Joy & Austin 15: Standing for the Fetus

[calimojo]

I am in the minority on this issue.  While I doubt she conceived or even had sex before the wedding, I do think that Joy, along with probably most of the couples, (except perhaps joe and kendra who seem overwhelmingly earnest), managed to find some alone time, even if it was just for a few minutes.  With as checked out as Michelle is, and with JB busy planning his next long con,  I see the supervisory standards not being as tightly enforced. 

So, just to be clear: 

• Do I think they conceived before marriage?  Most likely not
• Do I think they had sex before marriage? Probably not
• Do I think the possibility exists that they had alone time, and perhaps even had some more physical contact that we were led to believe?  Yes,  I do.  In fact, going out on a limb, I think there is a strong possibility they get more privacy than we are allowed to know about. 

Why do we all acknowledge that they often misrepresent their reality, tightly control their image, etc, and yet we still buy into this idea that each courting couple honestly makes it from courtship to marriage without even 1 minute of being alone?  They aren't going to show that on the TV show obviously, because their bread is buttered by appearing to be holier, more righteous and godly than the rest of us, but I think we are being played. 

No way did Ben live there and he and Jessa, smart as she is, never got alone time? 

No way, was Jeremy going to bow down to JB in all things re: courtship rules and Jinger made it very clear that she aligned with Jeremy, even before marriage, and from the body language or Joy and Austin and the fact that Austin has been hanging around the Duggars for years,  I see it as being very likely that they had some private time, either because it was allowed or because they managed to sneak it in.  I am not sure about Jill and Derick. 

I think it is very naive thinking to assume that they had NO contact, just because that is the image that the Duggar brand wants us to have.

Early on, I thought there might be a possibility that Joy conceived prior to the marriage, but honestly, if that were true, I sort of see that they would be using this as more fodder for their extremist pro-life stance.  I think they would spin that to show that even though they sinned, they are right with Jesus because they never considered termination.  I think most of their followers would totally accept this and praise Austin and Joy for doing the right thing, and they would be forgiven because this brand of Christianity feels superior when they 'grant' forgiveness on to the sinners.   

But, since this hasn't happened, and it appears as if Joy's bump, while big, is starting to normalize as the pregnancy continues,  I am fairly convinced she got pregnant shortly after the honeymoon. 

[nst]

not to mention all those times Joy was alone driving to and from Austin as well as that time in the airport when meeting Jeremy she was alone. 

 

[VelociRapture]

10 hours ago, nst said:

not to mention all those times Joy was alone driving to and from Austin as well as that time in the airport when meeting Jeremy she was alone. 

 

Again, Joy was likely being filmed. So either crew members were there to film her or they placed a camera on the dashboard that was filming her. Either way, if it was discovered that she’d disappeared off camera for an extended period of time she would have to explain that. So I don’t think evidence of her driving around alone is really indicative of anything. 

 

10 hours ago, calimojo said:

I am in the minority on this issue.  While I doubt she conceived or even had sex before the wedding, I do think that Joy, along with probably most of the couples, (except perhaps joe and kendra who seem overwhelmingly earnest), managed to find some alone time, even if it was just for a few minutes.  With as checked out as Michelle is, and with JB busy planning his next long con,  I see the supervisory standards not being as tightly enforced. 

So, just to be clear: 

• Do I think they conceived before marriage?  Most likely not
• Do I think they had sex before marriage? Probably not
• Do I think the possibility exists that they had alone time, and perhaps even had some more physical contact that we were led to believe?  Yes,  I do.  In fact, going out on a limb, I think there is a strong possibility they get more privacy than we are allowed to know about. 

Why do we all acknowledge that they often misrepresent their reality, tightly control their image, etc, and yet we still buy into this idea that each courting couple honestly makes it from courtship to marriage without even 1 minute of being alone?  They aren't going to show that on the TV show obviously, because their bread is buttered by appearing to be holier, more righteous and godly than the rest of us, but I think we are being played. 

No way did Ben live there and he and Jessa, smart as she is, never got alone time? 

