Dillards 53: Making Assumptions and Indoctrinating the Children

[PennySycamore]

@Daisy0322, it seems weird when no one else in the group is doing it.  

[PainfullyAware]

To me it looks like Jill seems really insecure about herself versus the other women in college. She has to lean into the married with children act - "look how blissfully happy I am being a wife and a mom and fulfilling God's plan for women." I'm not a body language expert but the way she is turned away from the group and facing the other direction seems like a reasonably strong indicator that she feels uncomfortable. The stroller really sticks out like a sore thumb. Also how are they going to carry out Street evangelism without having fluent Spanish? And what is Jill going to do if she has to feed Sam every couple of hours and change his diaper? I wouldn't know what to do if I was wondering around on strange streets and didn't know where I could sit or where to find a washroom. 

Edited to add that I don't blame Jill at all for feeling uncomfortable. But I think the setup for this week will not be a fun vacation for her because, fair or not, she will be the odd one out taking care of Sam ( college students can go a long time without a break but she will need to stop every couple hours). And she won't be able to add a lot to the mission work because she has to take care of Sam. It just seems awkward for her to be there with the little one.

[singsingsing]

I think it's great that Jill is travelling with Derick. Being married and having a baby doesn't mean you have to stop having fun, stop travelling, or that you can only do things with other parents. That said, what I find extremely objectionable is that these two are constantly begging strangers for money. I'm sure leaving Jill and the baby at home would have saved Derick a lot of money. My understanding is that only Derick is enrolled in this program, not Jill. So Jill is going along just for fun. That's not cool. Not when you're fleecing people for donations. Fund your own vacation.

[Daisy0322]

I don't really blame Jill if she's uncomfortable. She's not use to "outsiders", she's in a strange country with a baby (that would make my mommy senses all code orange too even if it's not logical) and her husband I think makes her feel rejected while she's surrounded by "Nike" women who aren't going through the self conscious transition of postpartum changes. 

ETA- Jill isnt even my pet fundy, where is my head today?

[nst]

1 hour ago, Satan'sFortress said:

What exactly does a missionary group do in Guadalajara?  Specifically, where does the religious missionary part come in?  I know the Duggars believe Catholics are eeeeevile, but do those missionaries really go out on the streets and try to "convert" Catholics to Christianity?  To me, that is like trying to convert a robin into being a bird.  How does that work?  It must, on some level, or else why would these groups keep returning?  A number of my casual friends have kids who go on these trips, but I am not comfortable talking to them about it.

you made me laugh today - thank you - you get a brownie

and yes body language experts she is turning away from the group

 

[SamuraiKatz]

Those books messed up a generation of kids! (I thought this would be a short post, but now after having written it, I'll warn that there's quite a rant ahead!) I mean, the premise of the kids books is that there are these kids who think that they're Christians until the rapture comes and they find out they weren't real Christians and meanwhile they're stuck in a dystopia (and not the fun YA kind!) while the rest of their family is in Heaven. I've talked to so many people who developed a crippling fear of being "left behind." I was terrified every time I couldn't find my family or even when the sky looked kind of weird. There are so many pictures of Jesus coming back in clouds looking like this
Spoiler
so I got to the point that whenever I saw the light shining through clouds that way I would get scared. I was afraid of being left behind but also afraid of being raptured. It's a scary thought to believe you can be removed from the earth at any moment!
And then of course I felt terribly guilty for being afraid because I'm supposed to be secure in my salvation and be confident I'll be raptured, and I'm also supposed to be looking forward to being raptured rather than being apprehensive about my life on earth suddenly being over.
And that's just one aspect of rapture beliefs. I could write an essay on how harmful they are, from the fear that seems to be so common; to the sort of suicidal thinking they encourage or disguise (it's common for believing Christians to talk about looking forward to the rapture in ways that can sound identical to suicidal people wanting their life to be over); to the way they prevent true believers for planning for the future, like how several older people I know won't make plans for/after their death because they believe the rapture will happen first, or how my cousin talks about not needing to make plans for her daughters' education because the rapture will happen before they grow up, or how so many kids like me grow up believing they won't see adulthood (and it is quite an adjustment to start realizing that the future does exist); to the way it affects US politics like relations with Israel (which plays a pivotal role in the End Times), environmental policy (why worry about the environment when Jesus is coming soon to reset everything anyway?), other foreign policy (when the EU formed that was taken as proof that the End Times are here), and attitudes towards peace (the Antichrist will preach peace, which has made a segment of Evangelical Christians suspicious of anyone who advocates for peace).
This is one of the beliefs that I feel harmed me most growing up and so I've ranted about it quite a bit on here, including very recently in another Duggar thread.
I was thinking about it the other night though because I was driving home and saw a flash of light in the sky that I didn't immediately recognize. It has been almost 6 years since I stopped calling myself Christian and even longer since I stopped really believing in the rapture, but even after all that time, when I saw that unfamiliar light I got a twinge of that old fear that the end of the world was imminent. It's disconcerting to realize how much of a hold that fear had on me and how even now it isn't entirely gone.

