Messianics Becoming Jews?

[slh12280]

I found this post from a blogger that regularly comments on Lina's blog:

http://thehollandshome.blogspotDOTcom/s ... -results=4

 

Thought it was interesting from a "Torah Observant Christian" perspective. Yes, I know how much some of you guys hate that phrase. Couldn't find a better phrase though.

[pomology]

"How do we warn those new to Torah Observance about this terrible problem?"

Uh, don't appropriate somebody else's religious traditions for funsies? I mean, it seems obvious that if you don't expose people to the various aspects of practicing Judaism, they won't explore further and consider actually becoming Jewish.

Oh, poor babies, people are giving up their belief that Jesus was the Messiah, because they are touched by another religion. Cry me a river.

For the record, I'd feel the same way if some Jewish group that celebrated Christmas and Easter in a very gung-ho manner started wailing about their members leaving for Christianity. If you make your religion look like another religion, don't be surprised when some people with more critical thinking power than you start exploring the religion you are emulating and maybe decide that that other religion is right for them.

[GeoBQn]

Is that a sukkah her family is building in her latest post? She must not have gotten the memo that the top material is supposed to be something found from nature, and that is just sparse enough to see the stars through it at night.

[Dinorah]

This is the person who was apparently the victim of an anti-semitic attack. Obviously it's horrible someone would get attacked for their beliefs, no matter what, but when she discussed in the blog she seemed totally oblivious to the fact that she is not in the same situation as a real Jewish person and that 70 years ago there were people who ended up in gas chambers no matter how little they identified as Jews, and that she wouldn't have no matter how much appropriation she does.

[pomology]

This is the person who was apparently the victim of an anti-semitic attack. Obviously it's horrible someone would get attacked for their beliefs, no matter what, but when she discussed in the blog she seemed totally oblivious to the fact that she is not in the same situation as a real Jewish person and that 70 years ago there were people who ended up in gas chambers no matter how little they identified as Jews, and that she wouldn't have no matter how much appropriation she does.

Actually, I think that somebody who was big on appropriation probably would have suffered at the hands of the Nazis. But I also think a lot of them would drop these practices like a hot potato if they faced true persecution. I am so sorry that that woman's car was vandalized with a swastika. No matter how much these people bug the living hell out of me, and their cries of faux-persecution make me want to SCREAM, if they suffer real persecution, they have my deepest sympathy and concern for their well-being. But somehow I doubt these people would volunteer to continue their practices if it could land them in a ghetto. I sure wouldn't. Especially because their beliefs are not the thing at issue here, it's their practice of non-binding customs.

Edited to change "would" to "wouldn't" because apparently when I wrote this this morning, my brain wasn't working.

[Dinorah]

Well yes, that's the thing, a Gentile play-acting Jew could have gotten in trouble, but I'm sure they would have dropped the act and scraped all the Jewish stuff, which can be considered an understandable Jewish reaction but should give some insight that for some people no amount of scraping off could have worked. After all people who had all but forgotten they were Jews ended up in camps.

So, don't get me wrong, I do think it's truly terrible for many different reasons that someone drew a swastika on her car and I can sympathize but the fact remains that she isn't really Jewish and she should be aware of that. Instead fake Jews tend to perceive attacks almost with a twinge of self-satisfaction, as a kind of sign they've made it to the club, and it looks like an offshoot of the typical fundie persecution mania even though the context's different and there's been a real offense rather than an imaginary one.

[TOBeliever-]

Uh, don't appropriate somebody else's religious traditions for funsies? I mean, it seems obvious that if you don't expose people to the various aspects of practicing Judaism, they won't explore further and consider actually becoming Jewish.

Its not someone else's tradition, these holidays and ways of living are found in the "christian" Bible. What happened with this family is what is warned against within Rabbinic Judaism, and that is studying alone. It is nearly forbidden to study alone. They studied alone and were led astray.

Oh, poor babies, people are giving up their belief that Jesus was the Messiah, because they are touched by another religion. Cry me a river.

For the record, I'd feel the same way if some Jewish group that celebrated Christmas and Easter in a very gung-ho manner started wailing about their members leaving for Christianity. If you make your religion look like another religion, don't be surprised when some people with more critical thinking power than you start exploring the religion you are emulating and maybe decide that that other religion is right for them.

My response was less of a "how did it logically turn out this way" and more of a "these people are personal friends of mine and I mourn their loss in the world to come."

[TOBeliever-]

Is that a sukkah her family is building in her latest post? She must not have gotten the memo that the top material is supposed to be something found from nature, and that is just sparse enough to see the stars through it at night.

