Bringing Up Bates

[atheistjd]

What I like is that they actually have something to say about each other. Like the video of Erin and Chad... if the Duggars did a video like that, which they have... it consists of "well I first noticed his wonderful soul, his love for God is what drew me to him.."

I noticed that too! I liked that they were allowed to admit attraction to each other; they may be sugar coating it for viewers but it seems like much less of an arranged-marriage situation than the Duggar courtships (especially Jill & Derrick).

[RosyDaisy]

I'm perplexed that people actually defend these people and their antics. That's the only answer I'll give.

[Hisey]

Here's what struck me: They were talking about Zach's baby and a Bates kid said:

Zach hasn't changed a lot of diapers in his life.

Until last year, Zach lived in a house where there was ALWAY a baby. Even the youngest Bates kid was only 1 when Zach left home.

So there were always babies, every single day of his life. Sometimes there were probably two in diapers. Each baby needs a change 5-6 times per day. And he hasn't changed many diapers?

How can this be? What happened when he was holding a young brother who suddenly pooped? Did he just pass the baby off to one of his younger sisters?

I understand the gender roles and all, but the way they said it. .. . it was like, of course HE hasn't changed many diapers, he's a guy and all. . .

[FreeHannie!]

I like them more than the Duggars. I don't endorse their beliefs, but they at least they actually seem like a family that gets along and likes each other, and I don't get that vibe from the Duggars.

And I can't help but find Erin and Chad endearing. He really, truly loves her to the point he nearly cried when talking about watching her cry. It's sweet.

[reina]

I started watch the first episode with the idea that I would be constantly rolling my eyes as I do when watching the Duggars, but I was quite surprised. I actually rather enjoyed it. They seemed more relaxed and more natural. To hear Tory say " shut your mouth and eat it" really shocked me. You wouldn't here that from the Duggars. The Duggar seem to always think of how to answer the way that they want to be persived. And I loved seeing a genuine reaction from Erin. Hearing her say that it was painful what she went through and being at Whitney's baby shower affected her was an honest reaction. And when hearing that Alyssa was pregnant, even though she was happy for her sister, made her question why she wasn't pregnent. It wasn't what you hear from the Duggars, "it was God's will". So even though I don't agree with what they stand for I sort of like them better...

[singsingsing]

I'm perplexed that people actually defend these people and their antics. That's the only answer I'll give.

So you prefer to just make stuff up, or pick out the most random innocuous details to insult and slander them over, rather than focus on, oh, I don't know, their actual real issues? Sorry, but that's what's perplexing here. I don't understand why you need to believe that Jessa had sex in a church closet or that Alyssa is a bitch for wanting to announce her pregnancy in a fun way, when you have tangible proof that these people stunt their children's emotional growth, promote abusive child-rearing techniques, give their daughters into the care of a known sexual harasser of young women, deny their children opportunities to succeed in life - I mean I could go on for days here. I know you hate these people - it's very obvious - but I'm not sure you realize that insults are totally ineffective when they're obviously false, and only end up hurting your own argument.

Nobody is going to believe that the Duggars and the Bateses are evil and wrong in every way and that every single thing they do is negative, and every single silly rumour about them is true. The only effect that has is to make people roll their eyes and discount the actual problems inherent in their lifestyle, a handful of which I listed above. I don't want people to believe that Jessa is a sex maniac and Alyssa is hateful and Michelle is insane and Jim Bob is an evil mastermind. I want people to believe that although these families do have many positive attributes, their religious system is corrupt and dangerous. Making them into evil caricatures will not inspire people to see that.

[nokidsmom]

Oh I can. I don't believe for a second that they disciplined their children any differently than the Duggars. They came into the spotlight after the Duggars and learned from them, so they know to keep their associations with people like the Pearls quiet. Rather like they try and hide their association with Bill Gothard and ATI.

Of course they say that the older kids get to make their own decision, just like the Duggars say. And I'm sure that they do, with in the very limited guidelines that Gil and Kelly provide. It is like when my daughter was little and I would set out three outfits for her to choose from. It made her feel like she was grown up and picking out her own outfits, and she was to an extent, but only within the very small bounds that I had set. You really think Gil and Kelly would not try and shame and guilt an adult child who decided to not do the "dating with a purpose" and just date? Or if they decided to go off alone with the person they were dating to kiss and make out? Or if the daughters decided to date someone that was totally not approved by Gil? It was one thing letting Zach do that, because he was a guy and could bring his wife into the fold, but letting a daughter would be a whole other story.

To the bolded: exactly this. Gil and Kelly have had the advantage of coming to fame after the Duggar family and could follow them as a template of what to do and what not to do. Gil and Kelly are both college educated and I think are a bit more smart in how to portray their family in a better light.