I am so sorry you were terrorized with the Left Behind books and evangelical rapture theology.

I understand your little bits of fear even though you have left the belief system. I have been out for 23 years. I still have those moments of fear myself. It does get better. Those moments of doubt do happen less over time.

I hope time blunts your exposure to this toxic theology.

[LilMissMetaphor]

54 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

That said, what I find extremely objectionable is that these two are constantly begging strangers for money. I'm sure leaving Jill and the baby at home would have saved Derick a lot of money. My understanding is that only Derick is enrolled in this program, not Jill. So Jill is going along just for fun. That's not cool. Not when you're fleecing people for donations. Fund your own vacation.

I've seen this a lot lately, have you guys noticed it too? In non-fundie related circles also; people saying they are hard-up for money and asking for help from others to go see a friend overseas, or some such thing.  Maybe it's just more prevalent now with the ease of setting up a gofundme-type request, and in the past such people would of necessity restrict themselves to bugging folks they knew IRL.  Anyway, I don't like it.  To me it's super ballsy to ask strangers for $$$ for something that's really just something you want to do because it would be nice to do it.  

[Beermeet]

12 hours ago, Ivycoveredtower said:

they have been so weird about it all since the moment the i do's were done.  that weird Dip he did well kissing her. i just went back and rewatched it and then I remembered something creepy that I had blocked out Jim Boob stood up there and was the one who told Derick he could kiss Jill.  she is the only daughter he did that with. Super creep factor. 

Yes!  Then, Boob leaned in close to watch them kiss!  Ewwwww.    So creepy.

[seraaa]

1 hour ago, Satan'sFortress said:

What exactly does a missionary group do in Guadalajara?  Specifically, where does the religious missionary part come in?  I know the Duggars believe Catholics are eeeeevile, but do those missionaries really go out on the streets and try to "convert" Catholics to Christianity?  To me, that is like trying to convert a robin into being a bird.  How does that work?  It must, on some level, or else why would these groups keep returning?  A number of my casual friends have kids who go on these trips, but I am not comfortable talking to them about it.

The goal is to convert people to their specific denomination, which they believe is necessary for salvation. 

They don't believe infant baptism counts.

[Shiny]

1 hour ago, Daisy0322 said:

I don't really blame Jill if she's uncomfortable. She's not use to "outsiders", she's in a strange country with a baby (that would make my mommy senses all code orange too even if it's not logical) and her husband I think makes her feel rejected while she's surrounded by "Nike" women who aren't going through the self conscious transition of postpartum changes. 

ETA- Jill isnt even my pet fundy, where is my head today?

I think there could be a lot of truth to what you’ve said. Postpartum women don’t always have the high self esteem. Combine that with a die hard belief that bare skin is trying to steal men...she probably feels very insecure. I wonder what she thinks of those women. Even the most confident among us have felt jealous or insecure when we see someone dressed provocatively. Not that those women are by normal standards, but you know what I mean. 

[TheOneAndOnly]

Re that beach pic - How badly behaved is Derick if someone has to sit on him? 

[Daisy0322]

2 hours ago, PennySycamore said:

@Daisy0322, it seems weird when no one else in the group is doing it.  

Meh, we live up to the stereotype of the slightly trashy Lower Enlisted army family so y'all are probably right.

[sparklymagie]

I mean, I can't find a non-awkward way for her to have ended up in his lap for a posed group picture.  It's not like everyone was just hanging out and the photographer came upon them.  It clearly is a situation where the photographer said "ok, everyone stand or sit over there so that we can get a group picture! " And Jill and Derick had to make the conscious, active decision of her sitting on his lap, like that's a normal pose for a group picture.  I dont know if I'm doing a good job making my point, but I think that's a weird AF pose to default to for a group picture that isn't meant to be silly. 

