Dillards 45: The Grift Goes On

[BabyFactoryClosing]

7 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Do you have a reference for that? Intuitively, I would assume it would be driving in a car, as many more women die in road accidents that giving birth or being in a relation as more women die by being murdered by their partners, or by smoking cigarettes, as more women die by lung cancer than giving birth. 

I mean, in sub-saharan Africa for sure the maternal mortality rate is high, but in the Western world I'd like to see the statistics. It might well be calculated in a different way that I would intuitively do. 

I suppose it would depend on how you define danger. On average each year about 4,900 women die in car accidents whereas about 900 die in childbirth. However about 65,000 will experience severe injury or near death experience. When compared to the fact that A. You obviously drive in a car far more often than you give birth and B. if everyone drove with or like a professional the way that births are almost always handled by professionals, car mortality rates would go down significantly, its a fair assessment that birth is more dangerous.

[Rachel333]

13 minutes ago, SorenaJ said:

Do you have a reference for that? Intuitively, I would assume it would be driving in a car, as many more women die in road accidents that giving birth or being in a relation as more women die by being murdered by their partners, or by smoking cigarettes, as more women die by lung cancer than giving birth. 

I mean, in sub-saharan Africa for sure the maternal mortality rate is high, but in the Western world I'd like to see the statistics. It might well be calculated in a different way that I would intuitively do. 

It's just something I've heard doctors say multiple times. Maybe I'll try to find the mortality rates later and compare them, but when you talk about driving in cars you've got to consider that it's something most women in the Western world do incredibly frequently while giving birth is something most women do only a few times in their life, so you can't directly compare the numbers of women who die doing both. You have to look at the risk per event, which is why you could have much higher numbers of women dying in car wrecks than in birth but birth could still be more dangerous.

[SorenaJ]

Just now, Rachel333 said:

It's just something I've heard doctors say multiple times. Maybe I'll try to find the mortality rates later and compare them, but when you talk about driving in cars you've got to consider that it's something most women in the Western world do incredibly frequently while giving birth is something most women do only a few times in their life, so you can't directly compare the numbers of women who die doing both, you have to look at the risk per event, which is why you could have much higher numbers of women dying in car wrecks than in birth but birth could still be more dangerous.

Ah okay, yeah, if you look at risk per event, then I'm sure childbirth would be the most dangerous thing you could do. I was looking at it from a life-time odds perspective. 

[ElToro]

This was on the BBC yesterday- shocking stats.

Why do so many women die

US has maternal mortality rates that are rising and are above other countries (such as Iran, Thailand, Vietnam) but the stats are particularly shocking when broken into different ethnicities. While white women have 13 deaths per 100,000 (even high compared to other rich nations), black women have rates of 44 per 100,000. Truly appalling and WTF is going on...?

 

On another note, I have had both a hospital birth and a home birth.... All good, even with an emergency haemmorhage afterwards. Where I live, the (real, qualified) midwives come to you whether you are at home or the hospital. Their expertise plus a quick ambulance ride to the hospital meant I was ok.... Mind you, lack of blood meant I did have weirdly white gums for about a week afterwards.

[crazysnark]

14 hours ago, Heidijoey said:

  

My problem with Jills home birth with Israel was that it took her SO long to finally go to the hospital. 

That and a lot of the things she did and said during her birth special blew my mind. First of all she took castor oil to start labor. This is a huge no no as castor oil is shown to cause the baby to have a bowel movement before birth and this can lead to infection (this ended up happening to Jill). Also when her water broke she said that labor usually takes 24 hours to start after the water breaks. That is total garbage, baby needs to be OUT after 24 hours of broken waters. I think she finally gave birth on day 3 of water being broken. She didn't go the hospital until she saw the meconium. That on top of having broken water for that long is just stupidity. To top all of that off when midwife Jill got the the hospital the dr was basically like "um, he's TRANSVERSE". How is she a midwife and can't even feel her own belly and feel he is NOT head down. She needs to stay far away from pregnant women and if/when she gets pregnant again needs to plan a hospital birth from the start. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I'm still surprised Israel didn't have any issues with how long Jill waited to go to the hospital. 

[crazysnark]

16 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

I'm still surprised Israel didn't have any issues with how long Jill waited to go to the hospital. 

Me too. I think Samuel didn't get as lucky with how hush hush his delivery was. 

[2manyKidzzz]

As I have said previously I REALLY do not want to read here one day of a tragedy with regard to the pregnancies and deliveries of the Duggars. 

I’m sure I am not alone. 

