Dillards 45: The Grift Goes On

[mango_fandango]

I have nothing against homebirth at all (as long as it’s with properly qualified midwives), I just wouldn’t do it myself. If something did go wrong I’d prefer to be already in a hospital rather than have to be transferred, even if it was close; things can happen really fast in labour especially if you need an emergency C-section. 

[Jinder Roles]

@TakingBibleClasses I'm so sorry you feel excluded from your church when that happens. And I agree that sex the "right" say sermons have weird bragging rights connotations.

However, the guy that posted the tweet said in another posts that he was being sarcastic. Unfortunately, fundie humour isn't very good. 

[bananabread]

I'm in my early twenties, and I already know of several women who have opted for homebirths. Most of them have ended badly, with one women nearly killing her child by insisting on a homebirth EVEN AFTER her midwives said she needed to go to the hospital for an emergency c-section. Fortunately, they eventually forced her to go. She complains constantly about the procedure that saved her child (and most likely herself as well).

I get that doctors/hospitals aren't always nice and make mistakes, but you couldn't pay me to have a homebirth. Especially with the first child, when you really have no idea about how your body will handle labor. I think our modern, first-world society is so removed from the horrible realities of fatal hemorrhages, protracted labors, obstetric fistulas, stillbirths, etc etc that we've forgotten why doctors and hospitals were invented to begin with.

[Knight of Ni]

I would never choose a home birth because even with the most qualified midwives anything could go wrong. If something goes wrong seconds matter and I don’t want to be minutes away. A tonsillectomy is a routine out patient procedure with low risk of complications but it does happen however rarely. 

[Cleopatra7]

My theory is that the reason why the militantly fecund fundies are so obsessed with homebirth is because they want to refute one of the most common justifications for birth control, namely that being constantly pregnant and giving birth can be injurious to a woman’s health or even lead to death. Unassisted home births send the message that giving birth is so “normal” and “natural” that a woman can do it at home with no help and be up and about in an hour to fix dinner. Therefore, there’s no reason to limit the size of one’s family, because pregnancy and childbirth are just so darn easy that anyone can do it, even in their living room. Not mentioned is the fact that less than a hundred years ago, one out of three women died in childbirth and many children never saw their first birthday. A quick trip to your local cemetery, especially an old one, will most likely indicate that many of the graves are for babies and young children, not the elderly.

[apandaaries]

On one of the Counting On episodes, Jill, DWreck, and Izzy are shown in Central America while they listened to the heartbeat or something.  Jill commented that she had all that midwifery training so that she could monitor herself while abroad.  There was also a brief comment about hoping they wouldn't have any problems, with a bit of a nervous laugh.

Of course it's all "reality" TV, so grain of salt and all...but they seemed to indicate that any and all prenatal care was being covered by Jill herself.    

[justoneoftwo]

38 minutes ago, bananabread said:

I think our modern, first-world society is so removed from the horrible realities of fatal hemorrhages, protracted labors, obstetric fistulas, stillbirths, etc etc that we've forgotten why doctors and hospitals were invented to begin with.

This is so true.  Just try mentioning in a birthing class that a bad outcome is the death of both patients.  They will just look at you like your crazy.

[crazysnark]

I think the reason they do home births is so they can avoid male doctors seeing/touching private areas. The only reason Anna decided to give birth at home last minute with Mack is because Dr. Sarver was on vacation. 

[VelociRapture]

12 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

I would never choose a home birth because even with the most qualified midwives anything could go wrong. If something goes wrong seconds matter and I don’t want to be minutes away. A tonsillectomy is a routine out patient procedure with low risk of complications but it does happen however rarely. 

To be fair, things can go very wrong during hospital births as well. Even with the best Doctors. 

But I agree. I personally felt better knowing we were planning on a hospital birth because if something went very wrong the OR was right there. The only thing I might do different next time is wait longer for an epidural - I wasn’t pressured at all (the staff were phenomenal about not pressuring me on anything not medically necessary actually), I just wanted to rest overnight and was a bit concerned I wouldn’t be able to if the contractions turned painful at some point (and thankfully I did manage to rest off and on - my husband, Doctor, and the Nurses were awesome.)

