Messianics Becoming Jews?

[Guest Anonymous]

Gentiles are not required to keep Torah. Jews are, whether they are believers in Yeshua or not.

Could you give yes or no answers please? I don't know if you are doing it on purpose or not but it's coming across like you're dodging questions.

Do you think Christians need to observe the Torah?

Do you think Christians should observe the Torah?

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider yourself Jewish?

[pomology]

So, I was looking at converts blogs to see what various things they were saying about Jesus (in regards to their conversion and if they were asked about him etc.) and somehow I got sidetracked and stumbled onto this blog: http://www.blackgayjewish.com I didn't think that this deserves its own thread necessarily, but this lady is awesome, she is smart, a good writer, and as you can see in her blog title has an interesting perspective on Judaism.

[emmiedahl]

The Sanhedrin site are Jewish people who believe in Yeshua, write them and ask them how it works.

I can only tell you they were/are converted.

They aren't my authorities, they aren't people I answer to.

They are the people that you share ideology with, people that you quote, people who are the leaders of your particular religious persuasion.

And, I am sorry to tell you, the people at Sanhedrin.org are not Jewish. They claim to be, but they were not born Jewish and did not have a legitimate conversion. The fact that they claim to be Jews until nailed down on the exact details makes them liars.

[FaustianSlip]

So, I was looking at converts blogs to see what various things they were saying about Jesus (in regards to their conversion and if they were asked about him etc.) and somehow I got sidetracked and stumbled onto this blog: http://www.blackgayjewish.com I didn't think that this deserves its own thread necessarily, but this lady is awesome, she is smart, a good writer, and as you can see in her blog title has an interesting perspective on Judaism.

I read that blog, and it's great. Really interesting stuff; I don't always agree with her, but she always has thoughtful stuff to say.

[Witsec1]

This is not the type of conversion I was talking about, within this site they admit that, "presently no other branch of Judaism will accept a Messianic Jewish conversion." and "Candidates must accept that Messianic Jewish Simcha probably will not give them acceptance in the non-Messianic Jewish community."

The type of conversion I referred is your Orthodox Jewish Conversion. Allowing the person to make aliyah if desired.

I can't imagine why you think referring to your Messiianic friends who have "converted" to Orthodox Judaism makes you sound more legit. It is obvious that someone is bearing false witness here. If the sanhedrin.org people say their conversion makes one eligible for aliyah, they are lying. According to the Law of Return, those converts would only have the right of return if they have a Jewish father or grandfather - and they would have been eligible even before the conversion. If sanhedrin.org is trying to represent itself as a legitimate, non-Yeshua-following beit din in order to allow its converts to make aliyah, they are lying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Ret ... ic_Judaism

[Witsec1]

Yes I do completely understand. I think it is horrific those things that were done in the name of G-d, against the people of G-d and I don't fault them at all for their feelings towards, Christians and "Jews for Jesus."

Obviously, you do not understand how horrific it is to claim that people converted by sanhedrin.org should be able to make aliyah.

You have not been very understanding to Jewish people here in this thread. Instead you have chided them for being too emotional when you explain to them what their religion really means, and that they will have a lesser place in heaven unless they give up their beliefs and follow Yeshua.

[pomology]

Obviously, you do not understand how horrific it is to claim that people converted by sanhedrin.org should be able to make aliyah.

You have not been very understanding to Jewish people here in this thread. Instead you have chided them for being too emotional when you explain to them what their religion really means, and that they will have a lesser place in heaven unless they give up their beliefs and follow Yeshua.

Yeah, and somehow she doesn't understand how that could possibly be anti-Semitic.

[formergothardite]

Gentiles are not required to keep Torah. Jews are, whether they are believers in Yeshua or not.

Are you of Jewish heritage? Because if you aren't you are saying that this is just an optional thing that you are doing for funsies.

[TOBeliever-]

I have a couple of questions as a fellow Christian who doesn't know that much about the Messianic movement. Do you believe that people of Jewish ancestry who convert to Christianity are still under obligation to keep the Torah? If so, how do you explain Peter's behavior in Acts 10? He very clearly broke Torah law by eating unkosher food prepared by Gentiles.

