Dillards 45: The Grift Goes On

[curlykate]

3 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

It is a cherry picker truck

Haha. I didn’t get it either!  Around here, those aren’t used for cherry picking, they’re lifts for construction. 

[jacduggar]

Where did these Duggar girls get this “home birth, medication free, no matter the risks” attitude from? Michelle gets only one little piece of praise from me and it’s in regards to this; her priority was always delivering her babies safely. She sought out legitimate experts to help her and her babies no matter what and was the first to advocate for herself/her babies when things started to go south. Why would her kids endanger the lives of their own children just to give birth at home? Why wouldn’t Michelle say something? 

[zygote373]

@jacduggar I think they are getting it from the general trend in the country right now for more "natural" births. Hospitals don't always treat women the best, and there has been a backlash from women who want more control over the experience. But as we see here, that can be dangerous when the backlash goes too far away from real medical advice. There are safe ways to have homebirths attended by midwives, and these aren't those.

However, it doesn't seem to be pervasive throughout the whole family. Jana and Jinger both seem eager to deliver at the hospital with a doctor for their hypothetical future babies. I guess the more hippie Duggars just happened to give birth first.

For all we know, Michelle has been encouraging them to use doctors/hospitals. Didn't she and Jim Bob express skepticism when Josh and Anna decided last minute to have Mack at home?

[singsingsing]

6 minutes ago, jacduggar said:

Where did these Duggar girls get this “home birth, medication free, no matter the risks” attitude from? Michelle gets only one little piece of praise from me and it’s in regards to this; her priority was always delivering her babies safely. She sought out legitimate experts to help her and her babies no matter what and was the first to advocate for herself/her babies when things started to go south. Why would her kids endanger the lives of their own children just to give birth at home? Why wouldn’t Michelle say something? 

Because it's the trendy thing to do. It's 'all natural', it's 'back to the way God intended', it eliminates sinful worldly doctors, hospitals with scary worldly interventions, and the possibility of strange men seeing your nether regions. Most importantly, it's (theoretically) a lot cheaper. 

I'm not sure what Michelle has to do with it. She obviously supports her daughters during their home births, but i'm not sure she's ever expressed her opinion on what the best birthing option is. She doesn't control her adult daughters, and for all we know she's encouraging them to give birth in a hospital and they're shrugging her off.

[jacduggar]

7 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Because it's the trendy thing to do. It's 'all natural', it's 'back to the way God intended', it eliminates sinful worldly doctors, hospitals with scary worldly interventions, and the possibility of strange men seeing your nether regions. Most importantly, it's (theoretically) a lot cheaper. 

I'm not sure what Michelle has to do with it. She obviously supports her daughters during their home births, but i'm not sure she's ever expressed her opinion on what the best birthing option is. She doesn't control her adult daughters, and for all we know she's encouraging them to give birth in a hospital and they're shrugging her off.

I mention Michelle because the girls have had tons of exposure to midwife attended hospital births through her, not that it’s her job to control her adult daughters. I think it’s fair to say that they’d have knowledge about hospital attended births with midwives and other birthing options since their mom has had about 13 of them. Playing ignorant hippie is fine but I’m not blaming it on their upbringing. 

[singsingsing]

2 minutes ago, jacduggar said:

I mention Michelle because the girls have had tons of exposure to midwife attended hospital births through her, not that it’s her job to control her adult daughters. I think it’s fair to say that they’d have knowledge about hospital attended births with midwives and other birthing options since their mom has had about 13 of them. Playing ignorant hippie is fine but I’m not blaming it on their upbringing. 

People regularly choose to do things differently than their parents (and Michelle did have at least one home birth, by the way). The only daughters who have given birth so far are Jill and Jessa. Jill attempted a home birth the first time around, and wound up with a C-section in hospital. We don't know what happened the second time around besides the fact that it ended in another C-section. Jessa has had two home births. I don't believe Joy has said what she's planning to do when the time comes for her to give birth. Jinger seems to be looking at a hospital birth if she has a baby, and Jana has also expressed the desire to give birth in a birthing centre or a hospital setting. Jessa at least has actively encouraged her other sisters to give birth in a hospital if that's what they want. So I don't think any of them are exactly playing 'ignorant hippie' or lacking in knowledge of their options.

[Imagine20]

Did Jill and Jessa mention homebirths before Anna started doing them? Could it also be an unspoken competition on who has the most pious birth? I don't think any woman should be judged on her birthing choice, so long as she's doing whatever method with informed consent and wants the best for her child. One of those is whether birthing at home is safe. Most women get prenatal checks and see some sort of actual medical professional during pregnancy. 

