Bringing Up Bates

[slickcat79]

My interpretation from watching the show is that Kelly probably wanted to be a mother (or a mom of many) in a way that Michelle never did. Having mom more involved with the kids and with parenting tasks took some of the stress off the older ones in particular, making them less worn down and leaving them more time to explore individual interests. Even in the early specials, Poor Jana looked tired and overwhelmed while the older Bates kids do not.

That said, the Bateses are fairly early in their TV career, but they're in a different "stage of life" than the Duggars were when they started out. It's pretty obvious Kelly's baby factory has closed its doors, and several of the kids have married and moved out. That in itself may make things less stressful around the house, and if the Bateses somehow manage to stay on TV as long as the Duggars, we might find that they act differently after a few years.

Gil still comes across as douchey to me. And besides feeling bad for Erin, I was super bored by the episode. I can't imagine the show will last long, although I have no idea what the expectations are for a network like UP.

[DCM]

I think I loved the home video aspect of the filming. It seemed like they were less stage and the film crew were simply following them as they did what they normally would have done.

For example: we do not need 3 stage shots of driving the car, the exterior of a store and then a pan of the grocery aisles to understand that Carlin and Erin went shopping. It was refreshing and gave the feeling of reality instead of reality show. If that makes sense?

I honestly like the Bates. And the playful teasing between siblings and seeing Kelly and Gil hold and play with their small children compared to Michelle's hands off approach is great.

I am waiting in anticipation to see how Erin's doctors appointment goes. If they find out they cannot carry to term I really hope they pursue adoption. So many children need loving homes and I know Erin and Chad will be amazing parents.

[formergothardite]

I think I loved the home video aspect of the filming. It seemed like they were less stage and the film crew were simply following them as they did what they normally would have done.

For example: we do not need 3 stage shots of driving the car, the exterior of a store and then a pan of the grocery aisles to understand that Carlin and Erin went shopping. It was refreshing and gave the feeling of reality instead of reality show. If that makes sense?

I honestly like the Bates. And the playful teasing between siblings and seeing Kelly and Gil hold and play with their small children compared to Michelle's hands off approach is great.

I am waiting in anticipation to see how Erin's doctors appointment goes. If they find out they cannot carry to term I really hope they pursue adoption. So many children need loving homes and I know Erin and Chad will be amazing parents.

They want you to like them. They want you to think of them as a perfectly nice family that just has a bunch of kids. And they are much better at it than the Duggars. Just remember next time you watch that Gil is one of the guys who tried to cover up Gothard's abusive actions. Remember that he supported and tried to protect a man who abused teen girls for decades. The family has a very, very dark side to it and they are much less likable when you see what the parents really believe. They are much scarier than the Duggars because they believe the same horrible things yet know how to sugar coat and hide it better.

I do think that part of it is that they learned from the Duggar's mistakes and know how to make themselves seem more likable and like they are better parents.

[singsingsing]

I don't want to derail the discussion, but can someone point me to anything about what Gothard actually did? I remember that a few young women accused him of grooming behaviour, choosing the prettiest girls to be his assistants, and touching them in not necessarily sexual but inappropriate ways. Obviously all that in and of itself makes him a giant creep and validates his removal, but I'm wondering if I've missed something even worse along the way?

[nelliebelle1197]

They want you to like them. They want you to think of them as a perfectly nice family that just has a bunch of kids. And they are much better at it than the Duggars. Just remember next time you watch that Gil is one of the guys who tried to cover up Gothard's abusive actions. Remember that he supported and tried to protect a man who abused teen girls for decades. The family has a very, very dark side to it and they are much less likable when you see what the parents really believe. They are much scarier than the Duggars because they believe the same horrible things yet know how to sugar coat and hide it better.

I do think that part of it is that they learned from the Duggar's mistakes and know how to make themselves seem more likable and like they are better parents.

You are a totally amazing parent when you limit your children's opportunities by limiting their experiences and educational opportunities and indoctrinate them into a cult.

It cracks me up that people think these people are nice and lovely or the the Bates kids will "escape" because they are married - everyone but Zach is paired with hardcore ATI. Alyssa's father in law is hardcorest of the hardcore and crazy. These are the people who would love to politic their way into reshaping the US into their vision of moral and legal correctness.

If you are fooled by them, you are part of the problem.

