Messianics Becoming Jews?

[pomology]

I think you are adding to the text, he clearly says to do this in remembrance of me. I think a very good case can be made for it being purely symbolic. And like I posted before the Rabbis say that the wine is in remembrance of blood and on the seder children's blood!!

Where are you getting this? Everything that I can find by googling things remotely close to these terms is about blood libel.

Also, my boy Rashi says the mixed multitudes refer to ethnically diverse converts. Which you are not.

[TOBeliever-]

I see that you don't understand how the Jewish calendar works; as a result, you're still off by a couple thousand years rather than a couple hundred.

(Hint: When was Abraham said to have been born?)

1948? I can see what you mean.

[TOBeliever-]

Where are you getting this? Everything that I can find by googling things remotely close to these terms is about blood libel.

Also, my boy Rashi says the mixed multitudes refer to ethnically diverse converts. Which you are not.

Rashi does say that but at what point are they not called mixed multitude and are officially Israelites? not after a year?

In a book written by Yaakov Meir Strauss http://www.feldheim.com/authors/strauss ... -days.html you can find parts of it on google books I think.

[pomology]

Rashi does say that but at what point are they not called mixed multitude and are officially Israelites? not after a year?

In a book written by Yaakov Meir Strauss http://www.feldheim.com/authors/strauss ... -days.html you can find parts of it on google books I think.

Yeah, but they also didn't believe something entirely contrary to the rest of the Jewish people. But whatever. They also didn't believe all Jews were going to hell.

[TOBeliever-]

Thanks for answering my question. You didn't really address the part about Christ's death, though. Do you believe it is associated in any way with atonement for sin? Why did Jesus have to die?

I didn't address that because I haven't come to terms with some new studies that I am doing on the subject. I don't know what I know vs believe on this topic.

[TOBeliever-]

Yeah, but they also didn't believe something entirely contrary to the rest of the Jewish people. But whatever. They also didn't believe all Jews were going to hell.

So because I do believe something the rest of Jewish people don't than I'm not right that they weren't Jews, but G-d fearers? That doesn't make sense.

Don't the Lubavitchers believe their Rebbe to be the Messiah? and that he is coming back?

I don't believe all Jews are going to Hell.

[GeoBQn]

Where are you getting this? Everything that I can find by googling things remotely close to these terms is about blood libel.

Also, my boy Rashi says the mixed multitudes refer to ethnically diverse converts. Which you are not.

I've been looking this up. It comes from a line in the Mishnah. Other interpretations are that it symbolizes the blood of circumcision, the blood on the doorposts of the Israelites, and the blood from the first plague. Also, rabbis point to the verse from Proverbs 23:31, "Do not look at the wine as it reddens." This implies that red wine is the superior to white. I found another site that claims in ancient times, white wine was cheaper, in price and quality, since it was often diluted by merchants. Since Jews are meant to eat like royalty during the seder, the more expensive and undiluted red wine was preferred. Everything else I've read from (actual) Orthodox websites said that red wine is preferred, but not required. Ashkenazic Jews would make yellow wine out of raisins specifically to avoid charges of blood libel.

[formergothardite]

So because I do believe something the rest of Jewish people don't than I'm not right that they weren't Jews, but G-d fearers? That doesn't make sense.

Don't the Lubavitchers believe their Rebbe to be the Messiah? and that he is coming back?

I don't believe all Jews are going to Hell.

But you do believe that something bad is probably going to happen to them since they rejected Jesus, right?

[TOBeliever-]

But you do believe that something bad is probably going to happen to them since they rejected Jesus, right?

I don't know what the result is of rejecting the Messiah, I know that my scriptures say that whoever denies him before man will denied before the Most High, but I'm not sure what that means. I don't have evil thoughts towards non-believers in Yeshua. I don't really think about their fate at all Jew or Gentile, like I said before I'm not evangelical. My scripture says to disciple not convert.