I seems like safety just isn't that high of a priority for these women. I know in our early 20's we all feel invincible, but you can only wing it on a hope and prayer for so long before reality catches up.

[jacduggar]

8 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

People regularly choose to do things differently than their parents (and Michelle did have at least one home birth, by the way). The only daughters who have given birth so far are Jill and Jessa. Jill attempted a home birth the first time around, and wound up with a C-section in hospital. We don't know what happened the second time around besides the fact that it ended in another C-section. Jessa has had two home births. I don't believe Joy has said what she's planning to do when the time comes for her to give birth. Jinger seems to be looking at a hospital birth if she has a baby, and Jana has also expressed the desire to give birth in a birthing centre or a hospital setting. Jessa at least has actively encouraged her other sisters to give birth in a hospital if that's what they want. So I don't think any of them are exactly playing 'ignorant hippie' or lacking in knowledge of their options.

I don’t care how old my kids are, if they wanted to give birth with untrained lay midwives I would have an issue with it. It’s beyond choosing a different option than me. It’s about the safety of my children and grandchildren, which has been clearly shown by both Jessa and Jill’s birth complications. Obviously Michelle can’t make decisions for her kids but I still can’t imagine why the kids didn’t at least choose one legitimate professional to attend their births. 

 

What im trying to get out is that all kinds of safe, well informed birthing options were modeled for them but somewhere along the line they bucked them. I know lay midwives are legal in Arkansas but it’s legal where I’m at to let a 5 year old ride in the front seat without a car seat. That doesn’t mean you ignore all other safety and professional recommendations just because you can. 

[singsingsing]

23 minutes ago, jacduggar said:

What im trying to get out is that all kinds of safe, well informed birthing options were modeled for them but somewhere along the line they bucked them. I know lay midwives are legal in Arkansas but it’s legal where I’m at to let a 5 year old ride in the front seat without a car seat. That doesn’t mean you ignore all other safety and professional recommendations just because you can. 

And yet some people do. Jill and Jessa's birthing choices seem foolish and risky to me, but they chose them. Michelle didn't, so far as I know, choose for them. I don't know all of the reasons they decided to go with home births attended by unqualified midwives. Having different behaviour modeled to them doesn't mean much. Neither of my parents ever smoked, and yet my sister grew up to be a smoker. Why? I have absolutely no idea. People make decisions that seem nonsensical to us, no matter what examples might've been set for them.

[Knight of Ni]

Did Jill ever say that she wasn’t receiving prenatal care or was it inferred from her actions and other quotes? I don’t watch the show or really keep up with them on social media. Im asking because it seems a shockingly obtuse thing to say PR wise. Then again the Dillard’s don’t seem to be very PR savvy at all these days. Maybe she expected to be congratulated. 

[TakingBibleClasses]

16 hours ago, Jinder Roles said:

I think this was sarcasm? 

Ugh, unfortunately not. Song of Songs is actually erotic poetry. Lately (like, in the last 5-10 years) a bunch of "cool" non-denom/evangelical pastors have discovered the fact that the Bible contains erotic poetry and started preaching "edgy" sermons about how married people need to have lots of sex in all kinds of ways (see: the disgraced Mark Driscoll). These sermons piss me off, for multiple reasons. As a single evangelical lady, I'm like, "Okay, great, so this sermon excludes me entirely. And thanks for rubbing in my face the fact that I'm not having sex, while you're talking about how hot it is for the married people." They're super triumphalistic about how great sex is when you do it the  *right* way, so all the holy married people get to pat themselves on the back while making sex jokes in church.

[onekidanddone]

1 hour ago, curlykate said:

Haha. I didn’t get it either!  Around here, those aren’t used for cherry picking, they’re lifts for construction. 

I don't think they are used for cherry picking around here either.  I think that one is a lineman bucket truck, but it came up when I googled 'cherry picker'. 

[NakedKnees]

I don't think they even really grow cherries in particular where I'm from (Southern California), but we definitely used the term "cherry picker" to describe that type of construction lift. I never thought it was meant literally.

ETA: just trying to say that maybe it's a regional figure of speech.

[Drala]

6 minutes ago, TakingBibleClasses said:

Ugh, unfortunately not. Song of Songs is actually erotic poetry. Lately (like, in the last 5-10 years) a bunch of "cool" non-denom/evangelical pastors have discovered the fact that the Bible contains erotic poetry and started preaching "edgy" sermons about how married people need to have lots of sex in all kinds of ways (see: the disgraced Mark Driscoll). These sermons piss me off, for multiple reasons. As a single evangelical lady, I'm like, "Okay, great, so this sermon excludes me entirely. And thanks for rubbing in my face the fact that I'm not having sex, while you're talking about how hot it is for the married people." They're super triumphalistic about how great sex is when you do it the  *right* way, so all the holy married people get to pat themselves on the back while making sex jokes in church.