[crazysnark]

Just now, 2manyKidzzz said:

As I have said previously I REALLY do not want to read here one day of a tragedy with regard to the pregnancies and deliveries of the Duggars. 

I’m sure I am not alone. 

I don't think anyone here wishes them ill will or harm but sometimes I feel guilty for wanting a wake up call to happen (without any real harm happening) that would cause them to re-evaluate. But they HAVE had wake up call moments and choose to ignore them. Michelle and Josie almost died but they still had Jubilee who DID die, Jessa did not learn from almost bleeding out with Spurgeon, Jill took the same course of action with her 2nd delivery etc. I think only the death of a mother would cause them to re think, and even then I'm not sure many would chose to do differently. I often wonder how Josie's boyfriend Kelton feels about births sense his mother died giving birth to his little sister. 

[SassyPants]

I think we should all remember that above all else in many situations, and pregnancy/ child birth being one of those situations, the Duggars do things very differently than most. It appears they do not use the same logic and reasoning or learning from past situations that most of us employee when we make decisions and choices for ourselves. AND, it's frustrating, especially when things go wrong as a PP mentioned, and the Duggars keep on making the same decisions.

IMO, God gave us brains to think, hands and backs to work hard and professionals to aid us along the journey. A religion that just defaults to God, while ignoring all that God created and provided makes zero sense at all.

So are the Duggars seemingly on the dim and lazy side because of their religion? 

[RhythmicSkater]

2 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

I don't think anyone here wishes them ill will or harm but sometimes I feel guilty for wanting a wake up call to happen (without any real harm happening) that would cause them to re-evaluate. But they HAVE had wake up call moments and choose to ignore them. Michelle and Josie almost died but they still had Jubilee who DID die, Jessa did not learn from almost bleeding out with Spurgeon, Jill took the same course of action with her 2nd delivery etc. I think only the death of a mother would cause them to re think, and even then I'm not sure many would chose to do differently. I often wonder how Josie's boyfriend Kelton feels about births sense his mother died giving birth to his little sister. 

I said something about this before and was eviscerated for it, but I'll try again. Idk if anyone's heard of Carolyn Jessop, but she escaped from the FLDS:

"The final pregnancy was life-threatening and required an emergency hysterectomy, during which time, Jessop maintains that, her husband and his family regarded her condition with uninterest. Jessop contends that the resulting freedom from pregnancy helped her escape from her abusive marriage and volatile home situation." (From Wikipedia, but I've read her book and she says the same thing there)

While I don't wish ill on any of the Duggar daughters, pregnancy and children are often used to keep women in cults. I'm not saying that the Duggar fundie-ness is anywhere near as dangerous as the FLDS, and, as I said, I don't wish a life-threatening situation on anyone, in Jessop's case, this situation got her and her kids out of a dangerous cult. I am a bit curious what a similar situation would result in for say Jill or Anna.

 

 

[crazysnark]

1 minute ago, RhythmicSkater said:

I said something about this before and was eviscerated for it, but I'll try again. Idk if anyone's heard of Carolyn Jessop, but she escaped from the FLDS:

"The final pregnancy was life-threatening and required an emergency hysterectomy, during which time, Jessop maintains that, her husband and his family regarded her condition with uninterest. Jessop contends that the resulting freedom from pregnancy helped her escape from her abusive marriage and volatile home situation." (From Wikipedia, but I've read her book and she says the same thing there)

While I don't wish ill on any of the Duggar daughters, pregnancy and children are often used to keep women in cults. I'm not saying that the Duggar fundie-ness is anywhere near as dangerous as the FLDS, and, as I said, I don't wish a life-threatening situation on anyone, in Jessop's case, this situation got her and her kids out of a dangerous cult. I am a bit curious what a similar situation would result in for say Jill or Anna.

 

 

That is interesting. I don't think it would help them leave the cult but it would def lighten the load for them. I can not imagine having to mother 10+ kids while being constantly nursing/pregnant AND trying to look and be perfect all the time. That's a recipe for a laundry room break down. For me, being a sister wife would feel MORE freeing because you have adults to lighten the load and distract your husband to constantly knocking you up. I feel weird saying that but that's just how I feel. If i had cool sister wives and a decent husband I would much rather have that than a Josh or Derick for a husband all alone

[bananabread]

21 minutes ago, crazysnark said:

I often wonder how Josie's boyfriend Kelton feels about births sense his mother died giving birth to his little sister. 