[formergothardite]

I don't want to derail the discussion, but can someone point me to anything about what Gothard actually did? I remember that a few young women accused him of grooming behaviour, choosing the prettiest girls to be his assistants, and touching them in not necessarily sexual but inappropriate ways. Obviously all that in and of itself makes him a giant creep and validates his removal, but I'm wondering if I've missed something even worse along the way?

It started in the 70's and 80's when Bill would hand pick women to send to an isolated and secluded location so his brother could sexually harass them. Bill has claimed all along that he did not know about his brother, but recently(but before it was public on RG) the Board of Directors was provided with proof that he knew exactly what he was doing. Bill would also go to this location with women he liked who worked in the ministry and pressure them into letting him come into their rooms while they were in their night gowns and give them long hugs or have them sit on his lap. This sound like it isn't a big deal, but then you must realize that he had isolated these women from everyone in their lives that he did not approve of, had slowly taken control of their lives, brought them to a secluded location where leaving would be almost impossible, and most of them felt like they had no choice but to do what he wanted. This was all while he and his brother were writing booklets and teaching people about Gothard's strict modesty and courtship rules.

Bill had to step down for an extremely short amount of time when that happened, but bounced right back and started ATI. With ATI he could have young teens who were extremely sheltered and had been taught to never question an authority brought to him. He would often seclude these girls from other teens who were at the training centers by having them "work" with him from early in the morning till like at night and spreading rumors that the girls were rebellious and others needed to avoid them and not believe anything they say. He would hold their hands, rub his feet all the way up their skirts and have them recount in detail over and over any sexual fantasies they had. After one teen confessed her father had molested her, he told her it was her fault for tempting her father. This same girl did tell others what was going on and was punished for saying such things about Bill. He is accused of doing much more to her than he is any other of the teen girls, but it was sexual harassment for all of the girls.

Gil, as part of the Board of Directors was provided with the evidence that Bill lied all those years ago about not knowing what he brother was doing and the stories from former teens who Bill molested and sexually harassed. Of course, even Alfred who adores Bill, acknowledges that everyone knew that Bill picked pretty girls to keep by his side and be alone with, so it isn't like the Board had no clue what was going on even without RG. They just chose to turn a blind eye and let more teen girls who would not question or tell go be with Gothard.

I would not be surprised if there are a lot more stories out there, but it is hard to undo the years of brainwashing. So many of the ones who did finally come out say that they knew what he was doing made them feel uncomfortable, but they were so sheltered they didn't realize exactly how sexual it was until they were older. They also felt like they were the only ones who experienced this and like they shouldn't say anything that might harm the ministry.

[singsingsing]

Thank you, formergothardite - that was a fantastic summary! It really makes you wonder about the people on the board of directors (like Gil) who knew about these allegations and yet seemingly did nothing for so long. Did they really just turn a blind eye? Did he convince them somehow that he was innocent? Were they intimidated by him and afraid of losing their jobs? And how many of them allowed their own daughters to be put in Gothard's care, knowing what they knew?

[Hisey]

I am waiting in anticipation to see how Erin's doctors appointment goes. If they find out they cannot carry to term I really hope they pursue adoption. So many children need loving homes and I know Erin and Chad will be amazing parents.

Interesting thought. Most of the time, when fundies go to adopt, many people get really mad. They say the couple shouldn't adopt because they are fundie, will indoctrinate the kids, will use corporal punishment, etc.

It is implied that the fundie couple doesn't "deserve" a child, particularly not a cute baby. I'm not saying you feel this way, I'm just noting the general sentiment

Do Erin and Chad rise above this because they are young, attractive, appealing and seem to be nice people? If so, is that fair? Will they really be "amazing parents" if they believe all the fundie conventional wisdom about childrearing?

My own opinion (stated here before) is that adoption varies wildly. The healthy, drugfree white babies available are high in demand, and yes, such a baby could "do better" than a fundie home.

However, my experience with older international adoptees demonstrates that those kids will take any home they can get to get out of the orphanage and into a first-world country with plenty of food and medicine. They often have enough brains and intelligence to shed the fundie mindset when they are grown. They are just grateful to get to grow up at all. I can only rejoice for a baby taken from an impoverished orphanage and brought to a moderate fundie home like the Bates or Kelly Crawford (a vet appointment is better than no doctor at all, and 1/8 a chicken breast a day is better than no protein in your diet at all)

So, anyway, interesting thought. Made me think.