It's ironic to me that this is a topic a church's leadership would take on right now, given the national conversation around sexual harassment.  Preaching Song of Songs as a model for marriage can always be used to reinforce patriarchy, whereas discussing harassment in light of the gospel is going to challenge patriarchy.  I feel the same dismay over D'Wreck going after transgender kids when there is so much evil that goes on with the sexual exploitation of children.  By beating the "transgender is ungodly" drum, D'Wreck upholds patriarchy.  Taking on the sexual exploitation of children vis-a-vis the gospel requires a challenge to patriarchy.  It also means cleaning house.        

[SassyPants]

Where are all these young, hipsters having home births? I have 8 great nieces and nephews and 1 GD all under the age of 4. The vast majority live in CA and most are highly educated. 1 niece is even a DO (MD). Not a one of them entertained the idea of having a home birth- zero, zip, nada. In fact, I was a nurse for 35 years in CALIFORNIA, and I never have known anyone who has given birth at home.

 

[zygote373]

@SassyPants I pulled up this article after a quick google, and it sums up most of what I've heard. That women are made to give birth and their bodies should be trusted, not medicalized. I know at least one person who has had home births with both of her daughters, and several others who are training to be doulas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/magazine/ina-may-gaskin-and-the-battle-for-at-home-births.html

I don't necessarily have a problem with the concept, as long as the home births are attended by competent health professionals who know when intervention becomes necessary and a backup plan is in place.

EDIT: Reading the article more closely, and this sure explains a lot....

Quote

In 1982 Gaskin and other midwives created an organization, called Midwives Alliance of North America (MANA). Later, some members helped found the North American Registry of Midwives, which credentials midwives who haven’t necessarily been trained in medical institutions and aren’t beholden to their priorities. The registry, whose accreditation office is in a trailer on the Farm, grants an alternative certification and title — certified professional midwife (C.P.M.) — in the 27 states where the practice is legal.

 

[VelociRapture]

57 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

Did Jill ever say that she wasn’t receiving prenatal care or was it inferred from her actions and other quotes? I don’t watch the show or really keep up with them on social media. Im asking because it seems a shockingly obtuse thing to say PR wise. Then again the Dillard’s don’t seem to be very PR savvy at all these days. Maybe she expected to be congratulated. 

She was shown seeing a Midwife during her pregnancy with Izzy. I think it was Debbie Query, but I could be wrong. It’s possible that was just for the show, but it’s also possible that she did indeed have some sort of prenatal care. I don’t follow the show closely enough to know for sure. 

1 minute ago, zygote373 said:

@SassyPants I pulled up this article after a quick google, and it sums up most of what I've heard. That women are made to give birth and their bodies should be trusted, not medicalized. I know at least one person who has had home births with both of her daughters, and several others who are training to be doulas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/magazine/ina-may-gaskin-and-the-battle-for-at-home-births.html

I don't necessarily have a problem with the concept, as long as the home births are attended by competent health professionals who know when intervention becomes necessary and a backup plan is in place.

I don’t think I know anyone who has had a homebirth, but I agree. As long as a woman is making a fully informed choice, is working with a legitimate professional, and she has a very good backup plan then I don’t see an issue. I definitely wouldn’t make that choice for myself - especially given my birth history - but to each their own. 

[SassyPants]

9 minutes ago, zygote373 said:

@SassyPants I pulled up this article after a quick google, and it sums up most of what I've heard. That women are made to give birth and their bodies should be trusted, not medicalized. I know at least one person who has had home births with both of her daughters, and several others who are training to be doulas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/27/magazine/ina-may-gaskin-and-the-battle-for-at-home-births.html

I don't necessarily have a problem with the concept, as long as the home births are attended by competent health professionals who know when intervention becomes necessary and a backup plan is in place.

I should have also made the caveat that I don't care what people do as long as they are getting adequate PN care (which maybe Jill did the first time around, but I don't think we have any concrete proof that Jessa has at all, or that Jill did on this second go around), and that they have a good what if/back up plan.

[AtlanticTug]

The Duggar girls who have given birth so far have all been very young (much younger than the average American) and with that comes a certain sense of invincibility. To the best of our knowledge they have also all had no trouble getting pregnant or staying pregnant and have had very routine and easy/uncomplicated pregnancies. Not a single one of them had multiples, or developed pre-eclampsia or HELLP or insulin-dependent gestational diabetes or had placental insufficiency, etc. Anna had 5 routine home births. Jessa had the hemorrhage issue the first time but I bet you that because Henry's birth went so well she thinks that was a "one time" thing. Jill is the only one who has really struggled with very difficult and complicated deliveries and we still don't know what happened with Samuel to keep him in the hospital longer than usual.

