Jinger 32: Light into the Darkness According to Jeremy

[VelociRapture]

43 minutes ago, VooDooChild said:

Aside from photography and midwife, what are other GotHard approved vocations for girls?  

Also, I agree with the above poster who said that any further education would expose the crappy-ness that is the Duggar homeschool.  NO way would those kids not have to take remedial courses.  Maybe that is the reason that What's-his-name Duggar only lasted a short time at Clown??

Joseph went to Crown, I believe for a real estate certificate program. 

Erin Bates Paine teaches piano. Alyssa Bates Webster cleans office buildings with her husband. Michael Bates Keilen was a nanny for several years and sells home sewn baby items through her website. Tabitha Paine was a live-in tutor for the Duggars, a role I believe Laura has taken over. Sierra planned two Duggar weddings and has dabbled in selling stuff (I recall something about chocolate strawberries.) The eldest Duggar daughters “wrote a book.” Marjorie Jackson as as well. And Jessa was doing speaking engagements, though I don’t know how much she does that now.

So all those are likely pretty accepted options. Josie Bates is pursuing a cosmetology degree through Crown, so I’d guess that would be ok (possibly under certain circumstances.) Whitney Bates just began working as a realtor, but I don’t know how ok that would be considered.

[SapphireSlytherin]

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

Josie Bates is pursuing a cosmetology degree through Crown

Annnndddd... I read this "Josie Duggar" and was stunned that she was precocious enough to be in college at, what? 7? 8? lol

[cascarones]

While my fundie family isn't Gothard, they do run in the same wider circles as the Duggars (Bates are mutual friends). Careers include:

Sewing: working in an all female sewing factory on family land (most of them do this).

Animal husbandry: my grandmother bred and sold chihuahuas that barked very little, did dog grooming and obedience lessons. Riding lessons, dressage, helping with stabling.

Farm work: Our vacations as kids were always planned to be extra hands come harvest time, canning and selling jam/pickles.

Receptionist/ office manager at their father or husband's business. Two are dental hygienists and work part time, watching each other's children while the other is at work.  

Note the biggest impediment to these: They're all hard work. 

[Carm_88]

IF Jinger were to go to university, that's a big if, she would have an easier time than Jill because she doesn't have three kids. I'm counting Derick as a child, no matter how much she wants to post about his wonderfulness on social media. 

[Georgiana]

3 minutes ago, Carm_88 said:

IF Jinger were to go to university, that's a big if, she would have an easier time than Jill because she doesn't have three kids. I'm counting Derick as a child, no matter how much she wants to post about his wonderfulness on social media. 

This is very, very true.  Though I will add that this would only remain true if Jinger remains without kids until she completes a degree (4+ years, most likely).  Which I would say is slightly unlikely.  But so long as Jill remains in AR (more likely, I would say), she'll have a far easier time pursuing education with kids simply because she has such deep family resources to draw on for childcare.  I'm sure Jinger has a great support system, but there are things you can do with family babysitters that it is very hard to do with friends.  Jinger would have to have set hours for dropping off and picking up her kids, whereas Jill would be able to pretty much drop her kids off at TTH and pick them up whenever.  Jill could also have a sister per night assist her with her kids during stressful seasons (like midterms/finals).  That would be a HUGE ask of friends, but there are so many babysitters in that family that it would be a much smaller ask per person.  PLUS, I am sure that one or two of the lost girls would JUMP at the opportunity to spend time at Jill's house where they would have order, quiet, probably some more freedom/treats, and more one on one time with Jill.  

I just don't see Jinger having much better chances in higher ed than Jill.  I think they would BOTH face many of the same problems and hurdles.  Ditto to Joy and Jana.  I think the only reason the discussion is so negative when it's Jill and so positive when it's Jinger is because we LIKE Jinger more than Jill.  Realistically, however, they're probably on par in terms of education and chances of success.  

The one Duggar Daughter I believe would have a slightly better shot at high ed than the others is Jessa.  NOT because of her education, but because she is stubborn and willing to stick to her guns.  I don't see it being any EASIER for Jessa, I just think that should she set her mind on getting a degree,  Jessa would be too stubborn to quit even when it gets rough and would EVENTUALLY see it through.  

