Jinger 32: Light into the Darkness According to Jeremy

[MadameOvary]

8 hours ago, jacduggar said:

 Jinger has never struck me as a go-getter type who would care to try getting a degree. 

Yes. And that is quite interesting when you think that Jeremy must have some considerable drive and strong work ethic, he would not have made it as far as he did as a professional athlete if he didn't. He has appeared to encourage Jinger to believe in herself and her abilities which is a good sign, but on the other hand it's a bit puzzling that he himself doesn't seem to be pursuing any kind of real qualification in what he is currently doing.

[SapphireSlytherin]

@Shadoewolf - your daughter's hair is amazing. GryffindorDisappointment's hairs was all sorts of colors during high school summers (her school didn't allow "non-natural" hair colors), and typically streaked with blonde/red/black during the school year. She did have one incident when the red and blonde somehow "mixed" and she had hot-pink streaks, so she got called into the office. haha

Hair has ALWAYS been a non-issue in this house, because of the way my mother treated me about MY hair.

[HarleyQuinn]

Jinger is a follower, I feel like she'll always be content just doing that. Plus, Jeremy and his ego probably like having her around to "encourage" him constantly. 

[nst]

Just now, HarleyQuinn said:

Jinger is a follower, I feel like she'll always be content just doing that. Plus, Jeremy and his ego probably like having her around to "encourage" him constantly. 

Jinger is the biggest follower,,, she followed Jessa her entire life, now she just follows him....Jeremy needs her stroking to get the day because he has to appear perfect all the time.  The instagram is reflective 1000% of this

[SapphireSlytherin]

The world needs both followers and leaders. We can't all be leaders, and expecting every.one.of.the.Duggar.girls to be a leader is a bit ridiculous. 

For as little as any of us* know the real Jinger, there are an awful lot of assumptions based on photographs and carefully crafted photo captions.

It's truly a natural division of leadership within the gaggle of Duggarkids. Jinger is not the oldest, which some assume creates a natural leader - or nurtured leader - and she's not the "oldest of a group" either. She and Jessa are so close in age that it's understandable that she looked up to Jessa and (literally) followed her everywhere. Because she was the sixth child/fourth girl in very close succession, she'd have had little opportunity to explore "new" ways of doing things or insist on "her way.

Many people in this world are perfectly happy being followers. They don't want to be "the boss." They just want to go to work, earn their paycheck, and go home. I see it every day. They're worker bees who contribute just as much to the success of the firm, but they don't get glory, they don't get promotions, and they're content. Why push them into leadership roles if they're not comfortable with that and don't desire that?

Why insist Jinger stop being a "follower" now that she's married? Why denigrate her because she's not a leader? I just don't get it.

 

*Assuming everyone here is at least two or three degrees separated from the Duggars.

 

[singsingsing]

@SapphireSlytherin I agree with you. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being a follower, and I think this notion that everyone has to be, or should aspire to be, a leader - or is somehow 'less' if they're content to be a follower - is incredibly harmful to individuals and to society as a whole.

The problem is that there's no other choice for the Duggar daughters. Jinger seems more naturally inclined toward the follower role, and if that's the case, good for her. But even the ones who seem to show a natural interest and aptitude for leadership are forced into the follower role. If they're allowed any kind of leadership attributes/abilities, they're kind of teased about it, and it's all about organizing household things, teaching SOTDRT - proper womanly activities.

There's also a big difference between being a follower and being a doormat. Even followers should be capable of being assertive in a healthy way, of standing up for their own needs, of expressing their opinions, and of exercising agency in their life choices.

[louisa05]

It is important to remember, too, that reality shows have writers. Producers and writers work together to use the footage and create situations which make the subjects into "characters" with personalities that are crafted by them. The truth is we don't know what Jinger's real personality is. For whatever reason, her "role" on the show became Jessa's sidekick, probably because Jessa made for a more charismatic character. 

Now there is the secondary matter that Jinger spent much of her formative years following Jessa for her role as Jessa's sidekick on an unscripted reality show, so she may have residual effects from that as far as developing her own interests. A child/teen could very well have issues from being forced into playing a part in their own life rather than legitimate acting. But what we might be seeing now is Jinger branching out because she is away from that role. Or we might be seeing Jinger playing a new role as the "rebel" that the producers created since she is the one child living away from Arkansas  While Josh may be the natural rebel, he can't play the rebel on television, because adultery/child molestation is not a good rebel plot line for a reality show. 