I got the memo, however we are making Teshuva one step at a time and the cost of the sukkah this year exceeded my funds, next year it will be Rabbinic Kosher.

[TOBeliever-]

This is the person who was apparently the victim of an anti-semitic attack. Obviously it's horrible someone would get attacked for their beliefs, no matter what, but when she discussed in the blog she seemed totally oblivious to the fact that she is not in the same situation as a real Jewish person and that 70 years ago there were people who ended up in gas chambers no matter how little they identified as Jews, and that she wouldn't have no matter how much appropriation she does.

I'm not sure how my situation is any different than anyone else that might be the subject of an attack due to race, religion, ethnicity. I choose to live out this religion, no matter who disagrees with it, I have that right to do so without attack or fear of attack.

[TOBeliever-]

But somehow I doubt these people would volunteer to continue their practices if it could land them in a ghetto. I sure wouldn't. Especially because their beliefs are not the thing at issue here, it's their practice of non-binding customs.

I'm going to address this one backwards..."Non binding customs" true story! I am not bound to follow Torah, I choose to.

No one knows how they would respond in this situation, but Jewish tradition and the Torah hold life in high regard, to supersede many commandments. Did the Rabbi's fault the parents for sending their children to Christians and Catholics to be saved? Did the Rabbis hold it against a family for escaping? for hiding? I think not.

[defrauding]

My response was less of a "how did it logically turn out this way" and more of a "these people are personal friends of mine and I mourn their loss in the world to come."

Oh, I see. In other words, you think that we Jews are all going to hell unless we become Christians.

"You're All Going to Hell" has never been a more appropriate user rank.

[Witsec1]

How many conversations have you had with observant Jews ( or non-observant Jews, for that matter) who are not Christians? Just curious.

ETA: About your beliefs I mean. Not about the weather or something.

[emmiedahl]

I'm not sure how my situation is any different than anyone else that might be the subject of an attack due to race, religion, ethnicity. I choose to live out this religion, no matter who disagrees with it, I have that right to do so without attack or fear of attack.

But you are not choosing to live out the religion. Specifically, you said that people who do choose to live out the religion are going to hell. I have much less sympathy for someone who is play-acting with my culture than with an actual person harmed for their religion.

[TOBeliever-]

Oh, I see. In other words, you think that we Jews are all going to hell unless we become Christians.

"You're All Going to Hell" has never been a more appropriate user rank.

No I don't pretend to know what the Most High has designated as the reward for his chosen people. I know that the Mashiach is Yeshua, to reject him according to our Scriptures is to be rejected before Hashem. This isn't pc but it is what the Scripture says. Matthew 10:33

[emmiedahl]

Torah quote FAIL!!! Real Jews don't believe in the NT. That is part of what makes us Jewish, as opposed to Christian.

[TOBeliever-]

How many conversations have you had with observant Jews ( or non-observant Jews, for that matter) who are not Christians? Just curious.

ETA: About your beliefs I mean. Not about the weather or something.

My husband has a number of conversations with observant non believing Jews about his beliefs, his work takes him into contact with a wide variety of people. He has met those who completely disagree with him, but no one that is angered by him. I have met with a few non observant Jews and they too have no issue with our beliefs or practices.

[TOBeliever-]

But you are not choosing to live out the religion. Specifically, you said that people who do choose to live out the religion are going to hell. I have much less sympathy for someone who is play-acting with my culture than with an actual person harmed for their religion.

Would you quote me where I said Jews are going to hell? I know I didn't say that, I believe I said I mourn their loss in the World to Come. I meant that I am sure they will be there, but I know what my Scripture says, so I worry for them.

I am not play acting with your religion, I am a Torah Observant gentile a phenomenon that has been present throughout history.

[Witsec1]

My husband has a number of conversations with observant non believing Jews about his beliefs, his work takes him into contact with a wide variety of people. He has met those who completely disagree with him, but no one that is angered by him. I have met with a few non observant Jews and they too have no issue with our beliefs or practices.

How about outside of a work context, where people might be afraid of offfending?

[Witsec1]

Would you quote me where I said Jews are going to hell? I know I didn't say that, I believe I said I mourn their loss in the World to Come. I meant that I am sure they will be there, but I know what my Scripture says, so I worry for them.

I am not play acting with your religion, I am a Torah Observant gentile a phenomenon that has been present throughout history.

Citation, please? Thx.

[TOBeliever-]

Torah quote FAIL!!! Real Jews don't believe in the NT. That is part of what makes us Jewish, as opposed to Christian.