[Lurker]

 I disagree with @snickers34, photography IS offered as a major in Universities.

Offhand, I can think of New York University, Rochester Institute of Technology, Cooper Union just in New York State.  NYU and RIT also have Master’s programs in Photography.  Standards are high, these are all extremely selective schools.

As much as Jinger is my favorite, I agree that is highly unlikely that she would be able to do the prerequisites for a degree at any University with her limited  education at Michelles knee.  

But she can take classes in photography at a community college now.  If she wants to go further she can work on remedial classes to fill in the gaps.  She is married to guy that seems to love learning, she says she is loving reading, she doesn't have small kids at home.

 

 

 

[JDuggs]

Jessa’s shown the least interest in any type of career besides “being a Duggar.” However, she seems like she’s the one most likely to monetize her celebrity. She seems like she would be very content giving speeches about modesty, courting, marriage, family, etc. on a regular basis. She’s already an expert on these subjects so she doesn’t need any more education.

[backyard sylph]

On 11/7/2017 at 2:08 PM, PennySycamore said:

@backyard sylph,  I had to look this up because it's been so long (like 50 years) since I've seen Dark Shadows regularly, but Quentin Collins was a werewolf.  I don't know who the Dark Shadows vampires were other than Barnabas and Angelique.  

I remember he was a werewolf. Because when I was a little girl, I thought maybe all the men with mutton chop facial hair could also be werewolves. :-)

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, JDuggs said:

Jessa’s shown the least interest in any type of career besides “being a Duggar.” However, she seems like she’s the one most likely to monetize her celebrity. She seems like she would be very content giving speeches about modesty, courting, marriage, family, etc. on a regular basis. She’s already an expert on these subjects so she doesn’t need any more education.

Jessa has confidence (probably overconfident for her situation) that the rest do not display. Jill used to act confident, but not any more. Her life has gone to hell since the Josh scandal.

[Juest]

1 hour ago, socalrules said:

I can’t see Jill or Jinger ever pursuing an education through an accredited school. They married educated men who sought and married women who were raised to be followers of their husbands and who had deficient educations. I don’t believe Derick or Jeremy would encourage their wives to pursue an education because it could backfire. What happens with they start truly thinking independently and not about how they dress? What happens if they find friends who think differently but they realize are wonderful people whose company they enjoy? Then your wife become the opposite of what you married. If Derick and Jeremy wanted well-rounded, educated, independent wives, they would have married someone else. They wanted the type of wIfe they got, who happens to be uneducated and raised to be a follower of her husband. As Derick and Jeremy  goes, so goes their wives. I would put money on neither Jill or Jinger ever getting any type of real education. I am still waiting for one of the Duggar women to actually show an interest in something that is not based on their husband’s interest and not approved by Gothard/fundies for women. Until then, I don’t believe anything will change. 

"As Derick and Jeremy  goes, so goes their wives''

Jeremy's parents and siblings are well educated. His family have put a high value on education and the rigor and discipline achieving one requires. Jeremy's circle of friends are also educated people.

The Duggars, on the other hand, seem to take pride in dismissing it's value! Their children are only legally obligated to sloppily shuffle through to whatever grade level they achieve by age 16.

This differential in a very core value between these two families does NOT bode well for a sustainable marriage. Especially when children arrive and their educational future needs to be mapped out and agreed upon. 

I am Jeremy's parents age, [and from New Jersey] and I would be alarmed/ CONCERNED if my son became involved with a family so backwards and different from our own, in that it JUST WON'T WORK!

Jinger is lovely, naturally intelligent, and doesn't seem to ascribe to the willful ignorance of her family and siblings [Jill, Joy] so I am hopeful for her. Yes: If we were the parents of this oddly matched couple, we would have had several sit downs with them, individually, and with the two of them

I strongly believe Jeremy and his parents are/or will be gently encouraging Jinger toward a higher education.

  

[evolutionbaby]

30 minutes ago, Juest said:

Jeremy's parents and siblings are well educated. His family have put a high value on education and the rigor and discipline achieving one requires. Jeremy's circle of friends are also educated people.