Whatever the case may be, the reality is that reality shows simply are not real. 

 

[KelseyAnn]

In defense of the Jinger/Jessa dynamic me and my sister emulate the same type of thing and also grew up in a dysfuntioncal home. I needed someone to be 'my voice,' and my sister needed someone to validate her and tell her she mattered. Now, did it maybe seem to some people that she was speaking over me, sure, but that wasn't the case. She was speaking for me and saying the things I wasn't bold enough to say for myself. 

If this is the case for Jinger/Jessa, then I think Jessa deserves a little slack. 

[singsingsing]

I have to disagree that Jessa and Jinger's relationship was manufactured by TLC. Unless they're all lying through their teeth for reasons unknown, Jessa and Jinger have been close since long before TLC came on the scene, and it's pretty clear that Jessa has the more dominant, and Jinger the more submissive, personality. That's not really a surprise, as often people with personalities that balance each other out gravitate together, and it's not a bad thing unless one is manipulating or overpowering the other.

[KelseyAnn]

5 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I have to disagree that Jessa and Jinger's relationship was manufactured by TLC. Unless they're all lying through their teeth for reasons unknown, Jessa and Jinger have been close since long before TLC came on the scene, and it's pretty clear that Jessa has the more dominant, and Jinger the more submissive, personality. That's not really a surprise, as often people with personalities that balance each other out gravitate together, and it's not a bad thing unless one is manipulating or overpowering the other.

Exactly. If Jinger wasn't really that close to Jessa she wouldn't keep in contact with her like she's been doing. 

[louisa05]

I have to disagree that Jessa and Jinger's relationship was manufactured by TLC. Unless they're all lying through their teeth for reasons unknown, Jessa and Jinger have been close since long before TLC came on the scene, and it's pretty clear that Jessa has the more dominant, and Jinger the more submissive, personality. That's not really a surprise, as often people with personalities that balance each other out gravitate together, and it's not a bad thing unless one is manipulating or overpowering the other.

I never said they don’t have a close relationship. The part that is likely manufactured for television is that Jinger was her sidekick and that was very likely because of Jessa having a more extroverted personality. The real dynamic may not be always one “leader” and one “follower” as that is rarely the norm in any relationship. People and interactions are more complex than that in real life.

Which brings me to another point: being introverted as Jinger seems to be does automatically equate to being a follower or having no personal interests as is so often implied about her here.

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

The world needs both followers and leaders. We can't all be leaders, and expecting every.one.of.the.Duggar.girls to be a leader is a bit ridiculous. 

For as little as any of us* know the real Jinger, there are an awful lot of assumptions based on photographs and carefully crafted photo captions.

It's truly a natural division of leadership within the gaggle of Duggarkids. Jinger is not the oldest, which some assume creates a natural leader - or nurtured leader - and she's not the "oldest of a group" either. She and Jessa are so close in age that it's understandable that she looked up to Jessa and (literally) followed her everywhere. Because she was the sixth child/fourth girl in very close succession, she'd have had little opportunity to explore "new" ways of doing things or insist on "her way.

Many people in this world are perfectly happy being followers. They don't want to be "the boss." They just want to go to work, earn their paycheck, and go home. I see it every day. They're worker bees who contribute just as much to the success of the firm, but they don't get glory, they don't get promotions, and they're content. Why push them into leadership roles if they're not comfortable with that and don't desire that?

Why insist Jinger stop being a "follower" now that she's married? Why denigrate her because she's not a leader? I just don't get it.

 

*Assuming everyone here is at least two or three degrees separated from the Duggars.

 

Oh, I  fully agree, but there are people who have commented that perhaps Jinger is a follower because of Jeremey. Nah, she has always been a follower and that is A-OK.

5 minutes ago, louisa05 said:

 

I never said they don’t have a close relationship. The part that is likely manufactured for television is that Jinger was her sidekick and that was very likely because of Jessa having a more extroverted personality. The real dynamic may not be always one “leader” and one “follower” as that is rarely the norm in any relationship. People and interactions are more complex than that in real life.