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, Satan'sFortress said:

What exactly does a missionary group do in Guadalajara?  Specifically, where does the religious missionary part come in?  I know the Duggars believe Catholics are eeeeevile, but do those missionaries really go out on the streets and try to "convert" Catholics to Christianity?  To me, that is like trying to convert a robin into being a bird.  How does that work?  It must, on some level, or else why would these groups keep returning?  A number of my casual friends have kids who go on these trips, but I am not comfortable talking to them about it.

My family in the Dominican Republic and in the states is an odd mix. We are traditionally Catholic, but several of my cousin's children are Evangelical. My cousin is very involved in her son's religion, right now they are promoting a religious movie he is in. She was never really religious so somehow I think she got "born again". My cousin in Miami, who's son is a minister,  still is Catholic from what I can tell  (she posts things about the Virgin Mary, the Pope.... ) yet she also seems to have dipped her toes in her son's faith. All I know is my late aunt, who was staunchly Catholic, has to be turning in her grave! 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Many moons ago I met a group of   Mexican Medicine Women from the area dtwerp is.  ( pagan). I would love to see dtwerp try to convert them on the street. OMG!!!'

[Carm_88]

Many moons ago when I was in university, there was a couple who used to sit in the lobby of on the of the buildings and they were very enthusiastic about their PDA at 8:30 or so in the morning. It got to the point that everyone noticed them, everyone laughed at them, and they were eventually mentioned in the school paper when talking about where to have sex on campus. They stopped it after after that. Jill and Derick remind me of that clueless, young couple. They have no idea how weird and clingy they look. You're not the cool married couple, you're weird and making people uncomfortable. Just stop! 

[Ivycoveredtower]

2 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Many moons ago when I was in university, there was a couple who used to sit in the lobby of on the of the buildings and they were very enthusiastic about their PDA at 8:30 or so in the morning. It got to the point that everyone noticed them, everyone laughed at them, and they were eventually mentioned in the school paper when talking about where to have sex on campus. They stopped it after after that. Jill and Derick remind me of that clueless, young couple. They have no idea how weird and clingy they look. You're not the cool married couple, you're weird and making people uncomfortable. Just stop! 

they were mentioned in the paper oh man that must have been a hilarious read for everyone but them. 

[singsingsing]

7 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

Many moons ago when I was in university, there was a couple who used to sit in the lobby of on the of the buildings and they were very enthusiastic about their PDA at 8:30 or so in the morning. It got to the point that everyone noticed them, everyone laughed at them, and they were eventually mentioned in the school paper when talking about where to have sex on campus. They stopped it after after that. Jill and Derick remind me of that clueless, young couple. They have no idea how weird and clingy they look. You're not the cool married couple, you're weird and making people uncomfortable. Just stop! 

There was a couple like this at my high school. Every single day during lunch, they sat there in the hallway, all over each other. PDA to the next level, and always keeping an eye out to make sure people were watching them. I think they thought they were proving to everyone how cool and in love and grown up they were, but really everyone thought they were incredibly weird and gross and obviously overcompensating for something. No one was impressed, that's for sure.

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm embarrassed for them to be honest. They look pathetic in that photo. Stage 5 clinger + LOOK AT US WE'RE MARRIED" it's just so out of place. 

[Denim Jumper]

8 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Those books messed up a generation of kids! (I thought this would be a short post, but now after having written it, I'll warn that there's quite a rant ahead!) I mean, the premise of the kids books is that there are these kids who think that they're Christians until the rapture comes and they find out they weren't real Christians and meanwhile they're stuck in a dystopia (and not the fun YA kind!) while the rest of their family is in Heaven. I've talked to so many people who developed a crippling fear of being "left behind." I was terrified every time I couldn't find my family or even when the sky looked kind of weird. There are so many pictures of Jesus coming back in clouds looking like this

  Reveal hidden contents

so I got to the point that whenever I saw the light shining through clouds that way I would get scared. I was afraid of being left behind but also afraid of being raptured. It's a scary thought to believe you can be removed from the earth at any moment!

And then of course I felt terribly guilty for being afraid because I'm supposed to be secure in my salvation and be confident I'll be raptured, and I'm also supposed to be looking forward to being raptured rather than being apprehensive about my life on earth suddenly being over.