We believe the entire christian Bible to be Scripture, inspired by Hashem. I know a number of real Jews who believe in the Torah and the Brit Hadasha and Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

[TOBeliever-]

How about outside of a work context, where people might be afraid of offfending?

I'm sorry these were social situations, and also while my husband attended Sabbath service or High Holiday services with 99% Observant Jews, when they discussed these things. He and one other man were the only TO believers.

[Witsec1]

We believe the entire christian Bible to be Scripture, inspired by Hashem. I know a number of real Jews who believe in the Torah and the Brit Hadasha and Yeshua Ha Mashiach.

Then they are Jews who have converted to Christianity. If they believe that a person's death atoned for sins, they are Christians.

[emmiedahl]

It is not possible to believe in both Christian and Jewish religions. To quote SoldierofOne's eloquent argument:

First off: for me, theologically and culturally, believing in Jesus and claiming a Jewish identity or religious affiliation is fundamentally incompatible. The Jewish litmus test for Mashiach (messiah) is very simple and foolproof: if the messiah didn't fix the world, bring universal peace and brotherhood and establish faith in One God, he isn't it.

Without wanting to offend my Christian brethren, Jesus did not fulfill these criteria according to Jewish definitions of messiah. Christian theology of course would present the counter-claim that Jesus provides redemption from Original Sin and offers personal salvation through his sacrifice on the cross. Within a christological worldview, I think this is internally consistent. Original Sin = Christ to absolve us from Original Sin. But it is not a Jewish view.

The Jewish view is that we keep Torah (according to your denominational interpretation of what that means ) and bring the world closer to the Messianic Age (and Mashiach, depending on your personal theology) through good deeds and 'tikkun olam' - repair of the world. In a sense, Torah is our roadmap to steer our broken world towards Redemption. And also in that sense, 'combining' Torah with Jesus makes no sense. It's an either/or option. Either, you embrace Torah's vision of the Eschaton or Christ's vision of salvation but they are mutually exclusive.

To put it simply: (and this is I what respectfully tell missionaries) "Jesus is the solution to a problem I don't have". We Jews do not embrace the concept of Original Sin and hence we do not 'need' Jesus to fix that for us.

Of course, fundamentalists would disagree with that perception but as we say in Hebrew, 'ain mah la'asot' - there's nothing we can do about that

I'm stating the obvious here, of course, but Messianic 'Judaism' fails both faith communities. It is offensive to Christianity because it somehow distrusts the central tenets of Christianity - namely that Christ is your redeemer. And it is offensive to Judaism for all the reasons stated above and more. It negates Torah and Torah's vision of Redemption. Not to mention the historical sensitivities and issues of cultural appropriation.

Now, I certainly can understand that Christians want to learn more about the faith of their savior. Placing the historical Jesus in a 'Jewish' context is a very healthy thing to do. God knows that Jesus' Jewish origins were whitewashed in antisemitic thought. I also understand that Christians might try to graft some Jewish practices into their own Christian practices. But that doesn't make it Judaism: neither culturally, historically or theologically.

What I do wonder, however, is whether Messianic 'Judaism' represents an (awkward) phase of transitioning between Christianity and Judaism. Some Messianic 'Jews' may end up changing their mind about how they feel about Christ and pursuing a 'normative' Jewish conversion - sans Jesus. I would argue, however, that finding acceptance in a Jewish community after having had a 'Messianic' past is harder, though because of fears of proselytizing Jews to bring them to Christ.

So... if there are Messianic 'Jews' reading this (and I am hardly the authority on Judaism, but still ), please consider this. If you want to embrace Judaism for its own sake, go for it. We have a tradition of welcoming the stranger and convert. But if you want to hold onto your faith in Christ, please pursue other avenues. You are doing Christianity, Judaism and yourself a disservice.

Your friends who convert to Judaism are doing so because they look beyond a few rituals and see the whole picture of being Jewish. Your concern for their afterlife marks you are Christian--Jews don't believe in Hell because it was not mentioned or alluded to in the Torah.

[TOBeliever-]

Citation, please? Thx.

Jewish Historian and contemporary of Yeshua - Josephus mentions that the Jews in Antioch "were constantly attracting to their religious ceremonies multitudes of Greek, and these they had in some measure incorporated with themselves." He also states that "But no one need wonder that there was so much wealth in our temple, for all the Jews throughout the habitable world, and fearers of God, even those from Asia and Europe, had been contributing to it for a very long time."

[emmiedahl]

That muddled explanation does not show a single Torah Observant gentile.