I strongly believe Jeremy and his parents are/or will be gently encouraging Jinger toward a higher education.

  

I agree with this, and I could definitely see Jinger achieving some kind of education in the arts, maybe not an undergraduate degree, but even a certificate or Diploma. Her first role will be as a mother and servant to Jeremy, of course, but I think similar to his own mother, he will want her to have some kind of pursuit outside the home. It carries clout in his circles.

His mother is a musician and has fundraised for non-profit arts organizations. I could see Jinger doing similar things too. Maybe study on the side while raising a young family and then do some work once the kids are a bit older. I don't think J&J are going to have a gigantic family. I can picture them having, 3 or maybe 4 kids at the most. Jeremy comes from a family of 3.

[HarryPotterFan]

I think one difference between Jinger and Jill in terms of barriers to perusing their preferred careers is the level of certification required to legally practice. There aren't national or state certifications or tests required to legally charge people for taking pictures. Jinger could take a couple of non-credit couple college courses or classes at local art studio to improve her photography skills. Then she could charge other fundies for engagement and wedding pics. She wouldn't have the same skill and knowledge as someone who put in the hard work into getting a degree, but she'd be better than the average person off the street. She could turn amateur photography into a career of sorts. You can't go an amateur route with midwifery/nursing. Well I guess you can, like Jill did with her lay midwife shenanigans, but there are more limits on where and under what circumstances she can legally practice. And her preferred career would put her in life or death situations. There is also more room for mistakes and forgiveness in photography than delivering babies. 

I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense. While writing this out I had to keep going back rewriting it...which involved throwing in the word "legally." Because if I've learned anything from these people it's that you CAN charge people for anything, no matter your skill level. You'll just have to run and hide before the ambulance comes if you're illegally practicing medicine/delivering babies in a situation you aren't trained to do so when you're passing yourself off as a professional.

Now, Jinger's first step toward continuing her education in any form would be for Jeremy to convince her that sitting next to someone with purple hair or tattoos wouldn't be the end of the world. I'd love for Jinger to dye her hair a fun color as an FU to her parents. Never gonna happen though. *sigh* A girl can dream...

[louisa05]

"As Derick and Jeremy  goes, so goes their wives''
Jeremy's parents and siblings are well educated. His family have put a high value on education and the rigor and discipline achieving one requires. Jeremy's circle of friends are also educated people.
The Duggars, on the other hand, seem to take pride in dismissing it's value! Their children are only legally obligated to sloppily shuffle through to whatever grade level they achieve by age 16.
This differential in a very core value between these two families does NOT bode well for a sustainable marriage. Especially when children arrive and their educational future needs to be mapped out and agreed upon. 
I am Jeremy's parents age, [and from New Jersey] and I would be alarmed/ CONCERNED if my son became involved with a family so backwards and different from our own, in that it JUST WON'T WORK!
Jinger is lovely, naturally intelligent, and doesn't seem to ascribe to the willful ignorance of her family and siblings [Jill, Joy] so I am hopeful for her. Yes: If we were the parents of this oddly matched couple, we would have had several sit downs with them, individually, and with the two of them
I strongly believe Jeremy and his parents are/or will be gently encouraging Jinger toward a higher education.
  

Don’t under any circumstance other than violent abuse have a “ sit down” with a son and daughter-in-law about how she doesn’t measure up to your expectations and is (because this is how it will be received) not good enough for your son or your family. You will just immediately and always be the parents- in- law from hell.

Education also does not necessarily measure intelligence. My sister- in-law has a BA and is one of the most ignorant people I know. My husband only has an associate degree and is miles more intelligent than her. And don’t come back and say “but the duggars....”. I’m speaking in general and if specifically of any future daughter-in-law you may count not good enough.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

 

Don’t under any circumstance other than violent abuse have a “ sit down” with a son and daughter-in-law about how she doesn’t measure up to your expectations and is (because this is how it will be received) not good enough for your son or your family. You will just immediately and always be the parents- in- law from hell.

