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one of the podcasts I listen to did an episode on Jinger/the Duggars/IBLP today. The podcast is How to Be Fine; it used to be by the book where they lived by a different self help book for 2 weeks. They expanded recently to cover more ground.

Today's episode covers Jinger https://www.stitcher.com/show/by-the-book/episode/the-duggars-and-the-iblp-300642485

Their description: On this episode of How to Be Fine, Kristen and Jolenta dive into the Duggar Family and their involvement in the religious cult the Institute of Basic Life Principles. The ladies break down the revelations that Jinger Duggar reveals in her bestselling book Become Free Indeed: My Story of Disentangling Faith from Fear, and the shame and social anxiety she experienced growing up

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If anyone is interested, Jenny Flanders read Jinger’s book and no surprise, she enjoyed it and agreed with much of it. Like many other fundies have. What’s funny is Jenny actually listed all the great things she learned from IBLP in the 80s even though she never really joined the cult and was shamed for wearing jeans to a seminar. It’s funny how so many fundies went to his seminars but never actually joined the cult. Even though a lot of their beliefs overlapped. 
 

https://lovinglifeathome.com/2023/03/07/on-becoming-free-indeed/

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Yeah I think Gothard has had a huge impact just because there were so many people who just went to his big seminars in the 80s. My husband's parents, who were nominal Christians at best, went to one of his seminars. I highly doubt they followed any of his principles in any capacity, but it does make you wonder what bits and pieces seeped into "regular" Christian life.

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On 3/18/2023 at 9:50 AM, neuroticcat said:

 it does make you wonder what bits and pieces seeped into "regular" Christian life.

I mean, purity culture runs through it everywhere 

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On 3/19/2023 at 1:51 PM, woonaluna said:

I mean, purity culture runs through it everywhere 

That's so true. I wonder what could be pinpointed as the "start" of purity culture in its current form that we talk about here. Gothard? Were there people shilling this before him? I think of Josh Harris as the beginning, but obviously he was homeschooled, so it was handed to him. Were the Harrises with Gothard? 

I got a little bit of purity culture via Focus on the Family and things like Silver Ring Thing, but I think I was in my twenties before it hit its heyday so missed most of it.

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6 minutes ago, neuroticcat said:

 

That's so true. I wonder what could be pinpointed as the "start" of purity culture in its current form that we talk about here. Gothard? Were there people shilling this before him? I think of Josh Harris as the beginning, but obviously he was homeschooled, so it was handed to him. Were the Harrises with Gothard? 

I got a little bit of purity culture via Focus on the Family and things like Silver Ring Thing, but I think I was in my twenties before it hit its heyday so missed most of it.

I was only born in 82 so I am unsure but the 1960s was kind of like a sexual awakening for some people. Free love and the birth control pill were around. And people started to embrace sex outside of marriage in a more open way. Sex outside of marriage has always been a thing. It was just more taboo before the 60s. I wouldn’t be surprised if focus on the family, Gothard, and Reagan were all just a big cultural reaction against the free love and liberation of women being sexual outside of wifely duties. 

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4 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

I was only born in 82 so I am unsure but the 1960s was kind of like a sexual awakening for some people. Free love and the birth control pill were around. And people started to embrace sex outside of marriage in a more open way. Sex outside of marriage has always been a thing. It was just more taboo before the 60s. I wouldn’t be surprised if focus on the family, Gothard, and Reagan were all just a big cultural reaction against the free love and liberation of women being sexual outside of wifely duties. 

Yes, according to Jinger’s book this is the origin. I think there’s also racism involved because that time period coincides with civil rights and integration, meaning people who opposed interracial marriage and integrated schools started pushing to homeschool so their white kids wouldn’t be exposed to the progressive world.

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20 hours ago, neuroticcat said:

 

That's so true. I wonder what could be pinpointed as the "start" of purity culture in its current form that we talk about here. Gothard? Were there people shilling this before him? I think of Josh Harris as the beginning, but obviously he was homeschooled, so it was handed to him. Were the Harrises with Gothard? 

I got a little bit of purity culture via Focus on the Family and things like Silver Ring Thing, but I think I was in my twenties before it hit its heyday so missed most of it.