[singsingsing]

I think often the main issue people have with fundies trying to adopt is that they already have a gazillion children. That they shouldn't be looking for another child to bring into their home when they can barely feed, clothe, and provide emotional support for the 14 they already have. Obviously that's not the case for Erin and Chad.

[formergothardite]

Thank you, formergothardite - that was a fantastic summary! It really makes you wonder about the people on the board of directors (like Gil) who knew about these allegations and yet seemingly did nothing for so long. Did they really just turn a blind eye? Did he convince them somehow that he was innocent? Were they intimidated by him and afraid of losing their jobs? And how many of them allowed their own daughters to be put in Gothard's care, knowing what they knew?

Alfred, Gothard's biggest fan, admits that his less pretty but more qualified daughter was devastated when Gothard ignored her and chose his prettier daughter to come work with him, but he explained it away as "Gothard is just a man and this is natural." I imagine that the men on the Board might have taken an approach much like that. The Board requested Gothard stop being alone with teen girls years ago because of rumors, but they did nothing when Gothard ignored them and continued doing what he has always done. The Board was hand picked by Gothard, so men like Gil were chosen because he knew they would never stand up to him. I know that some of the Bates daughters have traveled with Gothard on mission trips to Peru.

[singsingsing]

Alfred, Gothard's biggest fan, admits that his less pretty but more qualified daughter was devastated when Gothard ignored her and chose his prettier daughter to come work with him, but he explained it away as "Gothard is just a man and this is natural." I imagine that the men on the Board might have taken an approach much like that. The Board requested Gothard stop being alone with teen girls years ago because of rumors, but they did nothing when Gothard ignored them and continued doing what he has always done. The Board was hand picked by Gothard, so men like Gil were chosen because he knew they would never stand up to him. I know that some of the Bates daughters have traveled with Gothard on mission trips to Peru.

That boggles my mind. How can anyone be okay with their daughter going to intern for a guy with that kind of a reputation? Doesn't some kind of natural feeling like, oh, I don't know, love - or even protectiveness, or pride - take over and tell you to keep your daughter far away from someone like that? Unreal.

[Rainytown]

I saw last night's episode. Let's say it was getting pretty dusty in our family room while Erin Payne was talking about her struggle with miscarriages and infertility. I'd also like to state for the record that I can't imagine ONE of the Duggars actually having the compassion to realize that any member of their family is in that kind of emotional pain and to do what he or she could to help. (The sister who chose to tell Erin in the grocery store that she was proud of her -- I was talking out loud to the TV: "Don't make her cry in the store.")

Whoever said they are likable and relatable in comparison to the Duggars hit it out of the park. They're not perfect. There does seem to be a warmth and caring about family that is absent in the Duggar household. I also FLOVED their version of "FU Internetz" -- Mrs. Bates in the laundry room with her daughters, all pitching in to get laundry done (!), Mrs. Bates dropping everything involved with the shower to race home when her son had a pretty bad car wreck. I also appreciated the fact that Mr. Bates does not seem to engage in the same type of grandstanding Jim Boob and his omnipresent microphone does at home. (If you have to use a microphone to talk to your own children, you have too many children.) Biggest FU Internetz of all -- they FED THEIR GUESTS something more than generic root beer and ice cream, and they didn't require those guests to assemble the refreshments... Take that, Duggars!

IMHO, of course, but it becomes clear why there has been no courtships between Duggars and any of the Bateses...

I am sad that the Bates will use this as a springboard to recruit more families to ATI. I'd like to hope that they could summon the compassion to realize that Bill Gothard significantly injured others and to seek forgiveness for Mr. Bates' role in that.

[formergothardite]

That boggles my mind. How can anyone be okay with their daughter going to intern for a guy with that kind of a reputation? Doesn't some kind of natural feeling like, oh, I don't know, love - or even protectiveness, or pride - take over and tell you to keep your daughter far away from someone like that? Unreal.