But I figure each labor is different. If we’re lucky enough to have a second then we’ll just roll with the punches again. And we plan to stay with the OBGYN practice as well. They got me and my baby through premature labor happy, healthy, and (most importantly) safely. 

[Rachel333]

19 hours ago, Bad Wolf said:

Today the sermon was about how you can tell the health and spirituality of a country by the way women are treated. Derick would have fainted.

Nah, I think he would fully agree, pointing at Muslim countries while completely ignoring the way his own faith and party mistreats women.

[Sky with diamonds]

16 minutes ago, amandaaries said:

On one of the Counting On episodes, Jill, DWreck, and Izzy are shown in Central America while they listened to the heartbeat or something.  Jill commented that she had all that midwifery training so that she could monitor herself while abroad.  There was also a brief comment about hoping they wouldn't have any problems, with a bit of a nervous laugh.

Of course it's all "reality" TV, so grain of salt and all...but they seemed to indicate that any and all prenatal care was being covered by Jill herself.    

Yikes. Even reading about it makes me uneasy. 

[Georgiana]

@Cleopatra7, I think this is very true. I think it will be interesting to see how the movement handles all the health issues these mega multiparas have down the line. Michelle in particular seems to be shrinking, and I am beginning to suspect she may have bone density issues from her years of poor diet and many pregnancies.

[luxfilia]

After doing my own research for years, I have no faith that a hospital birth is statistically safer than a low-risk home birth attended by a CERTIFIED NURSE midwife. In fact, some of the interventions in hospitals can actually lead to emergency situations. I would never try to convince someone else of this, but I think it's important to note that some people who choose home births are actually very well-informed, and, for their situation, choosing what they believe to be the safest option. I highly suggest reading Ina May Gaskin's Guide To Childbirth and watching the documentary The Business of Being Born. Both of these have some very interesting data from peer-reviewed studies that might surprise you. Personally, I believe that a hospital birth can be RISKIER. But there are many, many factors at play besides just hospital vs. home (or vs. birth clinic). The generalizations can feel insulting.

[karen77]

5 minutes ago, luxfilia said:

After doing my own research for years, I have no faith that a hospital birth is statistically safer than a low-risk home birth attended by a CERTIFIED NURSE midwife. In fact, some of the interventions in hospitals can actually lead to emergency situations. I would never try to convince someone else of this, but I think it's important to note that some people who choose home births are actually very well-informed, and, for their situation, choosing what they believe to be the safest option. I highly suggest reading Ina May Gaskin's Guide To Childbirth and watching the documentary The Business of Being Born. Both of these have some very interesting data from peer-reviewed studies that might surprise you. Personally, I believe that a hospital birth can be RISKIER. But there are many, many factors at play besides just hospital vs. home (or vs. birth clinic). The generalizations can feel insulting.

BUt this is hard to quantify. The hospitals end up with ALL the high risk births, while the home births are the low risk births (unless someone is dumb and won't go to the hospital even with the recommendation that they are high risk), so you aren't comparing apples to apples.

[luxfilia]

3 minutes ago, karen77 said:

BUt this is hard to quantify. The hospitals end up with ALL the high risk births, while the home births are the low risk births (unless someone is dumb and won't go to the hospital even with the recommendation that they are high risk), so you aren't comparing apples to apples.

Yes, but I'm speaking about more specific data than this. Of course you have to consider the differences. My point is that every time this topic comes up, some people speak about home births as if they are innately more risky or a stupid choice, but haven't done much research on their own. I'm just trying to speak for those who realize that choosing home birth does not mean ignorance or Duggar-stupidity.

[justoneoftwo]

5 minutes ago, karen77 said:

BUt this is hard to quantify. The hospitals end up with ALL the high risk births, while the home births are the low risk births (unless someone is dumb and won't go to the hospital even with the recommendation that they are high risk), so you aren't comparing apples to apples.

This, so much this.  The stats are not clear, and there are peer reviewed studies going both ways.  I believe many people who decide either way are informed and trying to make the best decision, but things like The Business of Being Born or Sceptic OB are both using scare tactics and should be reviewed critically.  

[Rachel333]

I've shared this before with more detail, but just among people in my circle there have been two home births that went terribly wrong, one ending up in the baby having permanent, severe brain damage, and the other in the mother's death. In both cases both the mother and baby were perfectly healthy until the birth so there was no indication that a homebirth might not be the best choice, and in both cases the tragedy could have been avoided if they were already in the hospital. 