No way, was Jeremy going to bow down to JB in all things re: courtship rules and Jinger made it very clear that she aligned with Jeremy, even before marriage, and from the body language or Joy and Austin and the fact that Austin has been hanging around the Duggars for years,  I see it as being very likely that they had some private time, either because it was allowed or because they managed to sneak it in.  I am not sure about Jill and Derick. 

I think it is very naive thinking to assume that they had NO contact, just because that is the image that the Duggar brand wants us to have.

Early on, I thought there might be a possibility that Joy conceived prior to the marriage, but honestly, if that were true, I sort of see that they would be using this as more fodder for their extremist pro-life stance.  I think they would spin that to show that even though they sinned, they are right with Jesus because they never considered termination.  I think most of their followers would totally accept this and praise Austin and Joy for doing the right thing, and they would be forgiven because this brand of Christianity feels superior when they 'grant' forgiveness on to the sinners.   

But, since this hasn't happened, and it appears as if Joy's bump, while big, is starting to normalize as the pregnancy continues,  I am fairly convinced she got pregnant shortly after the honeymoon. 

I think it’s possible they’re allowed more time “alone” than we’re told about. It wouldn’t surprise me if the Duggars are closer to the way the Bateses run things than we realize - like allowing couples time to talk privately while still being fully in view.

As for Joy’s pregnancy, the Instagram post I mentioned pretty much killed rumors that she was pregnant before or right after the wedding. She likely conceived just under or right around a month after they got married. Based off that post, she’s probably 20 weeks (halfway through) right now.

[Lurky]

I find it hilarious that people think that when Joy is the only one in shot in a TV show, she's "by herself".  Drones are not good enough to record at a distance, people!   If something is shown on TV, unless it's a carcam, or at a push, someone sitting in their room talking to a camera, there has to be at least one person with them - even moreso in reality tv!

It's like in Catfish, where there are always the incomprehensible shots of Max filming Nev while sitting next to him - of course there's a crew filming them, and sometimes cameracrew filming the person filming Max filming Nev!

[TheMustardCardigan]

On the subject of what Duggars do with their hair as brides... When I get married, I'm sure I will have my hair all down or at least half up, half down. I know that certain dresses look better with updos, but I just think my face looks better with my hair around it, and I like my hair-- I feel like updos mostly hide your hair rather than showcase it. So definitely no snark from me on the Duggars' simple bridal hairstyles. I also think it goes to wanting to look like yourself on your wedding day... I know a girl who's going to wear her glasses on her upcoming wedding day, for example, because she never wears contacts in her daily life anyway. While I personally would never make that choice, I get it.

 

[Fascinated]

I don’t think there’s any way in hell that Joy and Austin had sex before they married, and I doubt that they would even have kissed.  I do hope they had some alone time and it would be even better if it was approved by their parents. Maybe they snuck in some front hugs but, come on, there’s no way that Joy wasn’t going to present Austin with what every fundie guy deserves/requires on his wedding day: a maiden as pure as the driven snow.  I’m not buying it.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

11 hours ago, calimojo said:

I am in the minority on this issue.  While I doubt she conceived or even had sex before the wedding, I do think that Joy, along with probably most of the couples, (except perhaps joe and kendra who seem overwhelmingly earnest), managed to find some alone time, even if it was just for a few minutes.  With as checked out as Michelle is, and with JB busy planning his next long con,  I see the supervisory standards not being as tightly enforced. 

Snip. 

Why do we all acknowledge that they often misrepresent their reality, tightly control their image, etc, and yet we still buy into this idea that each courting couple honestly makes it from courtship to marriage without even 1 minute of being alone?  They aren't going to show that on the TV show obviously, because their bread is buttered by appearing to be holier, more righteous and godly than the rest of us, but I think we are being played. 

Snip

I've said this time and time again, that was NOT JoStin's 1st kiss, they both knew what they were doing. Did they have sex befoe they were married, I'd be more shocked if they did than if they didn't. Do I think there was some serious necking going on? Oh hell yeah.  JinJer as well, I do think Jill had her 1st kiss on that alter, I'm not so sure about Jessa & Ben but knowing how holier than thou she used to be I do think she waited as well.  I'm not so sure about Joken yet, I need to see more of them together, but with as young as Kendra is I can see them having waited for more than a quick peck here and there.

