Dillards 45: The Grift Goes On

[Rebelwife]

4 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

She was shown seeing a Midwife during her pregnancy with Izzy. I think it was Debbie Query, but I could be wrong. It’s possible that was just for the show, but it’s also possible that she did indeed have some sort of prenatal care. I don’t follow the show closely enough to know for sure. 

I don’t think I know anyone who has had a homebirth, but I agree. As long as a woman is making a fully informed choice, is working with a legitimate professional, and she has a very good backup plan then I don’t see an issue. I definitely wouldn’t make that choice for myself - especially given my birth history - but to each their own. 

I think some of it (knowing people who have had home births) is the community you're in.  I had one hospital birth and one home birth with an extremely competent, qualified midwife in Florida.  It's not the norm in my circle, so most of my friends probably only know one person who has had one - me.   On the other hand, I know a decent number of people who have had them, because I have contacts through my midwife.

**In my case, I chose a home birth for my second baby because I had an easy pregnancy and birth with my first but hated being in the hospital where all of the care, more after the birth than during, felt very intrusive.  At any point in the pregnancy that things weren't looking perfectly normal, though, my midwife would have transferred my care.

[JDuggs]

4 hours ago, AtlanticTug said:

Anna had 5 routine home births. 

I remember Mack and Michael were homebirths, but I think Marcus was born at a birthing center. Do we actually know where Meredith and Mason were born?

[HarryPotterFan]

3 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

To be fair, things can go very wrong during hospital births as well. Even with the best Doctors. 

Agreed. I don't know anyone who has given birth at home, but I do know of one case of medical neglect in a hospital, which lead to the baby having severe oxygen deprivation at birth (and that hospital was rightfully sued). But what scares me is oxygen deprivation can easily happen at home. Especially if you use a shitty lay midwife who isn't trained to properly assess risk, and who knows if they could detect something like the cord being wrapped around the baby's beck and how to deal with it. 

ETA: This is something I've thought about with Jill and Jessa because of their use of untrained midwives, I'd trust a real trained midwife to detect problems.

2 hours ago, karen77 said:

BUt this is hard to quantify. The hospitals end up with ALL the high risk births, while the home births are the low risk births (unless someone is dumb and won't go to the hospital even with the recommendation that they are high risk), so you aren't comparing apples to apples.

Exactly. There was some local hospital ranking list, one thing that affected the score were patient deaths. So a small hospital that takes zero high risk patients (such as ones who just had a heart attack) got ranked higher than a hospital that does treat those patients. 

[luxfilia]

2 hours ago, zygote373 said:

Have you had a chance to read the NYT article I posted above? I agree with much of what you said, but Ina May Gaskin may not be the best spokesperson for it. She doesn't have any formal education in childbirth as far as I can tell, and it's the organization associated with her farm that administers the test Jill took to become "certified". Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Well, I grew up right outside "The Farm," and there are many types of people associated with it. I wouldn't use their midwives, because they aren't CNMs. However, Ina May's book is very insightful in that it encompasses her entire experience, including working with many doctors around the world. She is not anti-hospital at all, but has so much experience with different types of births and cites some really interesting studies that i find the book very interesting and relevant. Of course I believe one should explore many and varied sources on the topic, but I still say her book is worth reading. Also, the "Gaskin Maneuver" that doctors use today was named after her. Maybe you should try her book and see what you think. One reason I love it is that she provides sources that you can explore in your own time.

I threw out "The Business of Being Born" because I think it's an interesting opinion/intro to the other side, and an easy watch. Of course you want to take it all with several grains of salt. But where I grew up, the hospital was terrible and still is, but it's the ONLY option for women there who aren't choosing home birth (or going to The Farm). And some things in that film that seem like things from the 1950s actually DO still go on today, but in rural, small town areas like the one I grew up in.

But I also said I would never try to convince anyone else that home birth is safe. That isn't my point. My point is that all home births are not Duggar births, and while that may seem obvious, it's not the tone usually portrayed here. I am just SO grateful to now live in a big city where I do have choices (birth clinics, hospitals with more relaxing atmospheres for low-risk births, multiple doctors/midwives to choose from, etc.)!

Also, since some people are throwing out anecdotes about people they've known who had scary home births, my experience with them is much more positive. I know lots of people who have had successful home births. But they also had proper prenatal testing and care.

[VelociRapture]

7 minutes ago, HarryPotterFan said:

Agreed. I don't know anyone who has given birth at home, but I do know of one case of medical neglect in a hospital, which lead to the baby having severe oxygen deprivation at birth (and that hospital was rightfully sued). But what scares me is oxygen deprivation can easily happen at home. Especially if you use a shitty lay midwife who isn't trained to properly assess risk, and who knows if they could detect something like the cord being wrapped around the baby's beck and how to deal with it. 

