are a man you go through circumcision, and both men and women must go through the mikvah. At the end of this time, the Rabbi of the community will give you a paper that recognizes you as a convert, allowing you to fully enter the community. The problem is, the Orthodox Jewish community will not give you conversion papers if they know you are a believer, so how do you get around this? You may flat out lie, denying the Messiah when asked. Or you can try to simply avoid the issue of the Messiah, omitting this part of your faith from any conversation. The third option is to try to bypass the entire process by buying your conversion papers.

Let’s look at these first two options. Your preparation for conversion starts long before you enter into the normative Jewish community. If you have children, your preparation starts several months before, erasing every trace of the Messiah from your home. He must not be a part of your vocabulary and He cannot be the subject of your books, movies, or other forms of media. This is done so that when you enter into the community for the one to two year process your children don’t blow your cover. You must also cut off your friends and family, because your life will be under intense scrutiny, and you must not have any ties to those who profess a belief in the Messiah if your mission to convert is to be successful. By doing these things, you are indoctrinating your kids to reject the Messiah, even if you intend to return to the Messianic community afterwards. While all around the world people are being martyred just for the chance to proclaim the Messiah, you are doing everything in your power to conceal the Messiah in you life- ironic, is it not?

During this time of concealing their faith, many who started with the intention of returning to Messianism later end up walking away altogether. Why? Because they have placed the approval of man above their faith in the Messiah. Their belief in the Messiah is no longer their greatest treasure. As time goes on, the value of the Messiah will diminish in their eyes, especially as their new life in entrenched in a community that is openly hostile towards Him. They will begin to question why they even need a Messiah, as they are taught that every Jew has a place in the world to come, no strings attached. The longer that they play the character of someone who does not have the Messiah, the more real that character becomes to them. Their thinking patterns change, and they train themselves to live without the Messiah.

If you make it through this time without losing your belief in Y’shua, what do you do if you are asked if you believe in Y’shua? Some would say it is justifiable to lie, saying that HaShem knows their heart and that they don’t really mean it, but that is a dangerous position to be in. Matthew 10:33 states that those who deny Y’shua before men, He will deny before HaShem.

So what about those who say that they will just avoid the issue, omitting any reference to the Messiah? Is this even possible? I know those who entered into the process with the understanding given to them by the very Rabbi doing the conversion that they would never be asked about Y’shua. After going through the entire process, before they would be given their conversion papers, they were asked to sign a document that included a denial of Y’shua as the Messiah…This couple walked away without the conversion documents, as they were not willing to sign such a document, even after investing so much time into the process. But what if it were possible? Would it be acceptable in HaShem’s eyes to do this?

Imagine that you are a parent, and you have set specific rules for your children. One such rule is that they cannot play with a certain other child, maybe because of that child’s bad behavior or language. Your child then asks you if they can play at another friend’s house, and you agree. Later, you find out that the child they were forbidden to play with was at that other friend’s house at the same time as your child. What’s more, you find out that your child knew they would be there before asking your permission, and concealed that fact from you because they knew that information would change the outcome of their request. How pleased would you be? Your child has lied to you by omission. The same is true of the Believer who goes into the normative Jewish community for conversion. Their concealment of their faith is deception. If they are found out, they are considered a liar and a fraud, and their testimony is destroyed- how can anything they say be trusted?

The third option is to buy your conversion papers. People spend thousands of dollars per person to gain conversion documents without going through the long process of conversion, in essence trying to buy their identity and acceptance. These same people often condemn the Catholic church for their history of buying and selling indulgences, but isn’t this the same concept? Buying these papers from a Rabbi also causes the Rabbi to sin, as he is lying by saying he oversaw your conversion process and that you have met all the requirements before granting you these papers. You have made your faith into something that can be bought and sold, thus diminishing it’s worth.

More :http://jerusalemcouncil.org/halacha/giyur/orthodox-conversion-a-biblical-perspective/

[emmiedahl]

That link is disturbing!

So what does the conversion process entail? You must enter into the Orthodox Jewish community, living among them for a one to two year period, during which you must show yourself to be committed to living an Orthodox lifestyle, a lifestyle that cannot include a belief in Y’shua. You attend classes, you participate in community life, and you often have people from that community staying with you from time to time so as to make sure you are not playing a part. If you are a man you go through circumcision, and both men and women must go through the mikvah. At the end of this time, the Rabbi of the community will give you a paper that recognizes you as a convert, allowing you to fully enter the community. The problem is, the Orthodox Jewish community will not give you conversion papers if they know you are a believer, so how do you get around this? You may flat out lie, denying the Messiah when asked. Or you can try to simply avoid the issue of the Messiah, omitting this part of your faith from any conversation. The third option is to try to bypass the entire process by buying your conversion papers.

Wow, from the horse's mouth! The article talks about "erasing the Messiah" from your life in preparation, how to do this.

Scam artists.

[Soldevi]

Usch. Horrible people.

