Anna and the M-kids, Part 8

[BlessaYourHeart]

I have a feeling Josh may have quite severe emotional/mental health problems. Hell who wouldn't growing up in that environment. He was never given a choice in what to believe in life and was indoctrinated with awful and wrong doctrine since the moment he was born. 

I think the cheating and Ashley madison and porn stuff may have been a case of Josh being confused and lost in his life not knowing what to do because he's feeling one thing, indoctrinated with another and had a public profile he wanted to keep 'clean'. And there was no one for him to talk these feelings through with that would offer non judgemental and non biased advice. 

Im in no way excusing what he has done to Anna but I can't help but sympathise with him slightly as we have no idea what kind of emotional turmoil he was internalising 

[Denim Jumper]

8 hours ago, Carm_88 said:

And how much of was it understood by Anna. 

If I recall correctly, Anna didn't even know about sex until her mother talked to her it right before the wedding.  If she was kept that sheltered about appropriate, consensual intimacy, how much could she really understand about his history of "mild, inappropriate touching"?

[actuallyjessica]

If I recall correctly, Anna didn't even know about sex until her mother talked to her it right before the wedding.  If she was kept that sheltered about appropriate, consensual intimacy, how much could she really understand about his history of "mild, inappropriate touching"?

Exactly. This is what I reference every time someone says Anna knew. She had a child-like knowledge of sex --- minimal, how could she know what was appropriate and what was inappropriate?

She likely knew that Josh did something bad but he had been "fixed" and forgiven, so there would be no reason for her to not marry Josh.

He came from a family that was reaching notoriety for being a godly family, they had a stable income and a home. All great starters for a family you were marrying into.... or one would think so.

No one even knows for sure if Josh knew what he was doing and how wrong it was. He was still a child himself, from a very sheltered home. Doesn't make his actions or the effects right, though. It can be said with almost certainty that it their upbringings were not in sexually repressed and fundamentalist homes, the outcome for all would have been different.

But... they were, so it's not. It's sad all 'round. Sad for the victims of his molestations, sad for his wife, and sad for his children who are now currently suffering for their father's sins committed before some of them were even born.

They have all suffered through his actions as a child and as an adult - the latter of which he was absolutely aware of the reproductions.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

On 1/3/2017 at 1:01 PM, halcionne said:

Well the Medicaid part is confidential under HIPAA, so that = secret. And the only way to know someone's using welfare or food stamps is if you get a glimpse of their EBT card. Or if they tell you, of course.  

My point was that I think there are plenty of fundies who receive government aid, and they wouldn't advertise it.

Not being difficult, but have you lived in a small town? EVERYONE in Tontitown would be on the phone to the news if a Duggar swiped a  benefit card at Wal-mart of wherever!  I can believe a doctor's office or hospital wouldn't reveal it, but an underpaid supermarket cashier would be really, really tempted!! That's all I'm thinking. No way could they be anonymous In NW Arkansas. Someone would post it here if nothing else. Plus, as another poster said, it's a public waiting area.

You have to be REALLY poor to get that. Even selling one or two cars a month (and he likely does see more than that) would put them over the threshold.

I really doubt they'd EVER do EBT/food stamps. That would just be too visible

[ven]

Ehm daddy is a millionaire , they would never ever need to do that ... 

[Carm_88]

Yeah JB is keeping Josh and Anna plus their kids in money. Did they earn it on the show? Probably. 

[Denim Jumper]

12 hours ago, actuallyjessica said:

Exactly. This is what I reference every time someone says Anna knew. She had a child-like knowledge of sex --- minimal, how could she know what was appropriate and what was inappropriate?

She likely knew that Josh did something bad but he had been "fixed" and forgiven, so there would be no reason for her to not marry Josh.

He came from a family that was reaching notoriety for being a godly family, they had a stable income and a home. All great starters for a family you were marrying into.... or one would think so.

No one even knows for sure if Josh knew what he was doing and how wrong it was. He was still a child himself, from a very sheltered home. Doesn't make his actions or the effects right, though. It can be said with almost certainty that it their upbringings were not in sexually repressed and fundamentalist homes, the outcome for all would have been different.

But... they were, so it's not. It's sad all 'round. Sad for the victims of his molestations, sad for his wife, and sad for his children who are now currently suffering for their father's sins committed before some of them were even born.

They have all suffered through his actions as a child and as an adult - the latter of which he was absolutely aware of the reproductions.

I'd even go so far as to say I don't think JB&M really grasped the long term severity of Josh's actions. They were in an echo chamber of a church community who reassured them how common it was, and truly believed that Jesus would make it all better.  You know, I wouldn't even be surprised if they see the Ashley Madison debacle as an unrelated matter. 

[evolutionbaby]

On 1/3/2017 at 8:24 PM, Denim Jumper said:

If I recall correctly, Anna didn't even know about sex until her mother talked to her it right before the wedding.  If she was kept that sheltered about appropriate, consensual intimacy, how much could she really understand about his history of "mild, inappropriate touching"?