[Soldevi]

Whatever happened to this: "Therefore, as you go, disciple people in all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit"? Some translations use word teach. If you are instructed to teach all nations and baptize them, how is that not an evangelical act? That was something your Yeshua said, in the imperative wording. If you teach them about Yeshua/Christ/Jesus/whatevah then you are being evangelical.

[formergothardite]

If you really don't think about their fate at all, then what was with the mourning of your friends becoming Jewish?

[emmiedahl]

The Messiah would be born of the "seed" of a woman. Everyone can claim this.

The Messiah would defeat Satan. This has not happened.

The Messiah would suffer while reconciling men to God. The verse you cited was written after the Messiah's death so does not count as a prophecy.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Shem. Genesis 9:26 does not say that: "And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant."

The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham. Genesis 12:3 does not say that, it says: "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through."

The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 17:19 says that " Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him."

The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham and bless all nations. Genesis 18:17-18 says that "The LORD said, “Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do, since Abraham will surely become a great and [a]mighty nation, and in him all the nations of the earth will be blessed?" Jesus did not bless all the nations, at least no more than Gandhi. Matthew 1:1 was written after Jesus's death and is not a prophecy.

The Messiah would come for all nations. Again, Jesus did not bless all nations.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 21:12 says that "But God told Abraham, "Do not be upset over the boy and your servant. Do whatever Sarah tells you, for Isaac is the son through whom your descendants will be counted." Not a Messianic prophesy.

Messiah to be sacrificed on the same mountain where God tested Abraham. Genesis 22:14 is not a prophecy in the original Hebrew, but rather a note that people still use the proverb, "On the mount of the Lord there is vision" because of this incident. Plus, Jesus did not die on that mountain.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Abraham. Jesus actually does meet this criteria, him and millions of other people.

The Messiah would come for all nations. Already discussed, did not happen.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Isaac. Genesis 26:4 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed

The Messiah would be a descendant of Jacob. Genesis 28:14 "Your descendants will be like the dust of the earth, and you will spread out to the west and to the east, to the north and to the south. All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring." Even if you did read this as a prophecy, which would take some mental gymnastics, all the nations on the earth have not been blessed by Jesus.

The Messiah would come for all people. Already discussed.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Judah. Genesis 49:10 Jesus was a Jew, but then so are millions of people.

The Messiah would be a King. Jesus was not a King.

The Jew's capitol punishment authority would be gone when the Messiah arrived. Not stated in any of the verses that you cited. And Jews had already lost capital punishment authority before Christ.

The Messiah would be a King. Jesus was not a King.

The Messiah would be a Prophet. Jesus has not made any confirmed prophecies that were correct. His followers claim that he predicted his own death (which anyone could have predicted considering what he was teaching and the political situation at the time). They claimed this after his death.

The Messiah would speak with words of authority given to Him from God. None of the above verses say this.

Those who refused to listen to the Messiah would be judged. None of the above verses said this. And those who refused to listen probably went on to live their lives. The NT does not discuss any specific example of one being judged as a result of refusing Jesus.

The Messiah would be worshiped by angels at his birth. Deuteronomy 32:43 does not say this. It says that Israel will be avenged, her enemies punished, which Jesus did not do.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Boaz & Ruth.Ruth 4:12-17 does not say this.

Did you just randomly grab verses? Most of these do not say anything resembling what you claim they do.

I will have to deal with the rest of the prophecies later, but so far we have established that the Messiah is a Jew and so is Jesus. There are also several prophecies in your own list that Christ did not fulfill, which automatically makes him not the Messiah. You can't say, The Messiah is a King, and I think Jesus was the Messiah, so I am going to call him a king even though he was not one!!! I mean, you can say that, but it does not make it correct.

To make it easy for you, I bolded verses in which A. There is a prophecy (most of these had nothing to do with the Messiah) and B. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.