ETA: This is something I've thought about with Jill and Jessa because of their use of untrained midwives, I'd trust a real trained midwife to detect problems.

Exactly. There was some local hospital ranking list, one thing that affected the score were patient deaths. So a small hospital that takes zero high risk patients (such as ones who just had a heart attack) got ranked higher than a hospital that does treat those patients. 

That actually happened during my daughter’s birth. My baby being strangled by the cord was the biggest fear I had during the second half of my pregnancy. The Doctor was so calm about it and had the cord cut and unwrapped so quickly that I didn’t have time to really freak out. 

14 minutes ago, Rebelwife said:

I think some of it (knowing people who have had home births) is the community you're in.  I had one hospital birth and one home birth with an extremely competent, qualified midwife in Florida.  It's not the norm in my circle, so most of my friends probably only know one person who has had one - me.   On the other hand, I know a decent number of people who have had them, because I have contacts through my midwife.

**In my case, I chose a home birth for my second baby because I had an easy pregnancy and birth with my first but hated being in the hospital where all of the care, more after the birth than during, felt very intrusive.  At any point in the pregnancy that things weren't looking perfectly normal, though, my midwife would have transferred my care.

Oh I definitely agree with you on that. It seems the norm here is definitely hospital births - part of that could be that we have a lot of great hospitals and we’re a small state, so people here likely have a ton more options than a woman in a bigger state with towns more spread out might have. 

It sounds like you chose well with your provider. I’m glad you had such a nice experience. 

@luxfiliaJust want to point out, the article she linked to states that the Gaskin Manuever was named for Ina May. It’s a very interesting article written by a pregnant woman who visited and observed at the Farm. She ultimately chose a different type of birth that felt best for her, but I think she did a decent job at trying to stay objective about everything. If you haven’t looked at it yet then I recommend you do. 

[luxfilia]

44 minutes ago, JillyO said:

Okay, I WANT to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you have done proper research. But why in the world would you use Ina May Gaskin and "The Business of Being Born" as your sources? These are highly problematic!

This blog does an excellent job of pointing out some of the ways in which "The Business of Being Born" is incredibly misleading and biased: http://whatifsandfears.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-business-of-being-misled.html.

It is not an unbiased documentary at all. It is full of misleading information and unfounded claims. I strongly suggest you read the blog post if you truly care about this issue.

See, some of the points made on that blog post are things that I understood from the get-go. But I was already familiar with what a "midwife" really is in other countries, and that they are associated with hospitals in most cases. I've also stated that I would only use a CNM, so when they use the term "midwife," I don't take them all as having the same qualifications. I guess it helped that I was already informed before watching it, and watched it with skepticism. I always question statistics, recognizing they are easily manipulated. I could go on, but you're right; I shouldn't mention that documentary in relation to this issue, as I can see how it confuses the issue and triggers a lot of anger in people. I haven't seen it in years; I simply remembered that there were a lot of moments that gave a voice to something I and another women I know had experienced. The lack of GOOD hospital care is still an issue in many parts of this country, and i was glad that it pointed that out. But I can see how come people unlike myself would be scared away from actually necessary medical interventions or come away misinformed from watching it.

3 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

(Clipped)

@luxfiliaJust want to point out, the article she linked to states that the Gaskin Manuever was named for Ina May. It’s a very interesting article written by a pregnant woman who visited and observed at the Farm. She ultimately chose a different type of birth that felt best for her, but I think she did a decent job at trying to stay objective about everything. If you haven’t looked at it yet then I recommend you do. 

I've read it before. I'm not pro-farm birth, though, just pro-Ina May in general.

[Denim Jumper]

4 hours ago, luxfilia said:

Yes, but I'm speaking about more specific data than this. Of course you have to consider the differences. My point is that every time this topic comes up, some people speak about home births as if they are innately more risky or a stupid choice, but haven't done much research on their own. I'm just trying to speak for those who realize that choosing home birth does not mean ignorance or Duggar-stupidity.

You'll find that many of us who react negatively toward himebirth have had the experience of just how wrong birth can go, even after a textbook, uneventful pregnancy. Birth can be very unpredictable, and if the shit hits the fan, the last place you want to be is "10 minutes away" from the nearest hospital. 

[onekidanddone]

1 hour ago, JDuggs said:

I remember Mack and Michael were homebirths, but I think Marcus was born at a birthing center. Do we actually know where Meredith and Mason were born?

They were born in Grandma Mary's old house. Same place Josh took a nap while Anna was in labor.

[SassyPants]

39 minutes ago, Denim Jumper said:

You'll find that many of us who react negatively toward himebirth have had the experience of just how wrong birth can go, even after a textbook, uneventful pregnancy. Birth can be very unpredictable, and if the shit hits the fan, the last place you want to be is "10 minutes away" from the nearest hospital. 