Which brings me to another point: being introverted as Jinger seems to be does automatically equate to being a follower or having no personal interests as is so often implied about her here.

 

She doesn't have any apparent personal interests because personal interests were abandoned to the common good in Duggarville.

The only outwardly Go-Getter Duggar is John David. He has interests and he has been allowed to pursue those interests. Everyone else is rather uninspired, IMO.

[Special friend]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

The only outwardly Go-Getter Duggar is John David. He has interests and he has been allowed to pursue those interests. Everyone else is rather uninspired, IMO.

Well, John David and Jill, actually.

I still remember her trying to learn in the chaos of the girls room, with no quiet place to go to. She was very disciplined about it, much more than any other Duggar we know about.

She also attended many, many births. (I think it said several hundred hours? Not sure, though.) These were often in the middle if the night or very early in the morning. 

She actually finished her degree, before the hours were taken away from her through no fault of her own. (Are we sure they took her hours?) ETA: That is no small feat in a houshold this chaotic, where you are the only person actually pursuing a degree (as far as we know)!

She was also the one who learned Spanish and decided it was important for the younger ones to learn, so she started teaching them. (And later they had a Latino lady?) But Michelle stated quite clearly that it had been Jill's initiative to learn Spanish and then her decision that it was important for the little ones to learn it, as well.

So in many ways, she is a real go getter. Especially among the girls.

[MoonFace]

On 10/25/2017 at 2:36 PM, ShesCrafty said:

In general, I couldn’t care less what happens after I die or what type of memorial service or funeral may be held for me (whatever would bring comfort to my loved ones is a-ok with me). But for some reason, the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead irritates the hell out of me. It’s just so blatantly arrogant. Ugh. 

It would be a hoot if someone decided to baptize a loved one and someone, playing a practical joke, 'spoke from beyond" and said, "Not now - I'm playing poker with the devil right now."  

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, Special friend said:

Well, John David and Jill, actually.

I still remember her trying to learn in the chaos of the girls room, with no quiet place to go to. She was very disciplined about it, much more than any other Duggar we know about.

She also attended many, many births. (I think it said several hundred hours? Not sure, though.) These were often in the middle if the night or very early in the morning. 

She actually finished her degree, before the hours were taken away from her through no fault of her own. (Are we sure they took her hours?) ETA: That is no small feat in a houshold this chaotic, where you are the only person actually pursuing a degree (as far as we know)!

She was also the one who learned Spanish and decided it was important for the younger ones to learn, so she started teaching them. (And later they had a Latino lady?) But Michelle stated quite clearly that it had been Jill's initiative to learn Spanish and then her decision that it was important for the little ones to learn it, as well.

So in many ways, she is a real go getter. Especially among the girls.

IDK- about all of this. According to some report, the Dillard were let go from SOS because of their inability to learn Spanish, so I do not think that Jill was ever actually grasping the Spanish language enough o communicate. I think Jill's biggest gift is that of gab. She talks a lot about all the things she wanted to do or was doing, but not fully doing much of anything. 

Remember when she stopped doing the midwife training because she was courting? And it remained on the back burner for the next year and half. Why didn't she finish all that before she had the baby and was running back and forth to WM to have lunch with DD? TBH, I think the only reasons she finished that certification test were : 1) It allowed her to come back to the US and 2) People on social media, including the TLC site, were questioning why she did not follow through on her studies. Jill fully admitted when she dropped out during the courtship that she had no intention of being a LMW once she married and had kids.

She was killing time- and poor Jana was forced to kill time with her.

[Lurky]

1 hour ago, Special friend said:

She actually finished her degree, before the hours were taken away from her through no fault of her own. (Are we sure they took her hours?)

It wasn't a degree - it was a Certified Professional Midwife certificate, which is not the same, and doesn't have the same medical training that actual Midwives get.  See more: http://www.skepticalob.com/2015/09/jill-duggar-dillard-is-not-a-real-midwife-shes-a-cpm-a-counterfeit-professional-midwife.html

And it was a really good thing her hours were taken away, because she was trained by someone who was actively dangerous and caused the death of at least 1 baby. 

I absolutely feel for Jill, because as you say, the studying was hard, and I bet cash money it was her parents who wouldn't let her get an medical midwifery qualification, and I bet they are the ones who pushed her to train with Vanessa Giron rather than someone with proper training, who wasn't dangerous.  It's JB & M who are to blame for hamstringing their favourite older daughter this way, and it is incredibly shitty.