I think with Michelle, it was a different time, hospital births were absolutely the norm. Recall that she also had twins almost immediately and an early c-section and that probably influenced her decision to go down the medical route as well.

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, AtlanticTug said:

The Duggar girls who have given birth so far have all been very young (much younger than the average American) and with that comes a certain sense of invincibility. To the best of our knowledge they have also all had no trouble getting pregnant or staying pregnant and have had very routine and easy/uncomplicated pregnancies. Not a single one of them had multiples, or developed pre-eclampsia or HELLP or insulin-dependent gestational diabetes or had placental insufficiency, etc. Anna had 5 routine home births. Jessa had the hemorrhage issue the first time but I bet you that because Henry's birth went so well she thinks that was a "one time" thing. Jill is the only one who has really struggled with very difficult and complicated deliveries and we still don't know what happened with Samuel to keep him in the hospital longer than usual.

I think with Michelle, it was a different time, hospital births were absolutely the norm. Recall that she also had twins almost immediately and an early c-section and that probably influenced her decision to go down the medical route as well.

I'm not sure we know if they are getting screened for GD or PE/HELLP. With the sizes of the majority of these babies, I would not be surprised if untreated GD is a contributing factor.

I think they choose home births  primarily because they see them as being less expensive.

[NakedKnees]

I'm in my twenties and I know approximately 20-30 peers who have given birth in the past 5 years or so (I'm including USA and Chile in this). I know two of them had successful planned homebirths, one unplanned and emergency transfer, one attempted and transferred (no emergency, just knew their limits), and one who had an unmedicated hospital VBAC and would have probably attempted homebirth if it was reasonable.

My friends do sort of err on the "hippie" side, but even then homebirth seems rare. And reckless homebirth considerably rarer. I don't think any of my friends listed above made irresponsible choices.

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, NakedKnees said:

I'm in my twenties and I know approximately 20-30 peers who have given birth in the past 5 years or so (I'm including USA and Chile in this). I know two of them had successful planned homebirths, one unplanned and emergency transfer, one attempted and transferred (no emergency, just knew their limits), and one who had an unmedicated hospital VBAC and would have probably attempted homebirth if it was reasonable.

My friends do sort of err on the "hippie" side, but even then homebirth seems rare. And reckless homebirth considerably rarer. I don't think any of my friends listed above made irresponsible choices.

Thank you. Reckless home birth- IMO, that is what the Duggars engage in. Where are the professionals in the Duggar ladies' care plans? That is what is missing. You can't just have a lay person come and catch your baby and expect good outcomes-  Prenatal care and screening is so important.

[AtlanticTug]

6 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I'm not sure we know if they are getting screened for GD or PE/HELLP. With the sizes of the majority of these babies, I would not be surprised if untreated GD is a contributing factor.

I think they choose home births  primarily because they see them as being less expensive.

I have said many times (as an insulin-dependent diabetic) that I think GD was a very distinct possibility.

PE/HELLP you don't really need screening for in the sense that as it goes on you will feel very, very ill. There is just no evidence of any of them having that as an issue and we've seen them up and about pretty much up to the day of birth + videos of the births and there was no indication of those issues surfacing.

[justoneoftwo]

I'm on of the first of my friends to give births, and I was super pro hospital (I may chose to be unmedicated in the hospital for a second).  I only have 1 friend who wants to give birth at home.  In general she doesn't trust authorities much and is inclined to feel pressured into things.  I think those issues increase the desire to give birth at home, where she feels more in control.  Perhaps the Duggar daughters have similar issues.  They don't like authority that isn't the Bible, and medical doctors would be included.  They are not used to having the ability to say no to things, so it would be harder to stand up to a doctor.  

I worry about home births, just because while the vast majority of the time things are fine, if they aren't they are so not fine.  I'm a big fan of doctors though.  Perhaps I over trust them.  

[AtlanticTug]

Just now, AtlanticTug said:

I have said many times (as an insulin-dependent diabetic) that I think GD was a very distinct possibility.

PE/HELLP you don't really need screening for in the sense that as it goes on you will feel very, very ill (yes, everybody should be screened, I just mean that they'd know it if they had it). There is just no evidence of any of them having that as an issue and we've seen them up and about pretty much up to the day of birth + videos of the births and there was no indication of those issues surfacing.