[singsingsing]

32 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I've said this time and time again, that was NOT JoStin's 1st kiss, they both knew what they were doing. Did they have sex befoe they were married, I'd be more shocked if they did than if they didn't. Do I think there was some serious necking going on? Oh hell yeah.  JinJer as well, I do think Jill had her 1st kiss on that alter, I'm not so sure about Jessa & Ben but knowing how holier than thou she used to be I do think she waited as well.  I'm not so sure about Joken yet, I need to see more of them together, but with as young as Kendra is I can see them having waited for more than a quick peck here and there.

Just so everyone's clear, this is your own fantasy. There's literally not a shred of evidence that any of these couples kissed before marriage, and several of them explicitly stated that they were saving their first kiss for marriage, they were excited for the first kiss, nervous, how wonderful it was to wait, etc. You're suggesting that they not only had multiple opportunities for kissing and 'serious necking' to occur, but that they blatantly and casually lied to the world about it. While possible, what you're suggesting is extremely unlikely and utterly without foundation.

[Screamapillar]

First kisses aren't rocket science. You just put your lips together. Just because they didn't look super awkward when they kissed at the alter doesn't mean it wasn't their first kiss.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

18 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Just so everyone's clear, this is your own fantasy. There's literally not a shred of evidence that any of these couples kissed before marriage, and several of them explicitly stated that they were saving their first kiss for marriage, they were excited for the first kiss, nervous, how wonderful it was to wait, etc. You're suggesting that they not only had multiple opportunities for kissing and 'serious necking' to occur, but that they blatantly and casually lied to the world about it. While possible, what you're suggesting is extremely unlikely and utterly without foundation.

Sorry but seeing how WELL they kissed, usually very 1st kisses are much sloppier than that. I only think JinJer & JoStin kissed before they married, we saw ON the show that Joy was allowed to travel ALONE, she  flew from WI to TX by herself.  Why is it so hard to believe she and Austin were able to sneak off for a few kisses prior to walking down the aisle? JB & M have clearly given up any  and all pretense of minding their kids if they can't be bothered with the littles why would they care about the older ones. Rememer Jill raised Joy and Jill was in SCA while Joy & Austin were courtin.

[singsingsing]

10 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I only think JinJer & JoStin kissed before they married, we saw ON the show that Joy was allowed to travel ALONE, she  flew from WI to TX by herself.  Why is it so hard to believe she and Austin were able to sneak off for a few kisses prior to walking down the aisle?

I guess if you believe that Joy went somewhere or did something alone because you saw it on the show, you'll believe anything.

[allthegoodnamesrgone]

10 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

I guess if you believe that Joy went somewhere or did something alone because you saw it on the show, you'll believe anything.

Not sure why you are being so belligerent over MY OPINION!  People run though here saying everything we see is fake, but refuse to believe that they could kiss before marriage because they say they don't? Which is its? 

Fine you disagree with me no need to be hostile just say, I disagree, and say why, or not, but don't call me (or anyone else) delusional and stupid, because MY OPINION is different than yours, it won't change my mind it just pisses me off.

[Feministe9000]

Omg

Okay so I'm a little worried about saying anything because I'm still in the prayer closet,  and some of you can be a little over zealous (don't freak out! you know who you are and you know it's true) with this stuff and i've been railed before on here for things I've said, so here goes.....

No need to shit all over someone's opinion, I agree with that @allthegoodnamesrgone, so in my "opinion", I think that except for the fact that we will literally never, ever know what their actual lives are like, what they have and have not done (barring any scandals, leaks or other things of that nature), this topic , as with many other aspects of their lives that we speculate on,  we will never know if any of the courting couples kissed before marriage, unless someone decides to "unburden their hearts of their pre-marital sin!!!"  (aka Zach and Whitney Bates)

I also think that some couples are just better at it naturally than others, i'm sure they've received advice from many resources, friends, other boys, girls who have been married, made out on the back of their hands, probably read Christian pre-marriage kissing books for all we know! And I would NOT be surprised if those were a thing at all.