I understand that some people aren't given any education about sex, but wouldn't you get some kind of natural inclination about it or at least wonder how babies are made?

I grew up on a farm, seeing animals birthed quite regularly, so I knew about sex in detail from a pretty young age. So, I guess to me, it's something I've always had a seemingly inherent awareness about.

If you're not taught about sex, do you kind of get how the basics work, but not the nuances? Something like that?

I suppose though, I could see Anna not being aware that there are bad people who assault people sexually and not comprehending that her husband could do such a thing. If no one ever told you about such things why would you imagine such things.

[Shouldabeenacowboy]

10 hours ago, evolutionbaby said:

If you're not taught about sex, do you kind of get how the basics work, but not the nuances? Something like that?

The above exactly. I think that is's less about the mechanics of sex and more about the psychological aspect of consensus, appropriate sexual relationships, etc. Note: by appropriate I mean "between consenting adults", not whatever the Duggars believe in their warped logic. 

Coming from a cult that says you need to be joyfully available for your headship, I am not even sure they fully understand the concept of consensual sex. 

[unspoken]

16 hours ago, Denim Jumper said:

I'd even go so far as to say I don't think JB&M really grasped the long term severity of Josh's actions. They were in an echo chamber of a church community who reassured them how common it was, and truly believed that Jesus would make it all better.  You know, I wouldn't even be surprised if they see the Ashley Madison debacle as an unrelated matter. 

I have to agree and then add that I highly doubt any of his victims truly understood what happened to them and the effect it would have on them.

Speaking as someone who was similarly victimized by an older brother, it actually wasn't until the Josh molestation news came out that I was able to label what had happened to me. I had grown up with the idea that it "wasn't that bad" and that it was "normal" for brothers to treat their sisters that way. If it took me (someone who wasn't raised fundie, just conservative Christian) well into my 20s to be able to process and understand the lasting damage, I can't imagine how difficult it is/was for Josh's victims (especially since they have the added difficulty of being in the public eye). 

[socalrules]

If Anna was told something happened when Josh was younger, I don't think she would have believed it was a big deal because she would believe her parents wouldn't allow her to court someone who wasn't godly. I think Anna truly loved Josh when she married him and did not have any information that would lead her to be believe he was anything other than a wonderful man. 

[eveandadam]

53 minutes ago, Shouldabeenacowboy said:

Coming from a cult that says you need to be joyfully available for your headship, I am not even sure they fully understand the concept of consensual sex. 

I don't know but do they think that women have an inherent "drive"? Or do they only believe in women causing urges in men? if their cult teaches them that women do not have sexual urges by themselves, then being joyfully available at any time is automatically always non-consensual.

Can there be consual intercourse if one person is told they don't have urges anyway or they are not allowed to?

[evolutionbaby]

Just putting two and two together...

The statement that Josh and Anna released on the Duggar website on May 27 said they were receiving "professional" marriage counselling now that Josh had left rehab. They were then known to have been at Fort Rock that long weekend for a marriage retreat. So is the professional marriage counselling simply the Fort Rock marriage retreat or do you think they are seeing someone else on a regular basis and that was just a one off? Are the retreats hosted by Joy's future in-laws? or do they have actual marriage counsellors that host?

[socalrules]

I am sure that Josh and Anna were not seeing anyone we would think of as a professional counselor. Their idea of professional and our idea of professional is completely different, i.e. Jill is a midwife and Jana is a concert pianist. They likely went to someone who learned all they needed to know through a Gothard program. The Duggars are not going to start using conventional counseling now. If anything, the scandals have pushed them deeper into the cult mentality. 

[missegeno]

Just putting two and two together...
The statement that Josh and Anna released on the Duggar website on May 27 said they were receiving "professional" marriage counselling now that Josh had left rehab. They were then known to have been at Fort Rock that long weekend for a marriage retreat. So is the professional marriage counselling simply the Fort Rock marriage retreat or do you think they are seeing someone else on a regular basis and that was just a one off? Are the retreats hosted by Joy's future in-laws? or do they have actual marriage counsellors that host?

I would be surprised if it wasn't just Fort Rock.

[missegeno]

I understand that some people aren't given any education about sex, but wouldn't you get some kind of natural inclination about it or at least wonder how babies are made?
I grew up on a farm, seeing animals birthed quite regularly, so I knew about sex in detail from a pretty young age. So, I guess to me, it's something I've always had a seemingly inherent awareness about.
If you're not taught about sex, do you kind of get how the basics work, but not the nuances? Something like that?
I suppose though, I could see Anna not being aware that there are bad people who assault people sexually and not comprehending that her husband could do such a thing. If no one ever told you about such things why would you imagine such things.