I had no idea about this. I'm so sorry for Kelton's family. Erin, Alyssa, and Whitney all seem to like hospital/birth center births, so I'd imagine all the Bates girls (Josie included) would be likely choose to deliver at a birth center at the very least.

[SassyPants]

And I will throw MD a bone here (Yes, I realize she used her older daughters, particularly Jana, as slave labor), but Michelle does at least look amazing for a person who spent 20+ years pregnant and nursing. Holy varicose veins, hemorrhoids, lose skin and saggy breasts. Not to mention spinal column, bladder and bowels. She is very unusual in that regard. Michelle and KJB are nearly the same age, but they don't look it.

[Drala]

2 hours ago, ElToro said:

This was on the BBC yesterday- shocking stats.

Why do so many women die

US has maternal mortality rates that are rising and are above other countries (such as Iran, Thailand, Vietnam) but the stats are particularly shocking when broken into different ethnicities. While white women have 13 deaths per 100,000 (even high compared to other rich nations), black women have rates of 44 per 100,000. Truly appalling and WTF is going on...?

I do research in the area of social determinants of health.  WTF is going on--in a single word:  Poverty.  In more words:  high contaminant/substandard housing, food insecurity and poor nutritional choices, community/family violence, lack of access to adequate health care, high stress low wage jobs.  We (US citizens) need to have a forthright conversation about the impacts of poverty (income disparity) that doesn't blame the victim, overemphasize the importance of personal responsibility or appeal to throwing money at the problem and getting on with business as usual.     

[justoneoftwo]

One problem is that its hard to find answers that are not throwing money at the problem.  And its hard to say something about needing more than that, without some stupid person thinking you mean cut funding.  Funding is important, but its not all there is and shouldn't be all there is.

[ElToro]

I work in community development and work in an area of a city where there is a 20 year life expectancy difference between the wealthier north and poorer south of the area- a distance of about 5 miles.

It's horrific to me that this wealth and health disparity runs so clearly between different ethnic communities in US society.... and nothing is being done about the maternal mortality rates (or anything), because ... well.... the double whammy of being a PoC and a woman..... It's especially galling when things can be done (evidenced by the falling rates everywhere else). The fact that they are rising in the States is just.... fucked up.

[AtlanticTug]

4 hours ago, crazysnark said:

 To top all of that off when midwife Jill got the the hospital the dr was basically like "um, he's TRANSVERSE". How is she a midwife and can't even feel her own belly and feel he is NOT head down. She needs to stay far away from pregnant women and if/when she gets pregnant again needs to plan a hospital birth from the start. 

I think the story they went with is that he flipped during labor. I found that to be fairly unbelievable for a few reasons. First of all, he was nearly 10 lbs and that would be quite a feat with the space restrictions he was facing at that point. Second, "midwife" Jill would have been able to note the flip. It is actually fairly easy to feel whether the head is facing down and engaged and yet she went to the hospital and was totes surprised that he was transverse.

[JillyO]

2 hours ago, Drala said:

I do research in the area of social determinants of health.  WTF is going on--in a single word:  Poverty.  In more words:  high contaminant/substandard housing, food insecurity and poor nutritional choices, community/family violence, lack of access to adequate health care, high stress low wage jobs.  We (US citizens) need to have a forthright conversation about the impacts of poverty (income disparity) that doesn't blame the victim, overemphasize the importance of personal responsibility or appeal to throwing money at the problem and getting on with business as usual.     

Excellent arguments. Mass incarceration and the horrible state of worker protection laws are also likely contributing factors.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

19 hours ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Agreed. I don't know anyone who has given birth at home, but I do know of one case of medical neglect in a hospital, which lead to the baby having severe oxygen deprivation at birth (and that hospital was rightfully sued). But what scares me is oxygen deprivation can easily happen at home. Especially if you use a shitty lay midwife who isn't trained to properly assess risk, and who knows if they could detect something like the cord being wrapped around the baby's beck and how to deal with it. 

I know both, a woman who gave birth at home risking her babies life and her midwifes career, by not telling her the baby had gone back to its breach position after being turned the day prior. But I also know a woman whose baby died due to oxygen deprivation, it wasn't doctor error, her RN wasn't monitoring her properly during her labor and by the time the doc came to check her again 2 hours later the babies heart rate was bottoming out, they did a crash (where dr's and nurses are literally running mom & baby on the bed to the OR to get that baby out NOW!) C/section, but it was too late, the damage was already done an she was brain dead by the time they got her out.  

[Georgiana]

What I worry about with Jill is that her brain is SO steeped in kool-aid that she isn't evaluating this situation correctly.  