This topic has come up a lot on FJ, and even just on the Dillard threads. I know in previous discussions people have pointed out a lot of things wrong with The Business of Being Born.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, AtlanticTug said:

I have said many times (as an insulin-dependent diabetic) that I think GD was a very distinct possibility.

PE/HELLP you don't really need screening for in the sense that as it goes on you will feel very, very ill. There is just no evidence of any of them having that as an issue and we've seen them up and about pretty much up to the day of birth + videos of the births and there was no indication of those issues surfacing.

Agree about HELLP, but disagree with PE- lots of women bump around with mild cases without being that incapacitated.

[Rachel333]

23 minutes ago, luxfilia said:

Yes, but I'm speaking about more specific data than this. Of course you have to consider the differences. My point is that every time this topic comes up, some people speak about home births as if they are innately more risky or a stupid choice, but haven't done much research on their own. I'm just trying to speak for those who realize that choosing home birth does not mean ignorance or Duggar-stupidity.

I agree that it's often really obnoxious when people act like those who disagree with them are automatically less informed.

[cascarones]

I think most women make the choices they view are right in their birth plan, but I also think it's important to do research on homebirth with and without medical professionals present, because sometimes the unexpected happens and knowing what to do next can be really important.  A friend had only ever had a plan for the hospital so when she had to unexpectedly give birth at home, nobody had any idea what to do or if it was going correctly. She'd been counting on nurses and doctors to guide her through labor and reassure her. She was afraid of it to begin with and trying to read about it made her anxious, so she and her husband were essentially clueless and because phone and internet were down, couldn't call anyone. They've decided to not have any more children because of the experience. 

[SassyPants]

I think with the Duggar women (not necessarily Anna, but the others), the prenatal care is spotty to non-existent, so if they aren't being properly followed along the way, how do they determine that they are good candidates for a home birth, especially the first time around?????

[zygote373]

44 minutes ago, luxfilia said:

I highly suggest reading Ina May Gaskin's Guide To Childbirth and watching the documentary The Business of Being Born.

Have you had a chance to read the NYT article I posted above? I agree with much of what you said, but Ina May Gaskin may not be the best spokesperson for it. She doesn't have any formal education in childbirth as far as I can tell, and it's the organization associated with her farm that administers the test Jill took to become "certified". Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

[Jelly Roll]

It has to do with man doctors looking at/touching their vag AND the high cost of hospital birth. They have too many kids to be able to afford private healthcare insurance and they'd rather die than be known to use the ACA or Medicaid.

[Heidijoey]

I don't understand why they wouldn't go middle of the road and use a birthing center of some sort.  

My problem with Jills home birth with Israel was that it took her SO long to finally go to the hospital.  I only have one child and had a pretty simple/easy birth so I'm not sure whats an emergency but I feel like she waited too long for outside care.  Correct me if I'm wrong though.  

[JillyO]

2 hours ago, luxfilia said:

After doing my own research for years, I have no faith that a hospital birth is statistically safer than a low-risk home birth attended by a CERTIFIED NURSE midwife. In fact, some of the interventions in hospitals can actually lead to emergency situations. I would never try to convince someone else of this, but I think it's important to note that some people who choose home births are actually very well-informed, and, for their situation, choosing what they believe to be the safest option. I highly suggest reading Ina May Gaskin's Guide To Childbirth and watching the documentary The Business of Being Born. Both of these have some very interesting data from peer-reviewed studies that might surprise you. Personally, I believe that a hospital birth can be RISKIER. But there are many, many factors at play besides just hospital vs. home (or vs. birth clinic). The generalizations can feel insulting.

Okay, I WANT to give you the benefit of the doubt and believe that you have done proper research. But why in the world would you use Ina May Gaskin and "The Business of Being Born" as your sources? These are highly problematic!

This blog does an excellent job of pointing out some of the ways in which "The Business of Being Born" is incredibly misleading and biased: http://whatifsandfears.blogspot.com/2012/12/the-business-of-being-misled.html.

It is not an unbiased documentary at all. It is full of misleading information and unfounded claims. I strongly suggest you read the blog post if you truly care about this issue.