Gothard is no fool and I do think he knows how to read people very well. He knew exactly which girls to pick and which ones to avoid. He knew which parents would start asking questions and which ones would make excuses. Even if Gothard had stopped in the 80's it should make people question his teachings that he and his brother were writing all the material for ATI while they were systematically grooming and isolating women to sexually harass. In the latest info released by RG it is revealed that one woman had to seek medical care from an Institute doctor after a sexual encounter with Bill's brother. The doctor wanted to make sure that Bill's brother was protected and the woman would keep quiet. Bill sure knows how to pick people who will protect him.

[formergothardite]

I saw last night's episode. Let's say it was getting pretty dusty in our family room while Erin Payne was talking about her struggle with miscarriages and infertility. I'd also like to state for the record that I can't imagine ONE of the Duggars actually having the compassion to realize that any member of their family is in that kind of emotional pain and to do what he or she could to help. (The sister who chose to tell Erin in the grocery store that she was proud of her -- I was talking out loud to the TV: "Don't make her cry in the store.")

Whoever said they are likable and relatable in comparison to the Duggars hit it out of the park. They're not perfect. There does seem to be a warmth and caring about family that is absent in the Duggar household. I also FLOVED their version of "FU Internetz" -- Mrs. Bates in the laundry room with her daughters, all pitching in to get laundry done (!), Mrs. Bates dropping everything involved with the shower to race home when her son had a pretty bad car wreck. I also appreciated the fact that Mr. Bates does not seem to engage in the same type of grandstanding Jim Boob and his omnipresent microphone does at home. (If you have to use a microphone to talk to your own children, you have too many children.) Biggest FU Internetz of all -- they FED THEIR GUESTS something more than generic root beer and ice cream, and they didn't require those guests to assemble the refreshments... Take that, Duggars!

IMHO, of course, but it becomes clear why there has been no courtships between Duggars and any of the Bateses...

I am sad that the Bates will use this as a springboard to recruit more families to ATI. I'd like to hope that they could summon the compassion to realize that Bill Gothard significantly injured others and to seek forgiveness for Mr. Bates' role in that.

No matter what else they do, any person who helps cover up abuse is not a good parent. Of course they wanted to have lots of FU's to the internet, they want to be the new nice likable face of ATI and make everyone forget that they are not only deeply involved in a dangerous cult but they helped cover up the abuse done by the cult leader.

I just find it frustrating that so many people are all "Aren't they are wonderful family! I like them so much!" when Gil(and most likely Kelly) know about all this abuse and tried to keep it covered up. Nice people don't do stuff like that.

[uber frau]

Institute doctor? I he's not the only one but Chad Paine's father is a doctor and heavily involved in the workings of ATI/IBLP.

[meep]

I would love to see this show but don't get it on my cable. I like the Bates way more than the Duggars. They are more likable. I don't get bored to tears watching them. I'd also like to clarify, when I say "I like the Bates more than the Duggars", it's equivalent of saying "I like Mussolini more than Hitler." They're both fudging evil, but one is clearly more evil than the other.

I want to watch for the same reason I watch the Duggars (except the Duggars are so utterly boring, I've *almost* given up on the show). I am still waiting for the day that at least one of them decides they don't want to be part of the lifestyle anymore. I have way more faith with the Bates than the Duggars.

[formergothardite]

I would love to see this show but don't get it on my cable. I like the Bates way more than the Duggars. They are more likable. I don't get bored to tears watching them. I'd also like to clarify, when I say "I like the Bates more than the Duggars", it's equivalent of saying "I like Mussolini more than Hitler." They're both fudging evil, but one is clearly more evil than the other.

I want to watch for the same reason I watch the Duggars (except the Duggars are so utterly boring, I've *almost* given up on the show). I am still waiting for the day that at least one of them decides they don't want to be part of the lifestyle anymore. I have way more faith with the Bates than the Duggars.

Kind of like how John Shrader is a better parent than the RVing Rodrigues parents? I think the Bates are actually the more evil parents because Gil knew about everything and not only did nothing to protect the teen girls that Gothard likes to prey on, he let his own daughters travel with Bill. Gil is an Institute man through and through. There is a reason Jim Bob isn't on the Board of Directors, and I bet it has to do with the fact that he isn't easily controlled.