It's been a thing for a lo-o-o-ong time. I wrote a paper on it so, here's two paragraphs of many:

"The traditional views of western culture about sexuality and the body are “inevitably associated with the rise of Christianity” (Goldhill ix). In the early days of Christianity, the renunciation of a sexual relationship was viewed as the purposeful openness to an individual relationship with God (Blank 133). The apologist Athenagoraus wrote “Remaining in virginity and in the state of a eunuch brings one nearer to God” (Brown 66). A body closed to the distractions of sex and childbirth was more open to communication with the divine (Blank 134). Jews and pagans agreed with Christians that “abstinence from sexual activity, especially virginity, made the human body a more appropriate vehicle to receive divine inspiration” (Brown 67). Ambrose taught that by closing one’s body to sexual activity, the mind, heart, and hands of the virgin were open to the Scriptures, to Christ, and to the poor (Brown 363).

Virginity and celibacy were a well-established feature of most regions of the Christian world by 300 (Brown 202) and by 400, were considered dominant virtues of a Christian age (Brown xxxii). Monastics, martyrs, and virgins were viewed as saintly because of their achievement of this higher calling (Lelwica 85). In the twelfth century, celibacy became a requirement for church clergy (Blank 149). Becoming a priest, monk, or nun was a vocation that included an education (Blank 148), which raised one’s social status, and a life of celibacy provided a way to attain a raised status in the resurrection (Bynum 110). The Hali Meidhad, a thirteen century text, that praised virginity over marriage, advised “Virginity is the blossom which, if it is once completely cut off, will never grow again” (Blank 151)." That metaphor would fit right in the abstinence only lectures of today.

Goldhill, Simon. Foucault's Virginity: Ancient Erotic Fiction and the History of Sexuality. NewYork: Cambridge University Press, 1995. Print

Blank, Hanne. Virgin: The Untouched History. New York: Bloomsbury USA, 2007. Print.

Brown, Peter. The Body & Society: Men, Women, and Sexual Renunciation in Early Christianity. New York: Columbia University Press, 2008. Print.

Lelwica, Michelle Mary. Starving for Salvation: The Spiritual Dimentions of Eating Disorders among American Girls and Women. New York: Oxford University Press, 1999. 67-124. Print

Edited by nolongerIFBx
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Religion and purity (especially the abrahamic faiths) have always been linked. What I find crazy though is how at one point we were definitely not as obsessed with it. After the 60s, when religion started to loose its grip on people’s everyday lives. Into the 90s. I mean we had teen magazines with extensive sex education parts, even fully naked pictures of both sexes (between 16 and 21) to show the diversity in bodies. I don’t think that’s still possible today. We still let young children roam naked at the pool/beach/garden. And don’t have a problem with topless women in those places. Saunas are naked as well. But there is a trend to scale back on the showing a lot of skin as I experienced it growing up. Even though religion has only lost more ground. Almost no one attending a normal church (RC or Protestant) has the feeling the church or God has a say in their recreational life or anything else for that matter. Most wouldn’t even firmly say they believe in the Christian God or Jesus or resurrection or heaven.

Interestingly enough, the age for first sexual experiences hasn’t changed much in comparison to the “wild” 90s. Neither the fact that most are in long term, monogamous relationships. 

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59 minutes ago, just_ordinary said:

Religion and purity (especially the abrahamic faiths) have always been linked. What I find crazy though is how at one point we were definitely not as obsessed with it. After the 60s, when religion started to loose its grip on people’s everyday lives. Into the 90s. I mean we had teen magazines with extensive sex education parts, even fully naked pictures of both sexes (between 16 and 21) to show the diversity in bodies. I don’t think that’s still possible today. We still let young children roam naked at the pool/beach/garden. And don’t have a problem with topless women in those places. Saunas are naked as well. But there is a trend to scale back on the showing a lot of skin as I experienced it growing up. Even though religion has only lost more ground. Almost no one attending a normal church (RC or Protestant) has the feeling the church or God has a say in their recreational life or anything else for that matter. Most wouldn’t even firmly say they believe in the Christian God or Jesus or resurrection or heaven.

Interestingly enough, the age for first sexual experiences hasn’t changed much in comparison to the “wild” 90s. Neither the fact that most are in long term, monogamous relationships. 

