Jump to content
IGNORED

Messianics Becoming Jews?


slh12280

Recommended Posts

It reminds us =/= it is. So you don't want to debate with real Jews (we don't keep New Testaments lying around our homes) obviously.

eta: To clarify, Jesus did not say, this wine should remind you of my blood. He said, this is my body and blood. That, my friend, is the difference between heresy and tradition.

So we can say the color of the wine reminds of us of the blood of children, and drink it.

In Corinthians Rav Shaul explains that the we are to remember the Messiah through the Seder's cups. His teachings show us that the "turning into blood teaching" is wrong. That the cups are no more the blood of a man than the seder cup is the blood of children.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 223
  • Created
  • Last Reply

So in Luke 22:19, Jesus is lying when he says, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.†?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Could you explain what you do believe about Jesus?

This divine, living Word is not less G-d Himself, yet at the same time, His living Word is a finite form of G-d that can function within the limitations of the created Universe.

The Word in John’s gospel is a circumlocution, just like “Dibber†in the Aramiac Targums which also means “word†and the Memra which again means “the Word†both of which were used to refer to Hashem when the translators worried that saying “G-d sat between the cherubim on the Ark†would reduced Him in some way. They would use Dibber instead and Memra was used throughout the creation narrative to express the active finite of Hashem’s infinite being. “Although His Memra acts as His agent, the Memra is not necessarily separate from Him.â€

John 1:14 “The Word (Memra, Dibber, Logos) was made flash and dwelled in our midst.†Parenthetical added.

John was saying that the Logos became human. “For traditional Judaism, those may be the most difficult words in the New Testament. To say that the Word became flesh is to say that, in some mysterious sense, G-d became a man. True, the Logos of G-d is not G-d in the sense of His unbridled and eternal infiniteness, but neither is the Logos of G-d a different or inferior deity.†The Logos/Memra is the expression of G-d, the intentional self-limitation of G-d, and the expressed self-revelation of G-d. To say that the Logos became flesh is to say the G-d became human.â€

“Yeshua is more than a man; He is more than a great tzaddik (righteous man); He is more than just divine: He is the expression of G-d’s very essence, nature and being – G-d’s Logos made flesh.â€

Unless otherwise noted quotes are attributed to FFOZ Torah Club Volume 4 B’reisheet

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A gentile convert is referred to as a proselyte. A gentile who aligns themselves with Judaism, following the one true G-d is a G-d-fearer. The Gentile court in the Second Temple was larger than any other court. http://www.betemunah.org/merit_files/image010.jpg

In order for Judaism to keep their religion and not be forced to follow Rome, the High Priests made a sacrifice for the Emperor of Rome in the Holy Temple. Non-Jews were not afforded the opportunity to shun Roman law so many became proselytes.

I don't think this supports your point. There were true converts to Judaism, and there were God-fearers who followed the Noahide laws but not the rest of the Torah. Messianic "Jews" are neither of those two things.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your answer, TOB. You said you didn't believe anyone's death atones for sin. Can you elaborate? What are your beliefs about Jesus' death and salvation?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Jewish Historian and contemporary of Yeshua - Josephus mentions that the Jews in Antioch "were constantly attracting to their religious ceremonies multitudes of Greek, and these they had in some measure incorporated with themselves." He also states that "But no one need wonder that there was so much wealth in our temple, for all the Jews throughout the habitable world, and fearers of God, even those from Asia and Europe, had been contributing to it for a very long time."

I am late to the game, so forgive me if I've missed previous argumentation, but I just wanted to pitch in :)

TOBeliever,

Yes, it is true: there were many Gentiles attracted to Judaism in the early rabbinic period (late Antiquity). Of those Gentiles, some chose to convert and become full-fledged 'gerei tzedek' (righteous proselytes) and some chose not to convert (mainly because adult male circumcision was a deterrent) and chose to 'admire' Judaism from a distance as Righteous Gentiles who accepted the God of Israel. These are the 'yirei Hashem', the God-fearers. They too, would congregate at synagogues and find their spiritual life in the Jewish community albeit as semi-outsiders. (The 'gerei tzedek' became Jews in every regard after conversion).

So yes, there have always been Gentiles to affiliate with 'the God of Israel', so to say - be it in Biblical times, rabbinic times or contemporary times. And yes, there were varying degrees of 'Judaizing', ranging from 'hey this Jewish One-God idea is kinda cool, it beats pagan polytheism' [hope I haven't offended any Heathens or Pagans at FJ! :lol:] to 'I will cast my lot with the Jewish people in every way'.

This rather successful proselytizing (a bit of forgotten Jewish history) went on for a number of centuries. At one point, historians estimate that 10% to 20% of the Roman Empire were either Jewish or God-fearers or both. Judaism, being pretty much the only monotheism around (excluding Zoroastrianism and Mithraism for arguments' sake) was a big hit.