And that's just one aspect of rapture beliefs. I could write an essay on how harmful they are, from the fear that seems to be so common; to the sort of suicidal thinking they encourage or disguise (it's common for believing Christians to talk about looking forward to the rapture in ways that can sound identical to suicidal people wanting their life to be over); to the way they prevent true believers for planning for the future, like how several older people I know won't make plans for/after their death because they believe the rapture will happen first, or how my cousin talks about not needing to make plans for her daughters' education because the rapture will happen before they grow up, or how so many kids like me grow up believing they won't see adulthood (and it is quite an adjustment to start realizing that the future does exist); to the way it affects US politics like relations with Israel (which plays a pivotal role in the End Times), environmental policy (why worry about the environment when Jesus is coming soon to reset everything anyway?), other foreign policy (when the EU formed that was taken as proof that the End Times are here), and attitudes towards peace (the Antichrist will preach peace, which has made a segment of Evangelical Christians suspicious of anyone who advocates for peace).

This is one of the beliefs that I feel harmed me most growing up and so I've ranted about it quite a bit on here, including very recently in another Duggar thread.

I was thinking about it the other night though because I was driving home and saw a flash of light in the sky that I didn't immediately recognize. It has been almost 6 years since I stopped calling myself Christian and even longer since I stopped really believing in the rapture, but even after all that time, when I saw that unfamiliar light I got a twinge of that old fear that the end of the world was imminent. It's disconcerting to realize how much of a hold that fear had on me and how even now it isn't entirely gone.

Mr.Jumper have a running joke, inspired by the Left Behind series, where if one of isn't home when we normally are, the other texts "Were you raptured?"

[HarryPotterFan]

3 hours ago, LilMissMetaphor said:

I've seen this a lot lately, have you guys noticed it too? In non-fundie related circles also; people saying they are hard-up for money and asking for help from others to go see a friend overseas, or some such thing.  Maybe it's just more prevalent now with the ease of setting up a gofundme-type request, and in the past such people would of necessity restrict themselves to bugging folks they knew IRL.  Anyway, I don't like it.  To me it's super ballsy to ask strangers for $$$ for something that's really just something you want to do because it would be nice to do it.  

I’ve seen people do that to fund their community sports team and to pay medical bills (for themselves, family, friends, pets). And a honeymoon registry, where a couple asked all their Facebook friends to donate to their vacation fund. That one was ridiculous. I’m fine with someone putting that on the registry sent to guests, but to posting it to everyone you know is tacky.

1 hour ago, singsingsing said:

There was a couple like this at my high school. Every single day during lunch, they sat there in the hallway, all over each other. PDA to the next level, and always keeping an eye out to make sure people were watching them. I think they thought they were proving to everyone how cool and in love and grown up they were, but really everyone thought they were incredibly weird and gross and obviously overcompensating for something. No one was impressed, that's for sure.

In high school when my friends and their boyfriends would make out in the hall I’d stand behind the guy and make faces at my friend, so if she opened her eyes she’d see me. Then it got to the point where if they made out before school or during lunch or whatever, they KNEW I was there, making faces. One of the boyfriends, whom I’m also friends with and have known since elementary school, called me a cockblock. I took that to be a cool new nickname/term of endearment. The other boyfriend of a friend didn’t find it so funny. But one time that couple was making out during lunch, and a teacher came by and said to my friend, “X, you don’t open your mouth that wide in class.” I never felt more appreciation for that man in my life, because it was hilarious and I was just sitting there being ignored and feeling awkward..

[Daisy0322]

Im guilty of being "that girl" in high school lol it really wasn't for attention sex/making out was really just my only interest and all I wanted to do. Probably TMI but I still have an outrageous sex drive, my husband teases me about it endlessly.  I've talked to my therapist about it but she pretty much just said that I have no issue being monogamous and it doesn't cause me any issues so I'll probably just always be like a horny teenage boy.... maybe it's genetic because my whole family has tons of babies haha. Strangely enough I had no interest in sex when I was pregnant though.

[justoneoftwo]

Did Derik just tweet that he would support abortion to save Jill's life?
 

http://keepingupwithfundies.tumblr.com/image/172076742699

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Did Derik just tweet that he would support abortion to save Jill's life?
 

http://keepingupwithfundies.tumblr.com/image/172076742699

I would really want to know what he would consider to be 'the only way to save her life', though. There are very rare instances where a woman has survived an ectopic pregnancy, carried to term and given birth to a healthy infant. So if Jill had an ectopic pregnancy, would Derick consider it okay for her to have an abortion, or would she have to carry on because there's an infinitesimal chance she'll be okay? 

[Ivycoveredtower]

4 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

Did Derik just tweet that he would support abortion to save Jill's life?
 

http://keepingupwithfundies.tumblr.com/image/172076742699

ah but the person who asked the question used the word miscarriage. now lets ask him the same question in lets say Jill had cancer and needed chemo and an abortion would save her life but if she didn't the baby could live but she would die. would he give the same answer.