I put in blue the verses that clearly do not say what you claim they do. I put in red the prophecies that Christ did not fulfill.

[defrauding]

Did you just randomly grab verses? Most of these do not say anything resembling what you claim they do.

They're copied and pasted from http://www.messiahrevealed.org/.

[Soldier of the One]

Did you just randomly grab verses? Most of these do not say anything resembling what you claim they do.

I will have to deal with the rest of the prophecies later, but so far we have established that the Messiah is a Jew and so is Jesus. There are also several prophecies in your own list that Christ did not fulfill, which automatically makes him not the Messiah. You can't say, The Messiah is a King, and I think Jesus was the Messiah, so I am going to call him a king even though he was not one!!! I mean, you can say that, but it does not make it correct.

To make it easy for you, I bolded verses in which A. There is a prophecy (most of these had nothing to do with the Messiah) and B. Jesus fulfilled the prophecy.

I put in blue the verses that clearly do not say what you claim they do. I put in red the prophecies that Christ did not fulfill.

Yishar kochech! :clap:

[Edited coz I can't spell Hebrew today]

[Guest Anonymous]

If you really don't think about their fate at all, then what was with the mourning of your friends becoming Jewish?

I think that TOBeliever absolutely thinks that she is doing it right, Jews are doing it wrong, and that Jews will be going to hell for it. I think she believes Jesus died for her sins, too. She realizes that if she admits to this stuff she's going to look like even more of an idiot, so she's backpeddling and equivocating.

Also, it's disgusting to call observant Jews (who are God's chosen people, according to the Bible) non-believers because they don't believe what you do.

[formergothardite]

I think that TOBeliever absolutely thinks that she is doing it right, Jews are doing it wrong, and that Jews will be going to hell for it. I think she believes Jesus died for her sins, too. She realizes that if she admits to this stuff she's going to look like even more of an idiot, so she's backpeddling and equivocating.

Also, it's disgusting to call observant Jews (who are God's chosen people, according to the Bible) non-believers because they don't believe what you do.

Oh, I totally believe that too, but I'm seeing if she will finally admit it. She keeps going on about how she doesn't believe they will go to hell and she just doesn't know what will happen, but in the next breath talking about how she thinks bad things might happen since they rejected Jesus and she mourns when people become Jewish.

[pomology]

I think that TOBeliever absolutely thinks that she is doing it right, Jews are doing it wrong, and that Jews will be going to hell for it. I think she believes Jesus died for her sins, too. She realizes that if she admits to this stuff she's going to look like even more of an idiot, so she's backpeddling and equivocating.

Also, it's disgusting to call observant Jews (who are God's chosen people, according to the Bible) non-believers because they don't believe what you do.

Right? She claims to be here just for the discussion, but most Jews don't want to have a polite discussion when somebody who is appropriating their traditions is calling them non-believers.Honestly, I really can't engage her in a polite way, because her calling Jews non-believers despite co-opting our tradition is fucking anti-Semitic and I find it incredibly difficult to engage anti-Semites (and homophobes, racists, etc.) in a polite way because they make me so angry.

[Witsec1]

Matt23: 2 "The Torah-teachers and the P'rushim," he said, "sit in the seat of Moshe. 3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. "

The Torah-teachers (100% of real Jewish rabbis, not Jews for Jesus rabbis), say that believing that Jesus is "God's Logos made flesh" is not compatible with Judaism. They want you to stop claiming Judaism while believing in Jesus.

By the way that explanation that you quoted from FFOZ about Jesus being "more than divine" is a great example of casuistry.

ca·su·ist·ry (kzh--str)

n. pl. ca·su·ist·ries

1. Specious or excessively subtle reasoning intended to rationalize or mislead.

I don't know if your purpose is to rationalize to yourself or to mislead others. Whichever, it's annoying.

I'm neither Jewish nor Christian, but your distortion of history is annoying.