Izzy's birth SHOULD have been a wake up call. But I feel like Jill interpreted it as "God brought me though that, so He'll bring me through it again" and did the EXACT SAME THING with Sam.  

Sam seemed to have a rougher go.  But even though THAT should be a wake up call, I feel Jill will interpret it as "God brought me through it AGAIN!  He is testing my faith, but he will always bring me through!" and will do the EXACT SAME THING with the next child.  

Jill doesn't know how to critically examine situations to correct/change behavior to prevent certain outcomes.  That's a skill that was NEVER taught at Duggar Academy.  She's going to keep on doing the SAME THING and just praying she gets lucky until an authority figure (like Derick or JB/Michelle) step in.  She's like a young child in this area, and she can thank her parents for that.  

And I just hope that someone does step in.  Before her luck runs out.  

[nausicaa]

3 hours ago, SassyPants said:

And I will throw MD a bone here (Yes, I realize she used her older daughters, particularly Jana, as slave labor), but Michelle does at least look amazing for a person who spent 20+ years pregnant and nursing. Holy varicose veins, hemorrhoids, lose skin and saggy breasts. Not to mention spinal column, bladder and bowels. She is very unusual in that regard. Michelle and KJB are nearly the same age, but they don't look it.

I actually think Kelly Jo looks pretty great as well. Which to me underlines the fact that these two women are not only outliers in terms of their fertility, but in their ability to maintain healthy pregnancies and recover quickly and fully from delivery.

Nineteen pregnancies and deliveries would take far more of a toll on the bodies of the vast majority of women. I hope their daughters all realize this and don't feel as if they aren't measuring up.

[Seculardaisy]

I can’t knock Jill for the castor oil. I delivered my last two children at a hospital in their alternative birth center unit. My certified nurse midwives had me come in for monitoring when I was just shy of 42 weeks with one of those births and had me use (with my consent obviously) a combination of castor oil and breast pump stimulation to go into labor. They monitored me and my baby the whole way through and it successfully put me into labor with no complications. I was trying to avoid a medical induction (I had a bad experience with my first birth) and I was happy with the results.

I’m not going to say it’s the right choice for everyone but I trusted the advice and knowledge of my CNMs and it was a truly beautiful birth which was something I needed because my previous child was born in a car and it was a super stressful situation for me.

Please don’t mistake this for medical advice or a recommendation. I’m not dishing out medical advice. And antecdotal evidence isn’t the way to make an arguiment for a decision like that. I’m just saying I can’t judge Jill for that choice because I made it too and I am still very glad that I did. It was a very healing birth for me and I am forever grateful for it. Although obviously the difference between us was proper monitoring, certified nurse midwives, and a hospital ABC birth.

[Georgiana]

57 minutes ago, nausicaa said:

I actually think Kelly Jo looks pretty great as well. Which to me underlines the fact that these two women are not only outliers in terms of their fertility, but in their ability to maintain healthy pregnancies and recover quickly and fully from delivery.

Nineteen pregnancies and deliveries would take far more of a toll on the bodies of the vast majority of women. I hope their daughters all realize this and don't feel as if they aren't measuring up.

I've posted about this in another thread, but I don't think that Michelle especially (and more than likely not Kelly Jo either) are going to be truly free from pregnancy related issues.  COSMETICALLY they look good, but Michelle appears to be shrinking in a way that suggests she may have underlying skeletal/bone density issues, and her insistence on orthopedic footwear may indicate serious lower extremity problems. 

I think eventually the hens will come home to roost, and the movement may have to deal with the long term, serious, negative effects of continual pregnancies.  Even the healthiest pregnancy is rough on a woman's body, and in cases like MD and KJB, these women NEVER gave themselves time to recover until menopause, which may have been too late.  And during much of that time, they ate an incredibly poor diet, likely increasing the long term impact on their own bodies.

To paraphrase one of my college professors discussing noble women in the middle ages: "If the births didn't kill you, then eventually the cost of continual pregnancies would."  Frankly, I'd take the cosmetic issues.  Far as I know, it's pretty rare for people to die or have their lifespan shortened by saggy boobs.  

[nolongerIFBx]

On 11/19/2017 at 12:42 PM, clueliss said:

I have a cold and don’t wish to bark like a trained seal durin worship so used the live stream of church service this morning.  Not quite the same but it did the trick.  At least she’s not hauling sick kids to church.

Yep. In my IFBx days we were told "Unless you're dead or in the hospital, you'd better be in church every time the doors are open." My younger sibs went to church with chicken pox (which they also caught there).