Education also does not necessarily measure intelligence. My sister- in-law has a BA and is one of the most ignorant people I know. My husband only has an associate degree and is miles more intelligent than her. And don’t come back and say “but the duggars....”. I’m speaking in general and if specifically of any future daughter-in-law you may count not good enough.

 

I agree with this @Juest. It’s natural for concerns to pop up when a couple comes from such different backgrounds, but I think it’d be overstepping some pretty important boundaries to do multiple sit downs about it. Waiting for your child (General you) or the couple to bring it up might be better. Or, if the couple appears to be moving towards engagement and marriage, maybe casually mentioning (in a discussion your child starts about that general topic) to your child the kind of things you and your spouse (or many couples if you aren’t married) discussed prior to taking that step. 

I think it’s natural to be concerned about big differences like Jinger and Jeremy may face, but it’s also very important to have trust in your child and respect their right to make their own choices and (possibly) mistakes.* 

*If your child is an adult capable of legally consenting to marriage of course. Minors and adult children unable to legally consent are different cases and will require a different approach. 

[SamiKatz]

I also have to interject and say that I am an amatuer photographer, and took classes with a woman who has had photos published in Vanity Fair, People and other major publications, as well as knowing a few people who make their living doing weddings and family photos.  None of them have a university/college degree in the arts, but have put in the work to develop their skill set.

I'm not sure where this idea that having a degree is going to make you a better photographer is coming from. You might learn skills and techniques, but it's all about your eye and things that can't really be taught (but would certain improve your skills if you already have that eye).

Now nursing, midwifery or anything like that, is something that you should have a university/college degree to do.

I also don't get the assumption that because the Duggars are uneducated, they would not be able to acheive any kind of further education.  Anyone can do that if they have a yen to do so, even if it does involve remedial schooling.  I went to university after a very lackluster high school education.  The Duggar issue is that education is not a priority for them because apparently God and their parents want them close to home and beholden to them.  And because education would expose the scam that is Gothardism, of course.

[nausicaa]

4 minutes ago, SamiKatz said:

I also don't get the assumption that because the Duggars are uneducated, they would not be able to acheive any kind of further education.  Anyone can do that if they have a yen to do so, even if it does involve remedial schooling.  I went to university after a very lackluster high school education.  The Duggar issue is that education is not a priority for them because apparently God and their parents want them close to home and beholden to them. 

I don't think anyone's saying they wouldn't ever be able to achieve any higher level of education, just that it would require a work ethic, humility, and dedication that they have not shown thus far. It is harder to get through college when your high school education is sub par, and takes even more effort and dedication than the typical college student must have. Add in an unsupportive husband and children, and that's one hell of a hill to climb. I have mad respect for anyone who's done it, but can anyone say they've seen any of the adult Duggars fully commit and sacrifice for any goal? 

[cascarones]

Quote is wonky, but @Juest stated "Jeremy's parents and siblings are well educated. His family have put a high value on education and the rigor and discipline achieving one requires. Jeremy's circle of friends are also educated people."

Are they? Because he and I have quite a few mutual friends in San Antonio and not all of them pursued secondary education. Jeremy has stated he went to public high school his last two years to pursue his dream of playing professional soccer, he was home schooled before that. He did that for soccer recruiting purposes, not a for large value on education. He played soccer at an accredited school, not one recognized for any sort of academic vigor and it's openly acknowledged athletes are treated differently than the general student population. Part of this is simply due to the amount of class they miss for away games, but I can tell you I loathed group projects when I had to work with college athletes. It says nothing about Jeremy as a student. Athletics is their job, especially if they're on scholarship, and it trumps everything else. He got an undergraduate degree and started a masters because he still had eligible years to play. Yet he didn't finish it once he got a team offer, because again, his dream was to play professional soccer.

Making statements about how important education is to him or his family should always be taken in context with what they've expressed. His mother finds music important, she started a charity for it, so we can say Mama Vuolo sees a lot of benefit in children interacting with music.

Jeremy is an ordained pastor and as far as we're aware, he's taken no educational steps towards a  degree in the field. We can bash on Derick for his fake ministry program for not being accredited, but it does state some accredited programs will count the program as credit. That's more than we've seen Jeremy pursue, so again, it's hard to make statements on the value of education for him or his family (I don't know anything about their educational backgrounds).