Are you in the US? Because I believe that in the US, the age of first sexual experience has gone up for both sexes since the 90s. 

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  Good old St. Paul said it was better to marry than to burn. Purity culture and misogyny generally have clear roots in both the Old and New Testaments. It waxes and wanes in response to other aspects of the culture, but the Bible is a very deep well for anyone who thirsts to control the sex lives of others. 

Edited by Bastet
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9 hours ago, just_ordinary said:

Religion and purity (especially the abrahamic faiths) have always been linked. What I find crazy though is how at one point we were definitely not as obsessed with it. After the 60s, when religion started to loose its grip on people’s everyday lives. Into the 90s. I mean we had teen magazines with extensive sex education parts, even fully naked pictures of both sexes (between 16 and 21) to show the diversity in bodies. I don’t think that’s still possible today. 

A recent issue of Girlfriend Magazine (average readership <14) has a “guide to buying your first vibrator”. I’ve got an 11 year old and there’s lots of discussions in parenting groups about how to talk to your kids about porn and consent and explicit pics on Snapchat etc. As a consumer (& writer) of YA fiction I’ll also say there’s a lot of sexual content in your average high school library. Plus LGBTQIA+ awareness has led to more books & tv shows for teens with gay sex, which I think was lacking in the 90s. You’ve got popular current teen TV shows like Sex Education and Heartbreak High (which is theoretically a reboot of a 90s show although the stories and characters are totally different), arguably more graphic than Dawsons Creek or 90210, so I don’t really think society as a whole is more prudish than the 90s, although of course there are going to be conservative areas.

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Certainly the development of social media has allowed like minded people to gather in cyberspace. So those of the purity culture mind know there are people like them all over the world so they feel more comfortable in their beliefs. The culture was always present, but we were not as aware of it until social media. Just like the MAGA base. We didn’t realize there were so many hard core Trumpers but they were able to flourish because of the internet and now here we are. 

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On 3/22/2023 at 10:51 PM, JermajestyDuggar said:

Are you in the US? Because I believe that in the US, the age of first sexual experience has gone up for both sexes since the 90s. 

No, I am not.

On 3/23/2023 at 7:35 AM, Smee said:

A recent issue of Girlfriend Magazine (average readership <14) has a “guide to buying your first vibrator”. I’ve got an 11 year old and there’s lots of discussions in parenting groups about how to talk to your kids about porn and consent and explicit pics on Snapchat etc. As a consumer (& writer) of YA fiction I’ll also say there’s a lot of sexual content in your average high school library. Plus LGBTQIA+ awareness has led to more books & tv shows for teens with gay sex, which I think was lacking in the 90s. You’ve got popular current teen TV shows like Sex Education and Heartbreak High (which is theoretically a reboot of a 90s show although the stories and characters are totally different), arguably more graphic than Dawsons Creek or 90210, so I don’t really think society as a whole is more prudish than the 90s, although of course there are going to be conservative areas.

Good point. I am not sure Sex Education is aimed at young teens though? I would have thought more like 16+. 
I think the difference (subjective I might be mistaken) is also in the parental attitude. Porn and explicit pictures of people you know (often shared without consent) is different than parents being aware of explicit fotos in a teen magazine aimed at 10-14 year olds. One is something to have a conversation about. To make your children be able to make responsible choices and be save. The other is being fine with parts of the sexual education of your children being done this way. I don’t think many parents ever read our magazines. But we also grew up with sleepovers and playing together with closed doors or somewhere outside (city like countryside). Having mixed sleepovers, even sharing the same mattress was also not unusual. And surprise, it didn’t lead to anything sexual if you weren’t a couple- because why should it?

I think it’s probably hard to find a balance between the new resources and development and the normal stuff like closed doors.