So in terms of some of them looking less/more awkward at their wedding kissing than others, yes it is POSSIBLE they somehow snuck in a couple kisses here and there, but it is also very POSSIBLE they obsessed over it, read about it, talked about it with other fundies who have done it, and were prepared to not look awkward, and made an active effort to do so.

Phew.

 

[Hisey]

On 10/13/2017 at 8:54 AM, JDuggs said:

Well the original poster said almost to the point of neglect, not neglect/abuse.  I think the neglect could possibly mean letting the child watch hours of TV rather than bringing her to the park, reading, setting up play dates, etc. Maybe not enough cause to bring in CPS.

MAYBE not enough to call CPS? CPS would laugh at something like that. They are dealing with babies lying in their cribs for days, covered in poop. Or 8 year olds living in run down drug houses with no food in the house. That kind of neglect. Even then the kid doesn't always get removed. 

[Carm_88]

My first kiss wasn't awkward at all. We just simply put our lips together and did what felt right. Maybe if he slobbered on me or tried for tongue, it may have been. Otherwise, wasn't at all awkward. 

[singsingsing]

14 minutes ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

Not sure why you are being so belligerent over MY OPINION!  People run though here saying everything we see is fake, but refuse to believe that they could kiss before marriage because they say they don't? Which is its? 

Fine you disagree with me no need to be hostile just say, I disagree, and say why, or not, but don't call me (or anyone else) delusional and stupid, because MY OPINION is different than yours, it won't change my mind it just pisses me off.

I didn't call you delusional or stupid. That's not what I meant by 'fantasy' - I meant that you've created these scenarios in your own mind, and now you're promoting them as fact, when in reality they're nothing but feelings and hunches, based on little to no evidence. That doesn't mean you're delusional, I also have feelings and hunches about various Duggars. If I post about them, I point out that I'm just speculating.

YOUR OPINION, when you post it on a discussion forum, is open to criticism. I do apologize for coming across as belligerent. I strongly disagree with your opinion and the claims you've made, but it was definitely not my intent to insult you.

[CharlieInCharge]

On 10/15/2017 at 12:21 AM, FecundFundieFundus said:

My stepmom actually corrected the officiant and said "I never promised to obey!" when they forgot to remove it from the vows.

When my husband and I got married we wanted 'Love, Honor and Cherish,' but we got 'Love, Honor and Obey.' I just rolled with it, but hubby sounds like he is asking a question in our wedding video. 

"I promise to love, honor and obeeeyyyy???? you?" I laugh at his face everytime I watch it. 

[Palimpsest]

Re. whether or not Joy saved her first kiss for marriage -  I SEVERELY want to down-vote everyone still discussing it out of sheer boredom!  (Note: I haven't.  Yet )  This debate was going on the last time I ventured into this thread.  I haven't gone back yet to see whether anything actually interesting was discussed during my absence.

However many times you say it, @allthegoodnamesrgone (and others who are fixated on various Duggars kissing or a whole lot more before marriage), doesn't make it:

• True,
• Likely, or even
• Interesting.

I take my hat off to people like @singsingsing and @VelociRapture who can still continue the discussion reasonably politely.

Why is it so impossible for some to believe that <name that brainwashed Duggar> was actually truthful about saving their first kiss for marriage?  It is one of the things that makes them feel so much more superior to the rest of the world, after all.   

And I honestly find the continued interest in prolonging the discussion ad infinitem really strange.  People disagree.  Endlessly beating a dead horse says more about you (general you) than it does about the Duggars.   

[SilverBeach]

I wish I gave one fuck about Joy's hair.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

MAYBE not enough to call CPS? CPS would laugh at something like that. They are dealing with babies lying in their cribs for days, covered in poop. Or 8 year olds living in run down drug houses with no food in the house. That kind of neglect. Even then the kid doesn't always get removed. 