[TheMustardCardigan]

I don't think it's safe to say that Jinger doesn't subscribe to the same ignorant beliefs as her family. Have we all been so distracted by Derick's tweets that we've forgotten Jeremy's anti-Catholic stances in his sermons? I think sometimes Jinger has all of FJ's hopes for Duggar girls pinned and projected onto her, to the point of having really selective vision when it comes to her. She likes NYC? She wears pants now? She must be secretly much more progressive than her family, despite the fact that her husband preaches extremely harmful things! 

[singsingsing]

There is definitely a ton of projection going on with Jinger. The truth is that she's more or less an enigma. We don't know whether she's changed her wardrobe because it's something she's always wanted to do, or if Jeremy encouraged it and she was more than happy to go along with it, or if he pressured her into it. We just don't know. Based on what we know about Jinger and Jeremy, it could quite honestly be any of those things. 

We do know that they have an incredibly lopsided relationship, and we know this based on their own words and actions. Jeremy is the leader, Jinger is the follower. Jeremy is an amazing man because of his leadership, intelligence, and chivalrous behaviour toward Jinger, and Jinger is an amazing woman because she's a meek and humble follower of Christ with a servant's heart. Jeremy is the encourager, Jinger is the one in need of encouragement. Jeremy has obviously enjoyed molding her - encouraging different fashion choices, encouraging her to take an interest in the books and topics he likes. None of that makes him evil. But I am sensing a really huge and interesting paradox here: Jeremy and Jinger have the appearance of being the least-fundie Duggar couple so far, but their relationship dynamic is, in my opinion, the most classically fundie of all the married couples.

[HereticHick]

I too would love for Jinj to pursue higher education of some sort, but if/when she gets pregnant--I'm hoping off that speculation train.

[candygirl200413]

Didn't JInger say that Jeremy had a Masters in Finance during the All about Jinger special?

 

[JDuggs]

40 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

 

We do know that they have an incredibly lopsided relationship, and we know this based on their own words and actions. Jeremy is the leader, Jinger is the follower. Jeremy is an amazing man because of his leadership, intelligence, and chivalrous behaviour toward Jinger, and Jinger is an amazing woman because she's a meek and humble follower of Christ with a servant's heart. Jeremy is the encourager, Jinger is the one in need of encouragement. Jeremy has obviously enjoyed molding her - encouraging different fashion choices, encouraging her to take an interest in the books and topics he likes. None of that makes him evil. But I am sensing a really huge and interesting paradox here: Jeremy and Jinger have the appearance of being the least-fundie Duggar couple so far, but their relationship dynamic is, in my opinion, the most classically fundie of all the married couples.

Definitely the most lopsided relationship of the Duggar daughters. I think the age difference is a big part of that too. Jeremy was a mature, reformed “bad boy” while the other husbands appeared earnest without much life experience. But I do think that Jinger has always seemed most open to change. It wouldn’t occur without a headship telling her it’s okay, but now having his approval, she’s happy to evolve. I think the other sisters are a bit more fearful of abandoning the way they were raised.

[SassyPants]

55 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

There is definitely a ton of projection going on with Jinger. The truth is that she's more or less an enigma. We don't know whether she's changed her wardrobe because it's something she's always wanted to do, or if Jeremy encouraged it and she was more than happy to go along with it, or if he pressured her into it. We just don't know. Based on what we know about Jinger and Jeremy, it could quite honestly be any of those things. 

We do know that they have an incredibly lopsided relationship, and we know this based on their own words and actions. Jeremy is the leader, Jinger is the follower. Jeremy is an amazing man because of his leadership, intelligence, and chivalrous behaviour toward Jinger, and Jinger is an amazing woman because she's a meek and humble follower of Christ with a servant's heart. Jeremy is the encourager, Jinger is the one in need of encouragement. Jeremy has obviously enjoyed molding her - encouraging different fashion choices, encouraging her to take an interest in the books and topics he likes. None of that makes him evil. But I am sensing a really huge and interesting paradox here: Jeremy and Jinger have the appearance of being the least-fundie Duggar couple so far, but their relationship dynamic is, in my opinion, the most classically fundie of all the married couples.

