Dillards 53: Making Assumptions and Indoctrinating the Children

[nastyhobbitses]

6 hours ago, Drala said:

I'm glad you brought up the Israeli injustice toward the Palestinians, because it does fuel a certain amount of antisemitism on the left.  Although, like you say,  Israeli aggression or what the Israelis rationalize as self-defense doesn't speak for Jews as a whole. I also see it as ironic that my conviction that there cannot be peace in the absence of justice is rooted in Jewish teachings.

My brother's wife is Jewish (cultural, nonobservant), and we've had many conversations over the years about antisemitism.  Her view is that the historic claim of being chosen and set apart provokes resentment and triggers the wired-in human fear of otherness.   Sounds a little like victim blaming, as if to say: Due to the nature of their peculiar people foundation stories, Jews invite persecution. 

 BTW, I just finished reading Elisha Waldman's memoir, This Narrow Space: A pediatric oncologist, his Jewish, Muslim and Christian patients, and a hospital in Jerusalem.  It's a great read on many levels.  At a minimum, it helped me better understand the complexity of Zionism.     

It's all really complicated. I'll be honest and say that I ended up pulling away from a lot of left-wing activism because of my fear that my Judaism would be used against me, and it's just made me angrier at people like Netanyahu and those who support him, who (yeah, I'm gonna sound real victim-blame-y but it's OK because it's my own people) invite the destruction of Jews by continuing to pervert Jewish teachings and identity in order to oppress Palestinians. And non-European-origin Jews (Ethiopian Jews in Israel suffer a huge amount of racism). There are already plenty of people who want Jews dead for really dumb and illogical reasons; what Israel is doing gives people logical reasons to hate us. And it's just wrong to oppress people, but hey, what do I know? 

[Drala]

@nastyhobbitses How ironic that you feel your Jewishness would be used against  you by activists on the left.  Ironic, because I've sometimes thought labeling someone or something as "left-wing" or "liberal" was a dog-whistle for "Jewish" when said in a certain context by certain people.

The Palestinian/Israeli thing is above my pay grade, but it's not too difficult to see there's dirt on both sides of the street.  Since the Israelis actually have a fully functional state, they are in a position of greater moral responsibility regarding the use of state power, imo.   The international call for restraint on the part of the Israeli government recognizes that factions within the Palestinian community have made it clear they will never tolerate even a benign Jewish state.   Yes, there's clearly a rationale to "pulverize them into dust, trample and crush them like mud in the street," but I think it's short-sighted and betrays the nobility of the (liberal) Zionist enterprise.  

Aye, me.  The humanity of it all!   

"paraphrase of  2 Sam 22:43

[keen23]

23 hours ago, nastyhobbitses said:

The Anti-Semitism fueled by (often justified) anger at the actions of the Israeli government is particularly frustrating to me. It was Jewish teachings (and, ya know, basic human decency) that helped me see that what the Israeli government is doing to Palestinians is wrong. But I don't think every Israeli person is evil, and IMO it's especially silly to think that all Jews are evil because of the government's actions. To me, it's like thinking that all ethnically Chinese people, even Chinese people who have lived in the United States or Indonesia or Jamaica or wherever for hundreds of years and have precisely fuck-all to do with China, are evil because of what the Chinese government does to Tibetans and Uighurs. And I'd hazard to think that many of those diaspora members (maybe not a majority, but a fair amount) don't think it's good or right or acceptable to oppress Tibetans or Uighurs. And even if a lot of Chinese people in China aren't rising up against the situation, I don't think they're evil either. 

And on an unrelated but also kinda related point, I think we (white) Jews (because there are plenty of non-white Jews and their relative invisibility in the Jewish community is a whole other issue) do have to examine our privilege and understand that just because we suffer prejudice doesn't let us off the hook from examining and unlearning our prejudices. It's certainly been a process for me. I'm not nearly in a position to say that I'm the wokest bee in the bonnet or whatever. But I hope I'm a little better than I used to be. 

I guess another bit of comfort I have is that I don't really "look" Jewish and my grandpa changed his very obviously Jewish surname to a very Anglo-Saxon sounding surname to assimilate better, and my parents didn't give me a very Jewish-sounding first name, so I can disavow if safety becomes an issue. So whenever I feel scared, I just think, "hey, black people can't put on White Chicks masks like I'm kinda basically able to do".

I come from a few generations of cultural Catholics and Episcopalians. My parents became Congregationalist Protestants. I'm an atheist. There's no strong religion in my family for generations, minus the great-uncle who became a priest. I will honestly admit that I don't understand the rancor the Judaism brings out in many people. It's just so disturbing.

I do not understand Catholic Ireland vs Protestant Ireland either. Why is there so much fighting? Do they not realize that they're fighting over basically the same religion?