Gil and Kelly do have an advantage over Michelle and Jim Bob. They are not only starting this when their kids are older, they have been able to read about what people dislike about the Duggars and so that they can make sure they don't do those things. Michelle doesn't seem like an involved mother who helps around the house, so Kelly is going to make damn sure that she is shown being a deeply involved parent who helps around the house. People mock the Duggars making their guest cook TTC(which I would not doubt the TLC producers came up with the idea that they have guest cook the trade mark dish), the Bates are going to do the opposite. Gil knows how to appear like his is just a good old country boy, nothing like Jim Bob.

[Mela99]

I have a lot more respect for Erin after watching that. I don't know if I could have been that kind and gracious.

They certainly are a nicer, friendlier, happier family than the Duggars but.... lesser of two evils.

[Mecca]

Going to be honest here, but I find it a bit perplexing that so many seem to be giving Gil and Kelly a pass just because they seem so personable and down home.

They hold very destructive, harmful views and beliefs, they are part of the Gothard Fan Club, and they are very much on the same bandwagon trying to diminish the rights of others. Personally, I do not find those actions appealing no matter how much smiling they do for the camera. All that glitters is not gold, and we need to remember that.

[formergothardite]

I think that spending a lot of time on a reality TV show has a tendency to make people unlikable, especially when it comes to children. It just isn't a healthy way to be raised. The Duggar kids have had their lives and childhoods sold as entertainment, some since birth,so it really shouldn't surprise anyone that they appear less friendly and happy than a family that has only had brief times on television.

[Buzzard]

I saw last night's episode. Let's say it was getting pretty dusty in our family room while Erin Payne was talking about her struggle with miscarriages and infertility. I'd also like to state for the record that I can't imagine ONE of the Duggars actually having the compassion to realize that any member of their family is in that kind of emotional pain and to do what he or she could to help. (The sister who chose to tell Erin in the grocery store that she was proud of her -- I was talking out loud to the TV: "Don't make her cry in the store.")

Whoever said they are likable and relatable in comparison to the Duggars hit it out of the park. They're not perfect. There does seem to be a warmth and caring about family that is absent in the Duggar household. I also FLOVED their version of "FU Internetz" -- Mrs. Bates in the laundry room with her daughters, all pitching in to get laundry done (!), Mrs. Bates dropping everything involved with the shower to race home when her son had a pretty bad car wreck. I also appreciated the fact that Mr. Bates does not seem to engage in the same type of grandstanding Jim Boob and his omnipresent microphone does at home. (If you have to use a microphone to talk to your own children, you have too many children.) Biggest FU Internetz of all -- they FED THEIR GUESTS something more than generic root beer and ice cream, and they didn't require those guests to assemble the refreshments... Take that, Duggars!

IMHO, of course, but it becomes clear why there has been no courtships between Duggars and any of the Bateses...

I am sad that the Bates will use this as a springboard to recruit more families to ATI. I'd like to hope that they could summon the compassion to realize that Bill Gothard significantly injured others and to seek forgiveness for Mr. Bates' role in that.

At the baby shower there were PURCHASED sandwiches in a box on the table. The Duggars would die before they served their guests 1) an actual complete meal and 2) something from a store.

I agree the Bateses are just as, if not more, dangerous as the Duggars. They make their way of life look happy, plausible, and successful. The kids dont come off as smug assholes (josh/anna), kool aid drinkers (Jill), or sex crazed (Jessa). Unlike the Duggar kids, who seem to feel that they are better than others because they are blessed to be a Duggar, the Bates kids seem "normal." I'd also bet that Kelly answers mail sent to her by fans, unlike the Duggars who sometimes send a pre printed card and often dont reply at all.

Behind it all I'm sure they are just as education deficient as the Duggarlings. We know they've had financial issues, but thats not something that is likely to come up on the show. WE also know that they arent just harmless christians, but they'll portray themselves as some form of mainstream Christianity that doesnt preach mysogeny.

I've always found it interesting that these people think they are SO RIGHT in their beliefs but they will go to such lengths to hide it from the public. If your way is the right way, why not be proud? Have Kelly sit in front of a camera and talk about submission and near sexual slavery. Have the kids talk about blanket training and having their "will broken." Talk about how awesome Michael and Debbie Pearl are and how to beat your child without leaving a mark the authorities will care about...

[DCM]

Interesting thought. Most of the time, when fundies go to adopt, many people get really mad. They say the couple shouldn't adopt because they are fundie, will indoctrinate the kids, will use corporal punishment, etc.