*Edited to fix my SOTDRT grammar

Conversion is not nec for the Jewish person, they remain Jewish as it is their birthright. They are obligated to keep Torah that is the covenant of Mt Sinai.

What was the outcome of that story(v 19-20)...he met with Gentiles...something completely forbidden to him as a Pharisee. The gentiles were his guests at his table(v 23)...his Kosher table. not the other way around. He explains the vision in v 28 "He said to them, "You are well aware that for a man who is a Jew to have close association with someone who belongs to another people, or to come and visit him, is something that just isn't done. But God has shown me not to call any person common or unclean;"

G-d is an everlasting G-d, he cannot change His Torah, negate his own word.

Matthew 5:17 "Don't think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete. 18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the Torah -- not until everything that must happen has happened. 19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the Torah-teachers and P'rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!"

[TOBeliever-]

Do you think Christians need to observe the Torah?

Do you think Christians should observe the Torah?

Do you consider yourself a Christian?

Do you consider yourself Jewish?

Christians should obey Torah, they don't have to for salvation, but they should, imo. I am a believer in Yeshua Ha/Maschiach - a Christian. I am not Jewish. I was born a Gentile, to a Gentile mother.

[TOBeliever-]

They are the people that you share ideology with, people that you quote, people who are the leaders of your particular religious persuasion.

And, I am sorry to tell you, the people at Sanhedrin.org are not Jewish. They claim to be, but they were not born Jewish and did not have a legitimate conversion. The fact that they claim to be Jews until nailed down on the exact details makes them liars.

I gave you that link because that is the only beit din I know of that will convert Messianics...did you contact them? I would love to see your email thread on that.

[TOBeliever-]

I can't imagine why you think referring to your Messiianic friends who have "converted" to Orthodox Judaism makes you sound more legit. It is obvious that someone is bearing false witness here. If the sanhedrin.org people say their conversion makes one eligible for aliyah, they are lying. According to the Law of Return, those converts would only have the right of return if they have a Jewish father or grandfather - and they would have been eligible even before the conversion. If sanhedrin.org is trying to represent itself as a legitimate, non-Yeshua-following beit din in order to allow its converts to make aliyah, they are lying.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Ret ... ic_Judaism

I don't need Orthodox convert friends to sound more legit...it merely came up in the conversation. Contact the sanhedrin.org and take it up with them I sited them as the only beit din I know of, there are others.

As for the Law of Return :

"Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to citizenship. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes. According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship."

"Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew."

According to Israel you are no longer Jewish if you voluntarily change your religion, didn't someone say otherwise:

"Therefore a Jew who has voluntarily changed his religion is not considered a Jew according to the law of return"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Ret ... quirements

[TOBeliever-]

Obviously, you do not understand how horrific it is to claim that people converted by sanhedrin.org should be able to make aliyah.

You have not been very understanding to Jewish people here in this thread. Instead you have chided them for being too emotional when you explain to them what their religion really means, and that they will have a lesser place in heaven unless they give up their beliefs and follow Yeshua.

I believe they will have consequences for rejecting Messiah.

I haven't said they can't be angry or even call me names, I'm not interested in getting into a yelling match.

[Witsec1]

I don't need Orthodox convert friends to sound more legit...it merely came up in the conversation. Contact the sanhedrin.org and take it up with them I sited them as the only beit din I know of, there are others.

As for the Law of Return :

"Those who immigrate to Israel under the Law of Return are immediately entitled to citizenship. However, differences of opinion have arisen as to whether a person who claims citizenship under the Law of Return should be automatically registered as "Jewish" for census purposes. According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if his or her mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Orthodox Jews do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship."

"Originally, the Law of Return was restricted to Jews only. A 1970 amendment, however, stated that, "The rights of a Jew under this Law and the rights of an oleh under the Nationality Law... are also vested in a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew."

According to Israel you are no longer Jewish if you voluntarily change your religion, didn't someone say otherwise:

"Therefore a Jew who has voluntarily changed his religion is not considered a Jew according to the law of return"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Ret ... quirements

Sanhedrin.org are believers in Jesus, and thus not adherents of Judaism. If any members of this beit din have Jewish mothers, and thus halachically Jewish they are not allowed to make aliyah themselves, because they have rejected Judaism. If their fathers were Jewish, they are able to because of a loophole in the law. But no Gentile who converts under the auspices of an apostate beit din will be considered legitimately Jewish. If they have convinced you that their conversions are legitimate, you have been deceived.