I absolutely agree with this.  CPS is a crisis intervention program and only intervenes in cases of serious and life threatening abuse and neglect.  Serious and life-threatening are careful defined by both Federal and State legislation.  CPS has neither the capacity nor the budget to get involved with cases of somewhat less than optimal parenting.  Calling to report that "I think child watches too much TV and the parents are too distant" would be irresponsible and waste time and resources needed for genuine cases of abuse.

[VelociRapture]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Re. whether or not Joy saved her first kiss for marriage -  I SEVERELY want to down-vote everyone still discussing it out of sheer boredom!  (Note: I haven't.  Yet )  This debate was going on the last time I ventured into this thread.  I haven't gone back yet to see whether anything actually interesting was discussed during my absence.

However many times you say it, @allthegoodnamesrgone (and others who are fixated on various Duggars kissing or a whole lot more before marriage), doesn't make it:

• True,
• Likely, or even
• Interesting.

I take my hat off to people like @singsingsing and @VelociRapture who can still continue the discussion reasonably politely.

Why is it so impossible for some to believe that <name that brainwashed Duggar> was actually truthful about saving their first kiss for marriage?  It is one of the things that makes them feel so much more superior to the rest of the world, after all.   

And I honestly find the continued interest in prolonging the discussion ad infinitem really strange.  People disagree.  Endlessly beating a dead horse says more about you (general you) than it does about the Duggars.   

Aw shucks! Thanks! To be fair though, this conversation is a downright delight compared to other threads right now. 

[Snarkle Motion]

3 hours ago, allthegoodnamesrgone said:

I've said this time and time again, that was NOT JoStin's 1st kiss, they both knew what they were doing. Did they have sex befoe they were married, I'd be more shocked if they did than if they didn't. Do I think there was some serious necking going on? Oh hell yeah.  JinJer as well, I do think Jill had her 1st kiss on that alter, I'm not so sure about Jessa & Ben but knowing how holier than thou she used to be I do think she waited as well.  I'm not so sure about Joken yet, I need to see more of them together, but with as young as Kendra is I can see them having waited for more than a quick peck here and there.

This is just my own snarky speculation, but I also think they kissed before (who knows about more). It's actually the most recent people video of their first look that I see the most evidence. There is a moment about 40 seconds in before Joy says "I love you" where Austin leans in and looks like he's going to kiss her and then seems to remember and stops. Clearly this isn't proof of anything but reading the body language to me suggests that they may have kissed.

Also it kind of creeped me out when he says she smells good. It was just super awkward.

[Feministe9000]

2 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

Re. whether or not Joy saved her first kiss for marriage -  I SEVERELY want to down-vote everyone still discussing it out of sheer boredom!  (Note: I haven't.  Yet )  This debate was going on the last time I ventured into this thread.  I haven't gone back yet to see whether anything actually interesting was discussed during my absence.

However many times you say it, @allthegoodnamesrgone (and others who are fixated on various Duggars kissing or a whole lot more before marriage), doesn't make it:

• True,
• Likely, or even
• Interesting.

I take my hat off to people like @singsingsing and @VelociRapture who can still continue the discussion reasonably politely.

Why is it so impossible for some to believe that <name that brainwashed Duggar> was actually truthful about saving their first kiss for marriage?  It is one of the things that makes them feel so much more superior to the rest of the world, after all.   

And I honestly find the continued interest in prolonging the discussion ad infinitem really strange.  People disagree.  Endlessly beating a dead horse says more about you (general you) than it does about the Duggars.   

THANK YOUUUUUUUUUUUU

[IamNIKE]

1 hour ago, Snarkle Motion said:

Also it kind of creeped me out when he says she smells good. It was just super awkward.

Now I'm second guessing all the times I tell Mr. Nike he smells good. I say it a lot....but maybe there's hope for me....was it the way that he said it or that he said it at all?! hahaha

[IamNIKE]

4 hours ago, singsingsing said:

I guess if you believe that Joy went somewhere or did something alone because you saw it on the show, you'll believe anything.

I'm in no, way shape, or form lining up to just blindly drink any Kool-Aid....I'm just saying that if she is unsupervised at any point, she can probably sneak off. I've seen people do far more with much less freedom. And there's NO way she can be 100% supervised at all times.