Jinger  has ALWAYS been a follower, so this is not unique to their relationship as a couple; does not denote a sudden change in Jin's personality or behaviors based on a choice in spouse.

[singsingsing]

I actually think (and this is totally arguable and just my personal opinion) that Jill is the daughter most open to change. She took the leap and entered into a courtship first, before any of her sisters - that must have been at least somewhat nerve-wracking and definitely treading on unfamiliar territory. She wanted to be a nurse, then compromised and set out to become a midwife. She tried to teach herself Spanish. She travelled overseas to meet the guy she was interested in, and I'll always remember her happily eating the local food and telling Jim Bob to just stop complaining and try it. She wanted to be a missionary, something no one else in her family had pursued...

The issue with Jill is that her learned helplessness trips her up at every turn. It's like she has this natural drive to want to explore and try different things and have experiences, but it's in conflict with her equally strong desire to be Good (which in her case means being the perfect fundie daughter/wife/mother). The drive to be Good will always win unless she can overcome everything she was ever taught about being submissive, obedient, and content.

[Lurky]

This turned into a bit of an essay, oops!

A Photography degree, like any Fine Art degree, isn't just about learning to take (paint/draw) nice pictures, it's about learning a ton of different skills.  Of course lots of successful artists don't have degrees, but it really helps understand what one is trying to achieve and why.   And an Art degree can lead to all kinds of different careers, from curating to teaching, to taking the transferable skills in 100 different directions.  And within photography, there is an endless range, with different courses tailored to someone who wants to be a fashion photographer, or a high-end commercial photographer, or a high class portrait artist, or who wants to make art that is shown in galleries etc etc.

I actually think a Fine Art degree just as hard as a Duggar type, than something like Nursing.  For sure, Nursing is super-hard, and they'd need the remedial work, but up until they were doing practical work, it would be a case of learning facts, and learning to diagnose, and things like that.  Once they got to the work experience side, they'd need to learn to deal with all kinds of different people, and take initiative and so on, and that would be hard.  They'd have to learn to be non-judgemental, and they'd more than likely be challenged on ideas like "all abortions are automatically bad" and so on,

BUT.   There's (in very broad terms) a right or wrong answer in medicine, in terms of what's this diagnosis/treatment etc, and I think if they could get over their judgments, they would feel like they were contributing to the world.

An art degree, on the other hand, while absolutely not dealing with life and death scenarios, is really challenging on a personal level.  Students should be in crits right from the start, having their ideas and work ripped to shreds analysed on every level, and that can be really traumatising.  You have to be able to judge when you agree and disagree with the crit - so, a tutor may hate it, but you push through and do it anyway.  You feel like you're ripped apart sometimes, and need to have the self-belief to be able to cope with and embrace positive and negative criticism.  And to be able to give criticism of other people's work that's separate from judgement.  It's harder to for a homophobe to talk about a gay person's art that's rooted in their experience of homophobia, for example, than it is to take blood from them, or weigh them in a clinic.

And there's no right or wrong answer, everything's subjective!  I think this would be the hardest thing for a Duggarling to deal with.  What DOES make a good photo?  It's not just the rule of thirds, and understanding lighting, it's about so much more. 

And you have to be able to back up ideas, and have the academic work behind it too.  Someone can be the best photographer/painter of their generation, but if they can't explain their ideas, and demonstrate the research, and write the essays, they're not coming out with a good degree.  This means exploring work that is uncomfortable, or horrible, or challenging, and learning all kinds of things.

Then, a good institution will be expecting work experience and dealing with clients too - there is so much dealing with people/business plans/budgeting etc as a working artist that is important too.  That hypothetical best painter of a generation may never have a career, because they can't market themselves, whereas the person who takes photos everyone thinks are blah could make a ton of money because they are fantastic at selling themselves, finding their niche etc.

Disclaimer:  of course there are bad courses out there, but a fine art degree isn't an easy option. 

Disclaimer:  of COURSE I am not saying no Duggar could do it, just that it would be hard.