Followers of Messianic Judaism

The Supreme Court of Israel ruled in 1989 that Messianic Judaism constituted another religion (it is considered by most Christians and Jews to be a form of Christianity), and that people who had become Messianic Jews were not therefore eligible for Aliyah under the law.[9]

On April 16, 2008, the Supreme Court of Israel ruled in a case brought by a number of people with Jewish fathers and grandfathers whose applications for citizenship had been rejected on the grounds that they were Messianic Jews. The argument was made by the applicants that they had never been Jews according to halakha, and were not therefore excluded by the conversion clause. This argument was upheld in the ruling,[10][11] and the government agreed to reprocess their applications

[TOBeliever-]

Are you of Jewish heritage? Because if you aren't you are saying that this is just an optional thing that you are doing for funsies.

I will ask you to go back and check out the great post someone did of the history of G-d fearers, we aren't new to the game.

I am not Jewish but to say that I am doing it for funsies, is to negate my heart felt passion for the Torah of the Most High. I choose to follow His Word. If it has no bearing on my place in the world to come, then I couldn't have spent my life doing anything more worthwhile that being observant. I will have no regrets, but to return to lawlessness, I couldn't live with that.

[TOBeliever-]

Sanhedrin.org are believers in Jesus, and thus not adherents of Judaism. If any members of this beit din have Jewish mothers, and thus halachically Jewish they are not allowed to make aliyah themselves, because they have rejected Judaism. If their fathers were Jewish, they are able to because of a loophole in the law. But no Gentile who converts under the auspices of an apostate beit din will be considered legitimately Jewish. If they have convinced you that their conversions are legitimate, you have been deceived.

Take it up with them, I would love to see their answer to your concerns.

[emmiedahl]

I am not going to take it up with them unless they come here. I feel no need to. They are not Jewish, and they pretend to be so for the express reason of converting my family and friends to their false religion.

You claim to love the Torah. If so, you have read it, I hope. You would then know that the verses you posted here as proof of Jesus being the Messiah were not proof. You have proven with those verses that the only argument for Jesus to be Mashiach is that he was human and Jewish. Welcome to the club, so am I. But that does not mean I am the Messiah.

Can you answer these questions without questions? So far, whenever we ask questions, you reply with more questions. Can I have answers to:

The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David. Jesus's geneaology in Matthew and Luke show him to be a descendant through his father, who Christians claim was not really his natural father. If the New Testament is correct, Jesus was not actually a descendant of David. How do you explain that?

The Messiah will be a normal human. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. How do you explain that?

The Messiah will bring peace to the world, gather all Jews back into Israel, rebuild the ancient Temple in Jerusalem and unite humanity in the worship of the Jewish God and Torah observance. Jesus did not do these things. How do you explain that?

The Messiah will be a King. Jesus claimed to be a king, but he was not. He was born in lowly circumstances to poor people and died with no political power. How do you explain that?

His early followers acknowledged that he had not fulfilled the Messianic prophecies and believed that he would return in their lifetime to do so. He did not. How do you explain that?

[formergothardite]

I will ask you to go back and check out the great post someone did of the history of G-d fearers, we aren't new to the game.

I am not Jewish but to say that I am doing it for funsies, is to negate my heart felt passion for the Torah of the Most High. I choose to follow His Word. If it has no bearing on my place in the world to come, then I couldn't have spent my life doing anything more worthwhile that being observant. I will have no regrets, but to return to lawlessness, I couldn't live with that.

But it isn't required of you, by your own admittance because you are a gentile. So you are just doing it because you feel like it. You could quit any day now and according to you it wouldn't really matter in the afterlife because you have accepted Jesus. Just because gentiles have been doing it for a long time doesn't make it any better for you to go around acting like you are somehow better than people who follow Judiasm.

[Witsec1]

On immigration fraud and the the burden of proof:

Take it up with them, I would love to see their answer to your concerns.