PS Someone upthread said Jinger's photos would be good enough for a Fine Art/Photography Degree.   I can tell you, from my experience, they aren't.  They're nice enough portraits, but that's not enough for an art degree in a reputable art school/university.   It's like the difference between playing the piano well, and being able to complete a Music degree.

[nastyhobbitses]

7 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Many people in this world are perfectly happy being followers. They don't want to be "the boss." They just want to go to work, earn their paycheck, and go home. I see it every day. They're worker bees who contribute just as much to the success of the firm, but they don't get glory, they don't get promotions, and they're content. Why push them into leadership roles if they're not comfortable with that and don't desire that?

This is me. I hope to advance in my field, of course, but I don't think I'd want to be a C-suite executive or manage more than a small team. I prefer doing the work that needs to be done, and I don't care about being the "face" of a department or the firm, or getting glory for stuff; I just want to keep the gears moving, and seeing everything fall into place because of my efforts combined with that of others makes me happy. I don't really want to have to sacrifice time spent in the weeds doing the research and analysis I enjoy doing to manage other people and deal with the bureaucracy of being the boss (and that preference would make me a massive micro-manager, which people would hate). I don't think that makes me a drone or a submissive, subservient follower.

I do think that Jinger is under-educated and has grown up in a culture that deliberately didn't let her reach her full potential, or really discover if she was a leader or a follower, but I also don't think there's anything wrong with preferring to be a follower rather than a leader. Let's put it this way: everyone wants to be Eponine, but the show is pretty bare and boring without the chorus.

[VelociRapture]

14 hours ago, SassyPants said:

IDK- about all of this. According to some report, the Dillard were let go from SOS because of their inability to learn Spanish, so I do not think that Jill was ever actually grasping the Spanish language enough o communicate. I think Jill's biggest gift is that of gab. She talks a lot about all the things she wanted to do or was doing, but not fully doing much of anything. 

Remember when she stopped doing the midwife training because she was courting? And it remained on the back burner for the next year and half. Why didn't she finish all that before she had the baby and was running back and forth to WM to have lunch with DD? TBH, I think the only reasons she finished that certification test were : 1) It allowed her to come back to the US and 2) People on social media, including the TLC site, were questioning why she did not follow through on her studies. Jill fully admitted when she dropped out during the courtship that she had no intention of being a LMW once she married and had kids.

She was killing time- and poor Jana was forced to kill time with her.

Jill did not drop her studies the second she began courting. She continued assisting at births and studying well into her marriage. She helped deliver a baby about a month prior to marriage:

She assisted in another delivery on March 10, 2015, mere weeks before Izzy was born:

Spoiler

 

October 2015 is when she earned her NARM credential, though that doesn’t seem very useful considering she can’t legally practice in Arkansas:

 

Spoiler

 

 

The most recent birth she helped at (that we know about publicly) was on September 20, 2016:

 

Spoiler

 

Unfortunately, that 2016 birth was with Venessa’s relocated practice in Tulsa - they shared the same photo on their Facebook page. So Jill appears to have not learned a damn thing from her apprenticeship debacle. I’m not sure whether it was illegal for Jill to assist with a birth in Oklahoma though because requirements vary between states and it’s possible the NARM certification would allow her to assist in states other than Arkansas. It definitely wasn’t a good decision in my opinion. I don’t believe she’s publicly assisted at a birth since that one, other than (I believe) Henry’s birth. It won’t really surprise me if she’s shown studying or assisting with a birth in the future though. 

As for why she didn’t finish her requirements for Arkansas sooner - she may not have been allowed to by the state. The botched birth occurred in February 2014, before Jill and Derick were engaged. Venessa’s license (as well as Jill’s and Jana’s permits) was officially revoked soon after Izzy’s birth in April 2015. There would have been an inquiry between that time and it’s possible that the licensure process was delayed for Jill until a final decision was reached. I don’t know for sure though, so maybe someone else who does know could confirm or deny that guess.