The nuance can absolutely be missed. I am almost the youngest of my extended family, my parents divorced before i was born and the one who got full custody hasn't dated since. All of our pets were spayed or neutered. Babies and pregnancy and sex were all so absent from my life (unlike fundies) that i had no awareness of things for a long time (i didn't know that people fed babies with their boobs until i was in puberty, for example). I read what sex was in a book (the internet was more a thing when i was a teenager, but our one computer was in full view of everyone so i didn't porn much on it). Eventually health class told us if we have sex we will immediately get pregnant and die no matter what. That's when i realized sex makes babies. I lost my virginity in a gang rape and now over a decade later I'm starting to realize that i don't know how to have sex in a long term, loving, committed relationship. I have zero context for it. I'm reading a book trying to work through my issues, and I've cried every day for a few weeks now. I've never been religious but i completely missed the nuance.

[ChickenettiLuvr]

Okay, Snarkettes --  Just HOW long has the "FreeJinger Swag" link been available below???? 
|  |
|  |
V  V
Hmmmmm??   

But ... but... but ... FJ is my guilty pleasure!  Only DH knows of your existence!  Oh, the torment.
Out myself with the oversized coffee mug?  Or yearn in silence and continued anonymity?  *le sigh*

[missegeno]

12 minutes ago, ChickenettiLuvr said:

Okay, Snarkettes --  Just HOW long has the "FreeJinger Swag" link been available below???? 
|  |
|  |
V  V
Hmmmmm??   

But ... but... but ... FJ is my guilty pleasure!  Only DH knows of your existence!  Oh, the torment.
Out myself with the oversized coffee mug?  Or yearn in silence and continued anonymity?  *le sigh*

FJ swag! Where? I don't see it but I want it! Nvm, I found it.

[Pasta]

1 hour ago, missegeno said:

 I'm reading a book trying to work through my issues, and I've cried every day for a few weeks now. I've never been religious but i completely missed the nuance.

 

I'm sorry you went through that. Nuances are very difficult for me too. 

[Workingmom]

17 hours ago, evolutionbaby said:

If you're not taught about sex, do you kind of get how the basics work, but not the nuances? Something like that?

I grew  up in a fundielike culture. And went to a Christian highschool. Some of my classmates had no knowledge of the basics of sex and childbirth. They had a rude awakening in biologyclass. 

I am talking about the 80's. 16 year old girls not knowing about sex and how you get pregnant.

 

[Jana814]

I don't remember my parents ever having a "sex" talk with me. It has nothing to do being brought up in a religious household it was just never talked about. I did learn about it in health class in 8th grade from a woman who I was convinced was gay even though she was married and had 2 kids. 

[KelseyAnn]

1 hour ago, missegeno said:

 

The nuance can absolutely be missed. I am almost the youngest of my extended family, my parents divorced before i was born and the one who got full custody hasn't dated since. All of our pets were spayed or neutered. Babies and pregnancy and sex were all so absent from my life (unlike fundies) that i had no awareness of things for a long time (i didn't know that people fed babies with their boobs until i was in puberty, for example). I read what sex was in a book (the internet was more a thing when i was a teenager, but our one computer was in full view of everyone so i didn't porn much on it). Eventually health class told us if we have sex we will immediately get pregnant and die no matter what. That's when i realized sex makes babies. I lost my virginity in a gang rape and now over a decade later I'm starting to realize that i don't know how to have sex in a long term, loving, committed relationship. I have zero context for it. I'm reading a book trying to work through my issues, and I've cried every day for a few weeks now. I've never been religious but i completely missed the nuance.

 

 

I'm so sorry you went through that. If you would like, my therapist recommended a book to me that has helped me deal with a lot of issues you have as the result of sexual abuse. 

[Georgiana]

Whatever Anna was told and whatever she understood, I guarantee she was not educated on sexual consent, molestation, abuse, etc.  So, AT BEST, she probably saw this as equivalent to a dally before marriage between two consenting individuals: temptation, made mistakes, but ultimately something very forgivable.  Curiosity gone too far.  Like kissing before marriage.  Or looking at naked photos.  There is no way she understood the magnitude of Josh's actions, his victimization of others, the lasting impact of his actions, and what it could mean for her as his bride.  

She was lead to believe this was just run of the mill teenage lust that would be satisfied with an ever ready godly mate.  

I'm not sure that even now she REALLY understands the difference between what Josh did and normal teen exploration.  

And anyone can be a "professional".  You just have to perform services and charge for them.  Doesn't mean you're qualified.  Doesn't mean you're licensed.  

[Jana814]

One of my issues with Mike Keller pushing Anna into a marriage with someone with a background like Josh is he and his wife do a prison ministry, they could have met people like Josh.  Would they have allowed Anna to marry one of them?  I doubt it but because it was Josh Duggar they didn't have a problem.  

[sunshine]

On 1/4/2017 at 5:59 PM, Carm_88 said:

Yeah JB is keeping Josh and Anna plus their kids in money. Did they earn it on the show? Probably. 

If so, JB trained them to think that the money from the show is for the household. They probably not like Kate plus 8 when she indicated that her kids' money is placed in a trust. The Duggar kids do get free furniture and things like when they get married...maybe that is the pay out.