No, it is you who must take it up with them if you have proper concern for the truth and do not wish to be a conduit for lies. You made the extraordinary claim that Gentile followers of Jesus can undergo conversion by Messianic rabbis and be eligible to make aliyah. You must provide the evidence, the burden of proof is on you. Anyone who is part of the reality-based community knows that Israel's law of return is not meant to permit immigration by believers in Christ who have no ethnic ties with Judaism

Regarding your supposed concern for Jewish people's feelings:

I believe they will have consequences for rejecting Messiah.

I haven't said they can't be angry or even call me names, I'm not interested in getting into a yelling match.

This seems like more sophistry. You haven't outright said that they can't be angry, but you have put them down for being too emotional. "Understand" can mean understand intellectually, or it can mean to have empathy for someone's situation. I have said you haven't shown much empathy, and you haven't. You are a Jesus-believer who follows Jewish customs and an ally of "Jews for Jesus" (generic term for all Jews who have converted to Jesus-belief). You know that this is likely to be upsetting to those of Jewish faith, yet you have shown no empathy with those who you have hurt by your statements. You have accused them, by implication, of engaging in "emotional vitriol without substance". When they object to being told they will be punished for not believing as you do, you say they are 'looking for something to "hate" ' in what you say. You aren't displaying any understanding for their feelings, instead you are putting them down for being too emotional.

Why everyone thinks you are a lying liar who lies by omission and dissembles like a mad thing:

Earlier, before you revealed the name of the organization that converted your Jesus-believing friends, you said:

In the Orthodox conversion they were asked and answered truthfully but in the conservative conversion they were not asked, though the Rabbi knew their beliefs.

OK, you are talking about conversions done by sanhedrin.org. Jews who have converted to Jesus-belief. You left out that detail. No would be the least bit surprised by a Messianic "beit din" allowing Jesus believers to "convert". You also know that they would not consider it a legitimate conversion, so you hid that detail. The Messianic website emmiedahl quoted was at least honest and open about how their "conversions" would be treated by mainstream Judaism.

Edited to fix formatting and make the context of the last quote clearer

[emmiedahl]

As far as I can tell, the leadership of sanhedrin.org are not actually Jewish. They are frum Messianics. They won't give any names, and they did not respond to my email regarding who they really are.

[TOBeliever-]

I am not going to take it up with them unless they come here. I feel no need to. They are not Jewish, and they pretend to be so for the express reason of converting my family and friends to their false religion.

You claim to love the Torah. If so, you have read it, I hope. You would then know that the verses you posted here as proof of Jesus being the Messiah were not proof. You have proven with those verses that the only argument for Jesus to be Mashiach is that he was human and Jewish. Welcome to the club, so am I. But that does not mean I am the Messiah.

Can you answer these questions without questions? So far, whenever we ask questions, you reply with more questions. Can I have answers to:

The Messiah must be a physical descendant of David. Jesus's geneaology in Matthew and Luke show him to be a descendant through his father, who Christians claim was not really his natural father. If the New Testament is correct, Jesus was not actually a descendant of David. How do you explain that?

The Messiah will be a normal human. Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. How do you explain that?

The Messiah will bring peace to the world, gather all Jews back into Israel, rebuild the ancient Temple in Jerusalem and unite humanity in the worship of the Jewish God and Torah observance. Jesus did not do these things. How do you explain that?

The Messiah will be a King. Jesus claimed to be a king, but he was not. He was born in lowly circumstances to poor people and died with no political power. How do you explain that?

His early followers acknowledged that he had not fulfilled the Messianic prophecies and believed that he would return in their lifetime to do so. He did not. How do you explain that?

You have already told me I can't quote NT to prove my casse, his ancestry is recorded both through his father (though a step father, claimed Yeshua as his son and was therefore considered by the community as his son) and through his mother (through a women's seed) but since I can't use those...

The rest you quote we believe will be fulfilled in the second coming. As to the confusion about his return...I don't know why they thought that, I don't believe Yeshua is recorded as saying his return would be within their lifetime.

[TOBeliever-]

But it isn't required of you, by your own admittance because you are a gentile. So you are just doing it because you feel like it. You could quit any day now and according to you it wouldn't really matter in the afterlife because you have accepted Jesus. Just because gentiles have been doing it for a long time doesn't make it any better for you to go around acting like you are somehow better than people who follow Judiasm.