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On 3/22/2023 at 4:51 PM, just_ordinary said:

Religion and purity (especially the abrahamic faiths) have always been linked. What I find crazy though is how at one point we were definitely not as obsessed with it. After the 60s, when religion started to loose its grip on people’s everyday lives. Into the 90s. I mean we had teen magazines with extensive sex education parts, even fully naked pictures of both sexes (between 16 and 21) to show the diversity in bodies. I don’t think that’s still possible today. We still let young children roam naked at the pool/beach/garden. And don’t have a problem with topless women in those places. Saunas are naked as well. But there is a trend to scale back on the showing a lot of skin as I experienced it growing up. Even though religion has only lost more ground. Almost no one attending a normal church (RC or Protestant) has the feeling the church or God has a say in their recreational life or anything else for that matter. Most wouldn’t even firmly say they believe in the Christian God or Jesus or resurrection or heaven.

Interestingly enough, the age for first sexual experiences hasn’t changed much in comparison to the “wild” 90s. Neither the fact that most are in long term, monogamous relationships. 

My history teacher's brain thought... WELL sure people weren't obcessed with purity back in the days. The Catholic Church only truly enforced priest celibacy after the 1123 Lateran Council. 🤣 I think my brain is not on the same timeline as most people lately. This semester is going by so fast.

Purity was certainly present in the scriptures, and part of the doctrine of early Christians, but in the centuries of late antiquity and early middle-ages were very instable times. There was a lot of laissez-faire  regarding married church officials and even offpsrings. Especially after the fall of the Roman state, it was almost impossible for the church authorities to really police and control the matrimonial statuses of all the priest, deacons or monks, dispersed across Europe.

And this is the official decree enforcing celibacy. Let's not talk about centuries of mistresses and (not-so) hidden children amongst the Catholic Church.

Edited by Vivi_music
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On 3/18/2023 at 12:50 PM, neuroticcat said:

Yeah I think Gothard has had a huge impact just because there were so many people who just went to his big seminars in the 80s. My husband's parents, who were nominal Christians at best, went to one of his seminars. I highly doubt they followed any of his principles in any capacity, but it does make you wonder what bits and pieces seeped into "regular" Christian life.

My parents went to his seminars in the 70s (it wasn't IBLP yet - I think it was called Institute in Basic Youth Conflicts?) and I can absolutely say that even though we were never softly-curly-haired, navy-skirt-and-white-button-down-wearing members of the organization, there was a LOT of Gothard's poison that seeped into our upbringing. There was the obsession with modesty, the notion that children need to obey their parents until they're married (and that there is absolutely no situation in which someone should marry someone of which their parents do not wholeheartedly approve - so basically, you're screwed for life if you have controlling parents) and that if a teen/young adult is living a sinful life (going against their parents' wishes in any way) they can and should expect God to kill them in a car crash or something to end the disobedience. I was actually told by my mother that I needed to close the curtains or dress in the pitch dark because if someone on the road saw my body through the window and decided to come back and rape me, I would share in that blame because I "defrauded." That line of reasoning is 100% Gothard. (Also, when we had that conversation - I was ELEVEN.) My parents backed away from some of it later on but as the oldest, I got the worst of it.

On 3/21/2023 at 1:07 PM, neuroticcat said:

 

That's so true. I wonder what could be pinpointed as the "start" of purity culture in its current form that we talk about here. Gothard? Were there people shilling this before him? I think of Josh Harris as the beginning, but obviously he was homeschooled, so it was handed to him. Were the Harrises with Gothard? 

Sheila Wray Gregoire (her blog used to be called Love Honor and Vacuum but I think it's Bare Marriage now) did a podcast last week with her daughter, who I think is in her early 30s, about purity/modesty culture messages and how damaging they are. Sheila's take on it was that it really wasn't talked about so much in the 80s when she was coming of age, but her poor daughter is still dealing with issues stemming from modesty articles in Brio magazine (and the books those were excerpted from) and everyone's preoccupation with policing girls' bodies during her adolescence. According to them, this started to be a real movement in the late 90s and early 2000s (the Harris brothers' Modesty Survey came out in 2007) but my parents were overly concerned about my modesty in the 80s - I was literally never allowed to wear a skirt shorter than my knees, even as a young child, and I was definitely taught by the early 90s in church that I needed to cover up "because boys can't help it" from people who WERE at least Gothard-adjacent. By the early 2000s all of evangelicalism had caught that fever.