I worked in the Nicu for 35 years- we'd get the occasional baby from a home birth gone bad- sad, every darn one of them. Brain death can begin to happen within 5 minutes. A moment or 2 of hesitation and time factored in for a transport or waiting for EMS, and it's too late.

Think of Jill being the person in charge of your delivery and tasked with making those very critical and timely decisions. How many Jills are delivery babies outside of a medical center?

 

[NotQuiteMotY]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

That actually happened during my daughter’s birth. My baby being strangled by the cord was the biggest fear I had during the second half of my pregnancy. The Doctor was so calm about it and had the cord cut and unwrapped so quickly that I didn’t have time to really freak out. 

That is scary. We had it with my son; the doctor had me stop pushing so she could ease the cord off over his head. Of course, they suspected it might be an issue, so the doctor knew about the chance and was prepared because of the prenatal tests they kept running, which is one very strong argument for adequate prenatal care.

I can't imagine dealing with that when you've got a poorly-trained midwife and you're in your home, away from any necessary measures that might be needed, let alone by yourself, especially if you don't know that it's a risk. That's my main argument against the Duggers' method of having babies: with the exception of Anna, we have no idea if they've had adequate prenatal care, and they appear to not be using CNMs in their home births. It's especially bad with them doing it for the first time, when they have no idea if they're actually capable of vaginal birth.

[MarblesMom]

11 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I won't even use the names Jill and Derick. I'll call this hypothetical couple Lil and Eric (har har).

I immediately thought of the Golden Girls episode when Stan and Dorothy were called "Dan and Morothy" to protect their identities.   

[JordynDarby5]

1 hour ago, Denim Jumper said:

You'll find that many of us who react negatively toward himebirth have had the experience of just how wrong birth can go, even after a textbook, uneventful pregnancy. Birth can be very unpredictable, and if the shit hits the fan, the last place you want to be is "10 minutes away" from the nearest hospital. 

That is the reason I'd never do a home birth. I know births that have gone very wrong. The fear of it all going wrong when your at home and have to get to the hospital. When things go bad every second counts. Both of my mother's deliveries when wrong. I was a C-section, and my brother ended up in NICU for months. Both were cases that a home birth would have been disaster. Because we were in the hospital the doctors and nurses were able to get me out as quickly as possible. They were able to rush my brother NICU. Every time someone talks about home birth no matter how safe it sounds I do think immediately of my mother's case, of my brother and myself.  It can still go wrong in a hospital. But there's other doctors and nurses. There's the NICU. Its really scary how fast things can go wrong.   

[VelociRapture]

4 minutes ago, NotQuiteMotY said:

That is scary. We had it with my son; the doctor had me stop pushing so she could ease the cord off over his head. Of course, they suspected it might be an issue, so the doctor knew about the chance and was prepared because of the prenatal tests they kept running, which is one very strong argument for adequate prenatal care.

I can't imagine dealing with that when you've got a poorly-trained midwife and you're in your home, away from any necessary measures that might be needed, let alone by yourself, especially if you don't know that it's a risk. That's my main argument against the Duggers' method of having babies: with the exception of Anna, we have no idea if they've had adequate prenatal care, and they appear to not be using CNMs in their home births. It's especially bad with them doing it for the first time, when they have no idea if they're actually capable of vaginal birth.

Looking back it was scary, especially because we were already trying to cope with the fact that it was an unexpected premature birth and a guaranteed NICU stay. My Doctor had me stop pushing as she cut the cord and unwrapped it - she explained exactly what she was doing and why as she was doing it as she was taking care of the issue, which I really appreciated. I also appreciate not knowing how tight it was or was not wrapped. I’m guessing it was likely pretty tight if she had to cut it without bothering to try to unwrap it first. 

I give my Doctor, Nurses, and husband so much credit though. From the second I was admitted they were all so calm and reassuring that it helped me stay calm (I do think Ina May has a bit of a good point about that.) I figured if the professionals weren’t freaked out then I shouldn’t be either. The Nurses actually had so much fun joking around with me that they asked me to come have another baby soon. 

[Rachel333]

The case I mentioned where the baby ended up with severe brain damage was a result of the baby being strangled with the cord. The parents themselves say they deeply regret choosing a home birth because those few minutes it took for the ambulance to come and get them to the hospital made all the difference. (In other other case the woman started hemorrhaging and bled out in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. It was pretty shocking to hear that a young healthy woman died in childbirth.)

I've known a lot of people who had home births and in most of those cases everything went fine, but it's the times when things go wrong that are so scary. I'm not saying no one should ever have a home birth, but after what I've seen it would scare me if someone I was close to went that route.

[SapphireSlytherin]

17 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

My Doctor had me stop pushing as she cut the cord and unwrapped it - she explained exactly what she was doing and why as she was doing it as she was taking care of the issue, which I really appreciated. I also appreciate not knowing how tight it was or was not wrapped. I’m guessing it was likely pretty tight if she had to cut it without bothering to try to unwrap it first.