Agree about letting Zach get a wife from outside the fold because he's the headship in the marriage and can influence/control the wife. A daughter would be subject to her husband as headship and therefore it's a lot bigger issue that her husband be vetted and approved as someone who will tow the line. Yes, Chad and Erin are a cute couple and they obviously love each other. But Chad is from an influential ATI family, how would it have gone if he was not? What if it was that he and Erin met at the local Sonic and he was non-ATI? Even with all other things being equal, I don't think that Gil would have OK'd that at all and Erin would have followed her dad's wishes. In my view, Erin completely lucked out in finding a truly good guy who met her parents' approval and requirements. She could have married some ATI idiot like Pecan Thief.

So this whole "dating with a purpose" and freedom to decide your limits nonsense, the adult kid is still supposed to marry someone who is parent approved and has the relationship monitored. In spite of the talk about how much contact to have, you can bet that Gil and Kelly would have serious objections to their adult kid deciding to kiss before marriage much less do anything more. That's quite a few limits to impose an an adult.

[formergothardite]

So you prefer to just make stuff up, or pick out the most random innocuous details to insult and slander them over, rather than focus on, oh, I don't know, their actual real issues? Sorry, but that's what's perplexing here. I don't understand why you need to believe that Jessa had sex in a church closet or that Alyssa is a bitch for wanting to announce her pregnancy in a fun way, when you have tangible proof that these people stunt their children's emotional growth, promote abusive child-rearing techniques, give their daughters into the care of a known sexual harasser of young women, deny their children opportunities to succeed in life - I mean I could go on for days here. I know you hate these people - it's very obvious - but I'm not sure you realize that insults are totally ineffective when they're obviously false, and only end up hurting your own argument.

Nobody is going to believe that the Duggars and the Bateses are evil and wrong in every way and that every single thing they do is negative, and every single silly rumour about them is true. The only effect that has is to make people roll their eyes and discount the actual problems inherent in their lifestyle, a handful of which I listed above. I don't want people to believe that Jessa is a sex maniac and Alyssa is hateful and Michelle is insane and Jim Bob is an evil mastermind. I want people to believe that although these families do have many positive attributes, their religious system is corrupt and dangerous. Making them into evil caricatures will not inspire people to see that.

I agree. I think what people should realize looking at this family is that even parents who do really awful things to their children can come off as loving, devoted parents. There was a blog I used to follow that I can't remember the name of, but the mother seemed to be the most devoted mother in the world. Her children looked happy, well taken care of and well rounded. She is in jail now for trying to slowing kill her youngest daughter. There are many people who suspect she made her other kids sick too. If you just looked at a small snapshot of her life without taking into consideration that she tried to kill her daughter, you would think she was an amazing mother. If we look at what Gil and Kelly show us without taking into consideration that they:

A.) are active members of a dangerous cult

B.) allowed their daughters to travel with a man after knowing that there were rumors that he groomed and sexually harassed young teens

C.) purposely keep their children from gaining a good education

D.) force their children into strict gender roles

E.) have children with no consideration to how they will provide for them both emotionally and physically.

F.) crush the dreams and goals of their children when they do not line up with what the parents approve of

the list can probably go on, but you get the point

of course they look like pretty good parents with a happy family. But when you look at the big picture they suck as parents and have fucked their kids up big time.

The Duggar kids are pretty much damned if they do, damned if they don't. If one of the daughters snapped to others to shut their mouths and eat it, people would criticize her for being rude. If she doesn't she gets criticized for being too robotic. At this point in their lives they probably carefully monitor every word that can end up on television because they know it is going to be dissected. I can't imagine the level of stress they live under. I hope some of that TLC money is being saved to pay for all the therapy they are going to need.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm 25 and had a car accident last year with my sister last winter and neither of us had a scratch on it and our mother still raced from work immediately when she found out and drove for 40 minutes from the city out to the West Island in heavy snow to check on/be with us even though we are a pair of adult women, because that is what mothers do. We're still her babies lol. It was a good thing she did because my sister went into delayed shock an hour later and mom was a huge comfort to her.

I've been in 3 car accidents (two within an hour of each other, which was just absolutely ridiculous and made me question if I had a sign that said "run into my car" lol). My parents just asked if I was okay, when I said I was and that the car was okay, that was the end of it.

When I had the two accidents in one day, I had the 1 year old I take care of in the backseat. I called his mom immediately, she asked if we were okay. I said we were. Then she just waited for us to get back to her house. Knowing he was fine, she didn't rush over to him or anything. She made some jokes, and left it at that.