[TOBeliever-]

If you really don't think about their fate at all, then what was with the mourning of your friends becoming Jewish?

Because their friendship is lost to us, they consider us idolaters now and reject an integral part of our life. I know that Yeshua taught that there is hierarchy of some sort in the world to come and I can't imagine that by rejecting him they will be towards the top, if you know what I mean. I guess my mourning would be in this world though, the loss of their friendship.

[TOBeliever-]

I think that TOBeliever absolutely thinks that she is doing it right, Jews are doing it wrong, and that Jews will be going to hell for it. I think she believes Jesus died for her sins, too. She realizes that if she admits to this stuff she's going to look like even more of an idiot, so she's backpeddling and equivocating.

Also, it's disgusting to call observant Jews (who are God's chosen people, according to the Bible) non-believers because they don't believe what you do.

I think that I know who the Messiah is, that he came and will come again. I think that whereas the Jewish people of preserved the Torah they have missed the Messiah. I don't think they are going to hell for it, anymore than they went to hell before Yeshua came. I'm not afraid of what you think of me, I haven't pretended to know everything, I just know what is right for me. I am sorry if I offended, the term I used is commonly excepted in my regular circles, I will be more careful in the future.

[TOBeliever-]

Oh, I totally believe that too, but I'm seeing if she will finally admit it. She keeps going on about how she doesn't believe they will go to hell and she just doesn't know what will happen, but in the next breath talking about how she thinks bad things might happen since they rejected Jesus and she mourns when people become Jewish.

I don't mourn them becoming Jewish, I mourn them rejecting Messiah. I know a number of believers in Yeshua who have converted to Judaism. This doesn't bother me at all.

[TOBeliever-]

Right? She claims to be here just for the discussion, but most Jews don't want to have a polite discussion when somebody who is appropriating their traditions is calling them non-believers.Honestly, I really can't engage her in a polite way, because her calling Jews non-believers despite co-opting our tradition is fucking anti-Semitic and I find it incredibly difficult to engage anti-Semites (and homophobes, racists, etc.) in a polite way because they make me so angry.

I think you are looking for something to "hate" in what I say. In context the term unbelievers clearly points to those who don't believe in Yeshua, and can't possible taken as being anti-semitic, if that term is to be understood as hating Jews and there by discriminating against them.

[Witsec1]

I don't mourn them becoming Jewish, I mourn them rejecting Messiah. I know a number of believers in Yeshua who have converted to Judaism. This doesn't bother me at all.

Can you describe their conversion process? Where did these conversions take place? Were they asked if they believed in Jesus/Yeshua? What is the difference between a Torah Observant Christian like yourself and a Christ-believer who goes through some type of conversion to "Messianic Judaism"? Why do they want to convert?

[TOBeliever-]

The Torah-teachers (100% of real Jewish rabbis, not Jews for Jesus rabbis), say that believing that Jesus is "God's Logos made flesh" is not compatible with Judaism. They want you to stop claiming Judaism while believing in Jesus.

.

There are other examples of G-d made flesh in the Torah.

Genesis 18:1-3, 10

The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground. 3 He said, "If I have found favor in your eyes, my lord, do not pass your servant by. 10 Then the LORD said, "I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife will have a son." Now Sarah was listening at the entrance to the tent, which was behind him.

Genesis 32:24-30

So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. 25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. 26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me." 27 The man asked him, "What is your name?" "Jacob," he answered. 28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome." 29 Jacob said, "Please tell me your name." But he replied, "Why do you ask my name?" Then he blessed him there. 30 So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared."

[emmiedahl]

Jesus did teach that there is a hierarchy. He taught that and many other things that are incompatible with Judaism.

I suggest that you go and read the verses that you posted here as "proof" that Jesus is Messiah. Not the NT ones that were written after his death, the OT ones. Most of the verses do not say anything resembling what you claim they did. Many of them indicate that Jesus actually was not the Messiah. Go read, honey.