Same thing happened to me with GryffindorDisappointment. It was terrifying. And she's fine. 

 

 

16 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

It was pretty shocking to hear that a young healthy woman died in childbirth.

Sadly, I know three young, healthy women who died in childbirth. It still happens, and it's not all that uncommon.  

[Rachel333]

2 minutes ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Sadly, I know three young, healthy women who died in childbirth. It still happens, and it's not all that uncommon.  

Unfortunately true.  Birth is still the most dangerous experience most Western women will go through.

[MarblesMom]

1 hour ago, Rachel333 said:

Birth is still the most dangerous experience most Western women will go through.

My late sister, who worked in L&D for many, many years described women giving birth as "having one foot on a banana peel and the other on the grave."

[justmy2cents]

4 hours ago, JDuggs said:

I remember Mack and Michael were homebirths, but I think Marcus was born at a birthing center. Do we actually know where Meredith and Mason were born?

 

3 hours ago, onekidanddone said:

They were born in Grandma Mary's old house. Same place Josh took a nap while Anna was in labor.

We don't know where they were born.  Their births occurred after Josh and Anna were off the show. By that time Ben and Jessa were living in grandma Mary's old house so it wouldn't have been there.

[Cleopatra7]

7 hours ago, MarblesMom said:

My late sister, who worked in L&D for many, many years described women giving birth as "having one foot on a banana peel and the other on the grave."

When I brought this up on a Catholic blog thread about the “unnaturalness” of contraception, I was asked why I don’t like babies. Liking or not liking babies isn’t the point. Giving birth is an objectively dangerous procedure, and if conservative Catholics don’t get that, then it’s no wonder that most rank and file Catholics refuse to listen to them on this subject.

[rainbowbubbles]

This was on my Google feed this morning..

http://www.faithwire.com/2017/11/20/amy-duggar-calls-for-compassion-after-tlc-fires-derick-dillard-over-remarks-about-transgender-teen/

Amy Duggar Calls for Compassion After TLC Fires Derick Dillard Over Remarks About Transgender Teen

[onekidanddone]

7 hours ago, justmy2cents said:

 

We don't know where they were born.  Their births occurred after Josh and Anna were off the show. By that time Ben and Jessa were living in grandma Mary's old house so it wouldn't have been there.

Oh right. I read the question wrong.  It was Mac and Michael who were born in grandma's house. Not sure about Mer, I seem to reacall the quick, birth announcement for M5 was that he was  born at home.

[Heidijoey]

I thought Meredith was born in a birthing center for some reason.  

I know the first 2 were born at home and then Marcus I think was born in the tub.  Maybe I'm also thinking of his birth being at the birthing center. 

[TeddyBonkers]

Bonkers #1 was 12 days over 40 weeks when I was able to be induced. Had her in the hospital and everything going was great until the doc didn't clamp the cord well before cutting it. 

BLOOD. EVERYWHERE.

[BabyFactoryClosing]

I don't have anything against monitored, informed homebirths but knowing what I know now, I couldn't do it. With my first documentaries like business of being born had me so scared of a hospital birth that I planned on giving birth at home. Thankfully my father (who is THE most backwoods "pop them out in a cornfield" man you will ever meet") told me "baby girl maybe just for the first one you should do it in a hospital and just see what your body thinks about labor".  Oooooh boy am I glad I listened. I will spare you the drama but suffice it to say our lives would be very very different had I chosen to stay at home. After that, knowing that my body hates both pregnancy and labor I stuck with the hospital and soo happy I did. The first I might have gotten out alive at home but with severe consequences for him but the second would have killed me. Easily. Or at least ensured that I never had children or walked right again. And that was with a textbook pregnancy, a very quick labor with rapid dilation and wonderful doctors that let me push in every hippy position I could think of.

One of my dear friends is planning an unattended homebirth after an unmonitored pregnancy. I'm scared out of my mind. This woman is a labor goddess. Her first was unmedicated hospital birth. Second unmedicated birth center birth. Third planned homebirth with a midwife but he basically delivered himself in the shower before she even had a chance to call the midwife. So this one she decided to just not get checked out at all and do it all alone. I respect her choices but I'd feel better if she at least knew that there is definitely only one baby and the placenta is well away from the cervix

[SorenaJ]

9 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Unfortunately true.  Birth is still the most dangerous experience most Western women will go through.

Do you have a reference for that? Intuitively, I would assume it would be driving in a car, as many more women die in road accidents that giving birth or being in a relation as more women die by being murdered by their partners, or by smoking cigarettes, as more women die by lung cancer than giving birth. 

I mean, in sub-saharan Africa for sure the maternal mortality rate is high, but in the Western world I'd like to see the statistics. It might well be calculated in a different way that I would intuitively do.