I think quitting would matter in the afterlife, I think my portion would be less. I am not better than those who follow Judaism, they are the chosen ones of G-d, His children. I merely want to live a righteous life, how is that possible apart from Torah?

[TOBeliever-]

On immigration fraud and the the burden of proof:

No, it is you who must take it up with them if you have proper concern for the truth and do not wish to be a conduit for lies. You made the extraordinary claim that Gentile followers of Jesus can undergo conversion by Messianic rabbis and be eligible to make aliyah. You must provide the evidence, the burden of proof is on you. Anyone who is part of the reality-based community knows that Israel's law of return is not meant to permit immigration by believers in Christ who have no ethnic ties with Judaism

Gentiles can convert and retain belief in Yeshua. the sanhedrin.org beit din is the one I know about, it is not the beit din that oversaw my friends orthodox conversion. As I said before I don't know who sat on that beit din. I just know that since then they have made aliyah. The 2008 court ruling allows Messianic Jews to enter the Land and have citizenship. And there is at least one reason why the beit din might be a secret, is because violence against Messianic Jews by Jews is not unheard of within Israel.

Regarding your supposed concern for Jewish people's feelings:

This seems like more sophistry. You haven't outright said that they can't be angry, but you have put them down for being too emotional. "Understand" can mean understand intellectually, or it can mean to have empathy for someone's situation. I have said you haven't shown much empathy, and you haven't. You are a Jesus-believer who follows Jewish customs and an ally of "Jews for Jesus" (generic term for all Jews who have converted to Jesus-belief). You know that this is likely to be upsetting to those of Jewish faith, yet you have shown no empathy with those who you have hurt by your statements. You have accused them, by implication, of engaging in "emotional vitriol without substance".

The post to which I was referring was all cursing and hate.

When they object to being told they will be punished for not believing as you do, you say they are 'looking for something to "hate" ' in what you say. You aren't displaying any understanding for their feelings, instead you are putting them down for being too emotional.

I think that reply was for Emmidahl? and I do think that.

Why everyone thinks you are a lying liar who lies by omission and dissembles like a mad thing:

Earlier, before you revealed the name of the organization that converted your Jesus-believing friends, you said:

OK, you are talking about conversions done by sanhedrin.org. Jews who have converted to Jesus-belief. You left out that detail. No would be the least bit surprised by a Messianic "beit din" allowing Jesus believers to "convert". You also know that they would not consider it a legitimate conversion, so you hid that detail. The Messianic website emmiedahl quoted was at least honest and open about how their "conversions" would be treated by mainstream Judaism.

Edited to fix formatting and make the context of the last quote clearer

The conversion in the reform or conservative synagogue was a straight up Jewish synagogue, they converted because there was no Messianic community in their area. The Orthodox conversions were also straight up orthodox conversions...not Messianic conversions...the sandhedrin.org beit din had nothing to do with either one.

[TOBeliever-]

As far as I can tell, the leadership of sanhedrin.org are not actually Jewish. They are frum Messianics. They won't give any names, and they did not respond to my email regarding who they really are.

Well if they do let me know. I would like to see their response.

[emmiedahl]

You have already told me I can't quote NT to prove my casse, his ancestry is recorded both through his father (though a step father, claimed Yeshua as his son and was therefore considered by the community as his son) and through his mother (through a women's seed) but since I can't use those...

The rest you quote we believe will be fulfilled in the second coming. As to the confusion about his return...I don't know why they thought that, I don't believe Yeshua is recorded as saying his return would be within their lifetime.

I bolded the questions that you did not answer.

As to the lineage, I thought you might understand better if I pointed out the inconsistencies in your own book, which claims that Christ is of the line of Solomon through Joseph. Tribe was passed on in a patrilineal manner at that time, and I have never heard that Mary was also of the line of Solomon anyway. IIRC, the prophecies point to the messiah coming from Solomon, not just David. Mary may have been a descendant of Nathan, but Nathan and Solomon are not the same person. Feel free to tell me where in the NT this is discussed. It would not make a huge difference to me because those books were written several generations after Christ's death, but it might be something for you to think about.