[SassyPants]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

Jill did not drop her studies the second she began courting. She continued assisting at births and studying well into her marriage. She helped deliver a baby about a month prior to marriage:

She assisted in another delivery on March 10, 2015, mere weeks before Izzy was born:

October 2015 is when she earned her NARM credential, though that doesn’t seem very useful considering she can’t legally practice in Arkansas:

The most recent birth she helped at (that we know about publicly) was on September 20, 2016:

Unfortunately, that 2016 birth was with Venessa’s relocated practice in Tulsa - they shared the same photo on their Facebook page. So Jill appears to have not learned a damn thing from her apprenticeship debacle. I’m not sure whether it was illegal for Jill to assist with a birth in Oklahoma though because requirements vary between states and it’s possible the NARM certification would allow her to assist in states other than Arkansas. It definitely wasn’t a good decision in my opinion. I don’t believe she’s publicly assisted at a birth since that one, other than (I believe) Henry’s birth. It won’t really surprise me if she’s shown studying or assisting with a birth in the future though. 

As for why she didn’t finish her requirements for Arkansas sooner - she may not have been allowed to by the state. The botched birth occurred in February 2014, before Jill and Derick were engaged. Venessa’s license (as well as Jill’s and Jana’s permits) was officially revoked soon after Izzy’s birth in April 2015. There would have been an inquiry between that time and it’s possible that the licensure process was delayed for Jill until a final decision was reached. I don’t know for sure though, so maybe someone else who does know could confirm or deny that guess.

I could have sworn that Jill herself announced that she would be taking a break from her studies and the practicum once she started courting...do not care enough about it to actually look for that quote, but I know I heard or read it coming from Jill.

[feministxtian]

I know 2 people with BFA degrees. One is a massage therapist and the other was a bartender and is now who the hell knows. I also know a couple of photographers who have never taken a class and are pretty damn good...and make a living at it. 

I have a shitty AAS degree...I was too fucking dumb to pass Calculus so I never did get the BSME I wanted. Thing is, I have a pretty good job again...I've freelanced, taught and now I'm the "head" of the engineering department at the company I currently work for...

So...that 4 year degree may or may not be useful, no matter what you major in. 

[marmalade]

So NARM allowed Jill to sit for their exam despite her hours being revoked? Something is fishy there. 

[nst]

35 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

I could have sworn that Jill herself announced that she would be taking a break from her studies and the practicum once she started courting...do not care enough about it to actually look for that quote, but I know I heard or read it coming from Jill.

I read it as well - and I swear I heard her say it on one of her episodes 

[JDuggs]

Maybe Jill did take a break from her studies and practicum, one month, two months, six months, and then started up again. Maybe she thought she wouldn’t be able to finish, then changed her mind. It appears that we have some evidence though that she was still pursuing this during her engagement, while pregnant with Izzy and right after Izzy was born.

[jqlgoblue]

There is no doubt Jill put in a lot of work, even if it didn't materialize into 'real' qualifications. That is the fault of the cult, as she was steered towards certifications that weren't real and people that were shady. She honestly doesn't know better. Also, I do remember her trying Spanish out with the Latina friend. Again, it was wisdom booklet level stuff, but it certainly wasn't something Michelle was likely to have wanted the kids to do so there was some initiative/interest there even if she and the other kids don't have the educational baseline to really learn it (which is super sad btw b/c while I don't believe any of these kids are naturally gifted they were super stunted by ATI school).

It's really interesting to me that while they were courting both Jill and Derick looked like go-getters, relatively speaking, and here they are today grifting and looking totally silly. I do think whatever is going on with Derick health wise could be a real contributing factor here (not to get them off the hook entirely).

[xlurker]

22 hours ago, Lurky said:

PS Someone upthread said Jinger's photos would be good enough for a Fine Art/Photography Degree.   I can tell you, from my experience, they aren't.  They're nice enough portraits, but that's not enough for an art degree in a reputable art school/university.   It's like the difference between playing the piano well, and being able to complete a Music degree.

Absolutly agree!  Her eye needs to be trained, her composition is lacking--these are mosty things that can be taught along with dark room skills, or what is prob now photo shop skills (this kills me, as I happen to LOVE the dark room!)  But the drive is there, and from the few still lifes we have seen there is that talent of "seeing " things a different way.  Lots of polishing, and some basic art/composition skills are needed.  As a portrait photographer getting inspiration from pinterest I bet she could be an adequate photographer with a little work now.