[luv2laugh]

I don't understand the Israeli- Palestinan conflict but from what I've heard, it seems a lot of them have done bad things to each other. From what I've gathered from snippets of certain readings, Israel has been oppressive and caused innocent blood to be shed whereas, extremist groups in Palestine have caused a lot of innocent deaths as well.

[RidiculousFundies]

On 20/03/2018 at 2:59 AM, lizzybee said:

A fellow mom told me tonight that the reason my 15 month old was going through a bout of picky eating was because he was learning to control me. Made me want to ask what parenting books she favors. 

Very sad, she'd probably tell me to whip my 4 year old when I tell him to do something and he says No. Or I'd be shamed for not already having beaten all the spirit out of him

[VelociRapture]

12 minutes ago, keen23 said:

I come from a few generations of cultural Catholics and Episcopalians. My parents became Congregationalist Protestants. I'm an atheist. There's no strong religion in my family for generations, minus the great-uncle who became a priest. I will honestly admit that I don't understand the rancor the Judaism brings out in many people. It's just so disturbing.

I do not understand Catholic Ireland vs Protestant Ireland either. Why is there so much fighting? Do they not realize that they're fighting over basically the same religion?

I think the trouble in Ireland has/had less to do with religious differences and more with politics to be honest. I’m likely oversimplifying, but as far as I know the Catholics want/wanted a unified and free Ireland, while the Protestants want/wanted to remain part of the UK. It wouldn’t surprise me if there were theological differences at play as well, but I think politics played a much bigger role. We have a fair number of Irish posters on here who could explain much better than I could, so hopefully one of them jumps in.

[geergirl]

4 hours ago, viii said:

I live in a smaller prairie city and I agree with a lot of this. I've also found that people are very firmly against racism if it involves someone who is black, or Asian, but the minute somebody is First Nations, it's free game. I find it so infuriating, but again - it's an attitude that has been passed down and too many people don't care enough to change their stances. 

Yes!  It's so true.  That's one of the big things I meant about the racism being weird there.  It's like there is a glimmer of awareness that racism is illogical but then the door slams shut as soon as it's about FN.

[nickelodeon]

2 hours ago, patsymae said:

I saw the comments but am not up enough on Jeremy to understand what he said. Just wondering if he thinks Jews who aren't also Christians are really fake Jews or just--and I have a lot of experience with these people--"incomplete" Jews. As opposed to Jews for Jesus (actually a mission of the Southern Baptist Convention) or other "Messianic Jews." A "complete/d Jew" (Kathy Lee Gifford being a case in point) is Jewish in origin and doesn't deny that origin, but has realized that all of the rabbis and scholars who interpret the scriptures that Jews effing wrote are too stupid to understand them, and only Christian pastors can point Jews to the reality of "yeshua" as the messiah and thus be completed.

I'm making perfect sense, right?

I don't know if Jeremy ever clarified what the fuck he means when he calls Jewish people "people who claim to be Jews but aren't", but I think it may have to do with what you're talking about here. Weird bad stuff!

[mollysmom]

On 3/20/2018 at 4:54 PM, Daisy0322 said:

Im guilty of being "that girl" in high school lol it really wasn't for attention sex/making out was really just my only interest and all I wanted to do. Probably TMI but I still have an outrageous sex drive, my husband teases me about it endlessly.  I've talked to my therapist about it but she pretty much just said that I have no issue being monogamous and it doesn't cause me any issues so I'll probably just always be like a horny teenage boy.... maybe it's genetic because my whole family has tons of babies haha. Strangely enough I had no interest in sex when I was pregnant though.

Girl!!! Me too!!!!! All. The. Time! 

[Ais]

@keen23 @VelociRapture

Politics and religion are incredibly difficult to separate in Ireland. As a general rule those of a Catholic faith politically identify as nationalist/republican (want a united Ireland) and those of a Protestant faith politically identify as unionist/loyalist (want to remain part of the UK).

Both sides have suffered indescribable pain and loss for generations and both sides have behaved deplorably. There are no easy answers when it comes to this country sadly.

[Augustus]

I have never met someone who is jewish. That I know of anyways. However the racism that people who are indigenous in my community face is horrifying. I was thanked today, very awkwardly I might add, for not being a horrible human being to a friendly little girl. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

1 hour ago, keen23 said:

I come from a few generations of cultural Catholics and Episcopalians. My parents became Congregationalist Protestants. I'm an atheist. There's no strong religion in my family for generations, minus the great-uncle who became a priest. I will honestly admit that I don't understand the rancor the Judaism brings out in many people. It's just so disturbing.

I do not understand Catholic Ireland vs Protestant Ireland either. Why is there so much fighting? Do they not realize that they're fighting over basically the same religion?