Edited by Bethy
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I grew up in the 80s and 90s.  We were taught that the Bible says sex before marriage was a sin. Looking back I definitely had the impression that this was the big one, the biggest no no you could possibly do.  I thought of it as the worst possible sin, which is so absolutely absurd now!  It’s not even anything bad!!  There are a million worse things I would hope my teen children wouldn’t do other than have sex 😂 That doesn’t even make my list!!  But at the time I took it so seriously. 
 

I remember being at my grandparents house and finding an old booklet from the 50s that they had that was for teens and was all about how to live righteously for God. It said in no uncertain terms that if you felt you could not restrain you must get married immediately to avoid sinning.  So I never grew up thinking that  this was some sort of new concept (purity culture) I simply believed that this was 100% Biblical truth from day 1 of creation. 
 

As an atheist now these concepts really enrage me, especially as I see young people my children’s ages (19 & 21) getting married for the same reasons…and then they are told they can never divorce because that’s big sin number 2. You’re stuck with someone for life just because at 18 you wanted to do a completely normal natural thing 🙄

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9 hours ago, Travelfan said:

I grew up in the 80s and 90s.  We were taught that the Bible says sex before marriage was a sin. Looking back I definitely had the impression that this was the big one, the biggest no no you could possibly do.  I thought of it as the worst possible sin, which is so absolutely absurd now!  It’s not even anything bad!!  There are a million worse things I would hope my teen children wouldn’t do other than have sex 😂 That doesn’t even make my list!!  But at the time I took it so seriously. 

90s and early 00s here (in Aus) and YES this is what it was. I knew there were other sins, and in theory they were all bad, but there was this not-necessarily-spoken idea that sexual sin was “the worst”.

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Isn’t it crazy that soooo much pressure is placed on 18-20-ish year olds to 1) control their natural hormonal urges and 2) select the perfect marriage partner for.the.rest.of.your.entire.frickin.life. No do-overs!!!! 

Really, it’s insane when you think about it. I was raised Catholic and premarital sex was taught to be a sin, as was divorce. I had plenty of sex before marriage and there was always a bit of guilt. When I had trouble conceiving in my 30s, I actually believed God was punishing me for the premarital sex. Oh how I wish I could go back and re-educate my 30 year old self! 

I did not know hardly any divorced people growing up. Over the decades of being an adult, I was astounded to learn how many people do get divorced and how common premarital sex is! And that some people aren’t raised with the horrific restraints of religion! 

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I have friends who are catholic who go to confession a few times a year and just stopped confessing the premarital sex.  Their view was they aren't sorry about it so no repentance is real and they're not going to bother pretending.  I say good for them!

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Jinger is yet again being interviewed by Allie Beth Stuckey. Tell me you’re still fundie without telling me you’re still fundie 🙄

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On 3/25/2023 at 9:16 AM, Travelfan said:

I grew up in the 80s and 90s.  We were taught that the Bible says sex before marriage was a sin. Looking back I definitely had the impression that this was the big one, the biggest no no you could possibly do.

In my fundie-lite church growing up this was absolutely true. You could do all sorts of things wrong and they could get forgiven and overlooked, but if you had sex before marriage, you were ruined. Like, for life. Leadership position in church? Forget about it - you got your college girlfriend pregnant and "had to" get married. Doesn't matter that you're still together and raising your family. You had sex before marriage so God can never, ever use you.

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This guy is married to Patience Pennington. I hate his way of thinking. It’s victim blaming. I personally wouldn’t have a problem if Jinger felt she was a victim of Gothard and I would totally understand her being bitter. Telling people that there’s only one right way to feel about being spiritually abused is fucked up. But this is coming from a guy who has admitting to praying away same sex attraction. So it seems obvious to me he’s been spiritually abused into thinking he can pray his SSA away. And probably can’t see that. 

65DA8AD3-0866-4046-A078-E5ED333B9A62.jpeg

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23 minutes ago, JermajestyDuggar said:

This guy is married to Patience Pennington. I hate his way of thinking. It’s victim blaming.

I think I remember him - isn’t he the one who claims to have prayed the gay away? Poor guy must be so deeply conflicted to make him double down so hard on it.

ETA: Oops, sorry, missed that part of your post. I shouldn’t reply when it’s past my bedtime. Sorry!

Edited by Nothing if not critical
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