It is implied that the fundie couple doesn't "deserve" a child, particularly not a cute baby. I'm not saying you feel this way, I'm just noting the general sentiment

Do Erin and Chad rise above this because they are young, attractive, appealing and seem to be nice people? If so, is that fair? Will they really be "amazing parents" if they believe all the fundie conventional wisdom about childrearing?

My own opinion (stated here before) is that adoption varies wildly. The healthy, drugfree white babies available are high in demand, and yes, such a baby could "do better" than a fundie home.

However, my experience with older international adoptees demonstrates that those kids will take any home they can get to get out of the orphanage and into a first-world country with plenty of food and medicine. They often have enough brains and intelligence to shed the fundie mindset when they are grown. They are just grateful to get to grow up at all. I can only rejoice for a baby taken from an impoverished orphanage and brought to a moderate fundie home like the Bates or Kelly Crawford (a vet appointment is better than no doctor at all, and 1/8 a chicken breast a day is better than no protein in your diet at all)

So, anyway, interesting thought. Made me think.

I think my idea is that they genuinely seem to desire children. You can see it especially when Erin references her miscarriages. Do i believe they would be good parents because of that desire and obvious love for one another? Yes I do. Everyone has different beliefs on whether fundies should adopt. Is is better for a child to grow up unloved and malnourished in the extreme poverty of a third world orphanage or to be adopted and raised by a fundamentalist white christian couple in America who will raise them according to beliefs that many would consider emotionally destructive? Some would say yes to either side. In my personal opinion I believe it is better for them to adopt and offer a home to a child who would otherwise sleep on a dirt floor and maybe eat one meal a day. Not all would agree but that is my feeling on it.

[meep]

Kind of like how John Shrader is a better parent than the RVing Rodrigues parents? I think the Bates are actually the more evil parents because Gil knew about everything and not only did nothing to protect the teen girls that Gothard likes to prey on, he let his own daughters travel with Bill. Gil is an Institute man through and through. There is a reason Jim Bob isn't on the Board of Directors, and I bet it has to do with the fact that he isn't easily controlled.

Gil and Kelly do have an advantage over Michelle and Jim Bob. They are not only starting this when their kids are older, they have been able to read about what people dislike about the Duggars and so that they can make sure they don't do those things. Michelle doesn't seem like an involved mother who helps around the house, so Kelly is going to make damn sure that she is shown being a deeply involved parent who helps around the house. People mock the Duggars making their guest cook TTC(which I would not doubt the TLC producers came up with the idea that they have guest cook the trade mark dish), the Bates are going to do the opposite. Gil knows how to appear like his is just a good old country boy, nothing like Jim Bob.

I meant overall. I don't know who is actually eviler - Jimboob or Gil? Gil is on the ATI board....but Jimboob was a politician actively trying to make these ideals a reality for everybody. But it SEEMS like the Duggars are much more "pushy" with their beliefs, both with their own children and others.

As someone who was raised "second-hand ATI" (long story) and knows families who are lifelong members, some of them are awesome. They really are in person nice, friendly, funny, actually know and care about their children, and are generally non-judgmental if you don't think the same way they do. So yeah, those types of families I think are better than the Duggars. That doesn't mean they don't lead their lives very destructively (and I know for a fact they are judgmental, they just don't show it).

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I think that spending a lot of time on a reality TV show has a tendency to make people unlikable, especially when it comes to children. It just isn't a healthy way to be raised. The Duggar kids have had their lives and childhoods sold as entertainment, some since birth,so it really shouldn't surprise anyone that they appear less friendly and happy than a family that has only had brief times on television.

I'm pretty sure that I never found the Duggar parent's particularly likeable, and my opinion of each child hasn't changed since 14 and Pregnant first aired. The Duggars aren't just likable people. I started to watch them because I like trainwrecks. Course, I've since stopped watching (except I did catch Jill's wedding and engagement) because I just am so bored to tears with them.

The Bateses, I like that they're not a trainwreck. I mean, yes I know they have awful beliefs and whatever. I get that. But the family itself is a lot more solid. And each kid has a personality that really stands out. Which is hugely different from the Duggars where I'm still getting the middle kids mixed up (despite having followed them since the beginning) because they're all basically clones of each other.

[Jana814]

Thanks for the info about the Bates show.