The fight is not about religion the fight is political.  The aboriginal  Irish (Catholic) feel the immigrant  English (Protestant) people have stolen their land and subjected  their people to poverty.  Some people liken the Irish experience to the Native American experience.  My Irish heritage was the reason my Scots grandfather insisted I be given up for adoption.  Thank Rufus he did as I would not have wanted to know his Baptist ass.  I don't see the 2 Irelands becoming friends any time soon.  That's also what fuels the IRA.  The whole thing has been going on forever and it's very sad.

[luv2laugh]

@Don'tlikekoolaid thank you for explaining that.

I come from a family with some Irish Catholics and was raised Catholic. I joined a FB group with mostly Protestant 5 point Reformed Calvinist and the hate for Catholics was OUT OF THIS WORLD. Some even mentioned it being a sin to attend a Catholic wedding.

[seraaa]

2 hours ago, keen23 said:

I come from a few generations of cultural Catholics and Episcopalians. My parents became Congregationalist Protestants. I'm an atheist. There's no strong religion in my family for generations, minus the great-uncle who became a priest. I will honestly admit that I don't understand the rancor the Judaism brings out in many people. It's just so disturbing.

I do not understand Catholic Ireland vs Protestant Ireland either. Why is there so much fighting? Do they not realize that they're fighting over basically the same religion?

That had a political dimension also, which happened to break along religious lines. It goes back to the fact that the (mostly Protestant) British colonised (mostly Catholic) Ireland. The Unionists - the ruling class - were Protestant, and the Republicans were Catholic. 

This is a very bad oversimplification, historians do not shout at me, but you get the idea. 

 

[cara]

59 minutes ago, Don'tlikekoolaid said:

I don't see the 2 Irelands becoming friends any time soon.  That's also what fuels the IRA.  The whole thing has been going on forever and it's very sad.

Things aren't that bad here. There are small communities on both sides that try to stir up trouble, and the NI government is dysfunctional. But overall it's a very peaceful and tolerant place. 

[Rachel333]

I'm not Jewish and thus I'm probably not particularly sensitive to those issues, but I've noticed a lot of reflexive anti-Zionism that comes across as plain anti-Semitism on the left too. Just for one example, there was an incident last year at the Chicago Dyke March where women carrying pride flags with Stars of David were asked to leave and told that the Jewish symbol (as in, it was a Jewish symbol before the modern country of Israel even existed) on their flags was "triggering."

[seraaa]

3 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I'm not Jewish and thus I'm probably not particularly sensitive to those issues, but I've noticed a lot of reflexive anti-Zionism that comes across as plain anti-Semitism on the left too. Just for one example, there was an incident last year at the Chicago Dyke March where women carrying pride flags with Stars of David were asked to leave and told that the Jewish symbol (as in, it was a Jewish symbol before the modern country of Israel even existed) on their flags was "triggering."

I remember seeing that, and thinking it an example of people trying to get something right and just...failing to do so, utterly. There's a lot of ignorance - I know I am not as knowlegable as I'd like to be - alongside the malevolent, intentional antisemitism.

They shouldn't have been asked to leave.

[Glasgowghirl]

3 hours ago, keen23 said:

I come from a few generations of cultural Catholics and Episcopalians. My parents became Congregationalist Protestants. I'm an atheist. There's no strong religion in my family for generations, minus the great-uncle who became a priest. I will honestly admit that I don't understand the rancor the Judaism brings out in many people. It's just so disturbing.

I do not understand Catholic Ireland vs Protestant Ireland either. Why is there so much fighting? Do they not realize that they're fighting over basically the same religion?

Being from Glasgow and having both Catholic and Protestant heritage, I agree about how similar they are. I was raised Catholic but have attended Church of Scotland services and only noticed a few different,  no communion and slight differences in the Lords prayer are the only major ones I can remember. 

A lot of the issues in Ireland and parts of Scotland are not just down to religion, most of the ones who are the bigots have never set foot in Church unless for weddings, christenings and funerals. Or have any idea about the history of the Irish conflicts but choose to spout hate. I've met people like that on many occasions and gave them a History lesson.

55 minutes ago, seraaa said:

That had a political dimension also, which happened to break along religious lines. It goes back to the fact that the (mostly Protestant) British colonised (mostly Catholic) Ireland. The Unionists - the ruling class - were Protestant, and the Republicans were Catholic. 

This is a very bad oversimplification, historians do not shout at me, but you get the idea. 

 

You are not far off,  many rich Catholics were just as much to blame for the famine and other tragedies as the British and some protestants, Wolf Tone being most famous, who supported the nationalist cause. I just hope Brexit and the issues facing the assembly in Northern Ireland doesn't derail the Good Friday agreement and reignite the troubles.