Last night I browsed net and found a Finnish Messianic Forum. There is a thread where someone asks how to convert to judaism. Someone answers him with words of wisdom. I translate something she said:

"Why to convert to Judaism? If you mean you want to join to Jewish congregation? Are you Jewish by blood, for example your grandmother was born into Jewish family?

You won´t be a Jew in the eyes of God if you convert. You are born Jewish although earthly Israel will accept conversion but in spiritual sense you will never be one. (Soldevi´s note: I have no idea why she says something like this...)

Judaism is not just any kind of congregation where you just can walk in. You will have to sign a paper where you deny Jeshua. Some think they are cunning, they believe in Jeshua, but they still will sign the paper. I can only say that what you wrote, you wrote. You can deceive Jews but not God. Person like this lives in heresy: he has denied Messiah in the eyes of God. Do you want to be like Judah?

If a person is deceiving type in this kind of essential thing he is not in reality respecting God nor Jews but only wants to steal from the table of the Children. These kind of convertees have no value as "believers" in my eyes.

This is the very reason why I didn´t join into Jewish congregation. I am satisfied with my knowledge of my roots and that is not based in the unknown Issachars but real forefathers.

In New Testament Paul says that gentiles should not convert to Judaism. God will accept gentile through atonement of Jeshua and by faith in Him. Is that not enough?"

I don't agree everything but it was refreshing to read after all these texts how to lie, lie, lie.

A year or two ago there were at least two Finns commenting on Lina´s blog. I didn´t even know we had messianics here. Local fundies are very pro Israel in general but they are not messianic type. They generally say they want to bless Jews even though they are not believing in Jesus but they are the chosen nation and christians should honour God´s choice.

I think the Friends of Israel is the only well organized Judaism targeted evangelic group in Finland. A couple of years ago local Jewish congregation ended co-operation with the Friends of Israel when FoI´s president went and said in public how Jesus is the only way to God. Bye-bye grazy fundies... President of the FoI only did more harm saying how they will harm - even curse - Jews if they are not spreading word of grace and forgiving in Jesus to them. They mainly have done goodwill work, they have collected lots and lots of money for hospitals in Israel etc. but the evangelic work has been quite minimal. Not anymore, alas.

[Witsec1]

I should clarify - the Jerusalem Council/Sanhedrin of the Way site is advising against Orthodox conversion by deceit. Instead they want to set up their own Messianic beit din for "Orthodox conversion". They actually admit that this conversion will not be recognized by the wider Jewish community. So they are saying the opposite of what TOBeliever seems to think they are saying.

I'm curious where TOB got the impression that sanhedrin.org/Jerusalem Council did conversions that would satisfy the Law of Return. They don't make that claim at all, as far as I can see. I wonder if she'll come back after sundown...

BTW, the most recent entries on the jerusalemcouncil.org site are full of teh crazee. Numerology and astrology and eschatology, oh my! There's a series on the Book of Daniel that ends up with the pronouncement that Jesus will return Sept./Oct 2016. Mark your calendar!

Soldevi: et tu, Finland?

[Witsec1]

Bumping this in hopes TOBeliever will come back... Just wondering how she got the impression that the sanhedrin.org folk did conversions that would satisfy Israeli immigration, as they don't seem to be claiming this. And what does she think of the quote I posted about the conversion process?

[2xx1xy1JD]

Soldevi - I wonder if there is any connection to Yad Hashmona, which is a community in Israel originally founded by Finnish Christians which has become Messianic.

[Soldevi]

Soldevi - I wonder if there is any connection to Yad Hashmona, which is a community in Israel originally founded by Finnish Christians which has become Messianic.

I had never heard of Yad Hashmona before but I did some research. We seem to have more messianic groups than I imagined. Some of them openly state how their goal is to proselyte Jews, others are doing charity work only and majority are mix of these two. And I guess members of these groups overlap.

ICEJ is connected to Yad Hashmona, they have helped to build something called Bible House there, I understand it is a place to translate Bible to minor languages. (http://int.icej.org/) One Finnish travel company specialised in "Biblical travels" lists Yad Hashmona, too.

I also found an article where a researcher from University of Helsinki said that number of the messianics in Finland is unknown. Most of them keep their faith secret mainly for family reasons. There isn't an official messianic congregation in Finland, they gather together unofficially in homes. There is a registered society called Finland`s Messianic Association but it seems to be a tiny group. There is some activity with Hungarian Messianic group called Shofar (http://www.kehilatshofar.com/english/index.php)

I did find a video about Yad Hashmona. This is from a local Christian TV channel. Israel puhuu - Israel talks is done in Israel for this channel and there is often stories about messianic activity. Video is in English with Finnish subtitles.

http://www.ristintuki.fi/vod/player.htm ... slation=FI

"Israel talks - Messianic Jews in Yad Hashmona

Yad Hashmona is a Finnish Jewish society in Israel

How Messianic Jews found Finnish kibbuts? We´ll meet among others the very first Messianic resident Eli Bar David."