This all changed when Constantine converted to Christianity and the Roman Empire instated Christianity as a state religion. Judaism was seen as the 'competitor' and Judaizing became forbidden on pain of death: for both the proselytizer and the proselyte.

If anything, it was (early) Christianity that deterred Gentiles embracing the covenant of Israel. A very different situation indeed from how you portray it!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That muddled explanation does not show a single Torah Observant gentile.

Just augmenting what emmiedahl said:

A 'Torah observant Gentile' is someone who keeps the Noachide Covenant/Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach. Which includes belief in one, indivisible, unified God.

If a Gentile wants to keep Torah within a Jewish communal and theological context, then that person is free to pursue conversion - on the premise that this does *not* include a belief in Jesus/Yeshua in any way, shape or form.

The specific mitzvot/commandments of the Torah are an obligation upon Jews (by choice or by birth) only :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

How do you explain that Jesus did not fulfill the Messianic prophesies? He was not a descendant of Solomon, he didn't return the Jews to Israel, he didn't rebuild the temple, he did not bring world peace, and he did not unite the world under God? The Isaiah verse you quoted was about Israel, unless Jesus lived a long life and had many children that is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

also, ive always viewed messianics, as sort of a halfway house.. sort of like noachides, (though with some erroneous beliefs included) I know a few folk who were straight up xian, went to messianics, then made full orthodox conversion to Judaism..

others go into messianics, and revert back to more traditional forms of xianity.. others stay in messianic Christianity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not someone else's tradition, these holidays and ways of living are found in the "christian" Bible. What happened with this family is what is warned against within Rabbinic Judaism, and that is studying alone. It is nearly forbidden to study alone. They studied alone and were led astray.

My response was less of a "how did it logically turn out this way" and more of a "these people are personal friends of mine and I mourn their loss in the world to come."

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible.

Fuck off and stop treating the religion of me and my ancestors like a shiny new toy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think she flounced.

I want a flounce animation :(

Best I could do:[attachment=0]golden_flounce.jpg[/attachment]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So in Luke 22:19, Jesus is lying when he says, “This is My body which is given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.†?

No more so than when the Rabbi says that the charoset it mortar. During the seder we don't have to couch everything we say with "it's not really blood, mud, plagues etc" or this is just symbolism. As observant Jews in good standing at the Temple and synagogue the disciples of Yeshua knew what he was saying.

The Greek here may even mean that you are to drink this cup and remember my blood shed, or my martyrdom.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm going to say this as nicely as possible.

Fuck off and stop treating the religion of me and my ancestors like a shiny new toy.

It's not your religion, it is the teachings and instructions of the Most High, He gave them on Mt Sinai to a mixed multitude of Jews and G-d fearers. It's not a "shiny new toy" I have been observant for eight years, and you aren't the first person to tell me to stop...not going to happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Best I could do:[attachment=0]golden_flounce.jpg[/attachment]

Nope I have a life too, had to go live it. Back this morning to catch up :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think this supports your point. There were true converts to Judaism, and there were God-fearers who followed the Noahide laws but not the rest of the Torah. Messianic "Jews" are neither of those two things.

I don't know to what extent the Gentiles followed Torah whether they were Noahide, or kept only the "table laws" or strived to keep more with their eye on conversion. The Jerusalem council ruled that the "christian" gentiles were to keep the table laws and attend synagogue so that they could learn Torah. But did not require of them conversion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It looks like she made her blog private.

Again, yes I did, it is not meant as a blog for discussion and rude comments about my beliefs, it was meant as way to stay in touch with IRL family and friends.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's not your religion, it is the teachings and instructions of the Most High, He gave them on Mt Sinai to a mixed multitude of Jews and G-d fearers. It's not a "shiny new toy" I have been observant for eight years, and you aren't the first person to tell me to stop...not going to happen.

A shiny new toy can be 8 years old in the grand scheme of your life. It is my religion. It's not just my religion, but it is my religion and I am highly defensive of it (for what should be obvious reasons if you know a single thing about history). God gave his laws to JEWS. Only Jews. Not a multitude of God fearers. And I don't mean this in an insulting way. It's a core tenet of Judaism (the religion that you claim to know oh so much about) that the 613 mitzvot are for Jews and Jews alone and as a non-Jew you only have to follow the seven Noahide laws. You're also only suppose to follow the Noahide laws. If you are not a Jew, God doesn't CARE if you following the 613 mitzvot, it's not going to do anything for you. So, either try to develop some respect for the religion you're supposed to be practicing or STFU.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, hai! You're back. Can you answer the question about Jesus' death and your view of salvation? Does the crucifixion figure in there at all?

Also, if you feel like answering this: I know there are different groupings within Messianics. You quoted First Fruits of Zion above - do you align yourselves with them? What are the differences, if any, in what FFOZ believes vs. other groups?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.




×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.