[Ivycoveredtower]

the Duggar's shared this picture for TBT with the caption like father like son.

lets hope not for poor little Izzy's sake.  he is so adorable to bad he is stuck with the parents he has. 

[Inis Mona]

I believe Izzy will grow-up to be closer to Jill than to Derick, since Derick seems to be very irritated with Izzy in general. I can imagine the tension they will have as Izzy gets older. 

No matter how many times Jill tries to post Derick with their boys, it won’t make a difference on how Derick appears as a father. Now Jill just wants everyone to think like they are “one happy family” when it’s anything but. I guess she’s still trying to convince herself that Derick is just “the best hubby and dad ever”. 

[acheronbeach]

7 hours ago, keen23 said:

I do not understand Catholic Ireland vs Protestant Ireland either. Why is there so much fighting? Do they not realize that they're fighting over basically the same religion?

Oh, me, me!  For many Belfast Catholic nationalists it's not really a religious argument,  thus the acceptance of non-Catholics around the Falls and in the IRA.  Big issue was Catholics not being allowed into government jobs (police, policy,  anything with any power)... or universities... or decent schools... or even being able to make a police report without fear of being beaten by the cops... so yeah, that's why MY relatives were nationalists,  not the simplistic American TV version of Protestants v. Catholics.

 

 

[DarkAnts]

On 3/19/2018 at 8:32 PM, Snarkasarus Rex said:

I still don't know why they didn't choose a young marrieds ministry vs. C3.  They could have both participated in such a ministry, Jill would be around people she could actually relate to, and they wouldn't look awkward AF in pics like they do with a bunch of coeds.  DWreck sure seems to miss his college days a lot...

 

I wonder if Derick is their version of a TA. That service could help pay for Dericks tuition.

[BlessaYourHeart]

1 hour ago, acheronbeach said:

Oh, me, me!  For many Belfast Catholic nationalists it's not really a religious argument,  thus the acceptance of non-Catholics around the Falls and in the IRA.  Big issue was Catholics not being allowed into government jobs (police, policy,  anything with any power)... or universities... or decent schools... or even being able to make a police report without fear of being beaten by the cops... so yeah, that's why MY relatives were nationalists,  not the simplistic American TV version of Protestants v. Catholics.

 

 

It’s not even as simple as that either. Many Protestants were involved in the original civil rights movement in the 60s that kicked off the Troubles, particularly in  Derry/Londonderry. Working class Protestants were living in horrible conditions as well as their catholic neighbours. It’s wasn’t as large scale, but it was definitely there. The man who formed the IPP (home rule party)  in the late 1800’s/ early 1900’s was a Protestant man. 

You’re right, it’s definitly far more complicated than Americans tend to think. More political, less religious. 

[JillRodsEyeliner]

2 hours ago, Inis Mona said:

I believe Izzy will grow-up to be closer to Jill than to Derick, since Derick seems to be very irritated with Izzy in general. I can imagine the tension they will have as Izzy gets older. 

No matter how many times Jill tries to post Derick with their boys, it won’t make a difference on how Derick appears as a father. Now Jill just wants everyone to think like they are “one happy family” when it’s anything but. I guess she’s still trying to convince herself that Derick is just “the best hubby and dad ever”. 

Didn't Derwood mention how "defiant" little Izzy is? For Pete's sake, he is a little baby. He's two, enjoy him and let him be little.

[nastyhobbitses]

2 hours ago, Inis Mona said:

I believe Izzy will grow-up to be closer to Jill than to Derick, since Derick seems to be very irritated with Izzy in general. I can imagine the tension they will have as Izzy gets older. 

No matter how many times Jill tries to post Derick with their boys, it won’t make a difference on how Derick appears as a father. Now Jill just wants everyone to think like they are “one happy family” when it’s anything but. I guess she’s still trying to convince herself that Derick is just “the best hubby and dad ever”. 

I think that Jill and Derick both have a tendency to retreat into fantasy to escape their hardships, self-inflicted and otherwise, and their efforts to act on those fantasies have been almost uniformly horrible life choices for both of them and their children. Derick retreated into the fantasy of living high off the hog in a big fundie family when his dad died and his mom got cancer. Jill glommed onto the fantasy of a perfect married life that had been sold to her since childhood. Jill was in denial about how dangerous her birth plan was and only avoided the consequences of that by sheer dumb luck. Derick imagines persecution at every turn and lashes out at it constantly to satisfy his persecution complex. Derick and Jill imagined a White Savior Missionary life in the jungles of Central America to escape the fallout of Josh. Jill keeps a death grip on that fantasy of being a perfect wife to a perfect husband and perfect children. Derick joined a college youth group so he could relive his college days and escape the actual responsibilities of marriage and fatherhood.