I would honestly find any other reaction to "I'm fine" to be over the top.

[Kelsey]

Erin had 3 miscarriages, and it's beyond insensitive to pull a stunt like that. A simple I'm pregnant would do. As for Whitney, she and Erin were pregnant at the same time, and it makes sense that there would be a baby shower. As for the baby shower, let's be honest. It was just a gift grabbing opportunity. These people have no shame.

I don't see any problem with Alyssa's announcement or Whitney's shower. I suffer with IF as well and have watched my four much younger siblings have 9 babies amongst them. I've attended all 8 of their showers (one was twins). There's been big announcements and the normal "I'm pregnant." While they both sting (equally, IME), I know why that someone else having a baby does not affect my chances for doing so. I would hate for someone to feel that they must hide their happy moments because of my IF struggles.

FWIW, I've had trouble conceiving, miscarriages (3), failed inseminations and IVF so I (unfortunately) and speaking from experience.

[eh02]

I don't see any problem with Alyssa's announcement or Whitney's shower. I suffer with IF as well and have watched my four much younger siblings have 9 babies amongst them. I've attended all 8 of their showers (one was twins). There's been big announcements and the normal "I'm pregnant." While they both sting (equally, IME), I know why that someone else having a baby does not affect my chances for doing so. I would hate for someone to feel that they must hide their happy moments because of my IF struggles.

I'm not sure it even would have been a problem (IMO) if Erin HAD been there, but I don't think she was, anyway. I would assume she was at her own house - I did not see her there when Alyssa came in with the shirt on.

I really doubt Erin, or most women, honestly, would want to feel like everyone was tiptoeing around her. Erin does not seem like the type who would expect everyone to mourn her miscarriages forever and not enjoy happy events going on in someone else's life. I think it's kind of ridiculous that people are assuming she is so fragile. Celebrating someone's happy events in life can happen simultaneously with supporting someone who has suffered. It's not a one-or-the-other kind of choice.

[Pretzel]

I'm perplexed that people actually defend these people and their antics. That's the only answer I'll give.

I'm well aware of the fact that the Bateses are members of a cult which has proven to be very harmful for its members. I resent their misogynist attitude and their repressed behavior.

However, I will not nag and snark on things they do which normally wouldn't bother me with other people. There's so much unnecessary snark going on, which -if I were to be a kid of a fundie mega family- would really disturb me if I read it online. It's not mutually exclusive to criticize someone for their believes but appreciate some other aspects of their lives.

[Hisey]

I agree with eh02.

My husband is infertile from a childhood illness. We adopted a little girl shortly after we got news of his infertility. When our daughter was six, my SIL became pregnant. What she did next was incredibly insensitive to me.

She apparently thought that, six years after learning of our infertility, I could not bear news about a pregnancy. I mean, I'd known lots of people who'd become pregnant during that time and survived just fine--been happy for them, in fact. I was busy with my little girl, after all. Anyhow, she told my husband the news in a secretive way, and then asked if he could tell me.

Of course, my husband's family is very avoidant and terrified of emotion. Maybe she transferred her own grief about my husband's infertility (if she had any) over to me. But I thought it was weird and insulting to treat me like a fragile creature that would collapse with what really was happy news.

[Gingi1976]

I've always liked the Bates Family. I don't agree with their religious beliefs or a lot of their choices, but at the end of the day they've always struck me as decent people who love their kids. And the contrast between the Bates and the Duggars (for me) is now more apparent than ever. The Bates kids seems to have personalitites and they genuinely like one another. The scene with Erin and Carlin (?) at the grocery store was sweet, and it dawned on me that I've never seen an authentic moment like that between ANY of the Duggars. Ever. Alyssa announcing her pregnancy was cute, and all I could think was that Jim Bob's head would EXPLODE if any of his kids wore a shirt like that because it's inconsistent with their pure, perfect, brand.

The Bates aren't perfect. But at the very least their kids have identities and personalities and parents who have made an effort to get to know them as adults. And Kelly and Gil also seem to trust their kids in a way that the Duggars don't. Watching them was refreshing after 10 years of Duggar.

[singsingsing]

The impression I get is that the Duggars are playing characters - and they're all kind of trying to play the same character. They view their TV show as a 'ministry' and for them that means carefully controlling what they say and how they appear on camera. I think that's a big part of the reason some of them tend to come off as either fake or stand-offish. They're just going through their lines, almost like they're in a church play hoping the heathens will learn from their example - but it's stilted. I don't know if the years of filming have transferred this aspect over into the rest of their lives, or if they're just more naturally reserved in general, but I will say that the Bateses seem to be more emotionally healthy people.

[lilwriter85]

I've always liked the Bates Family. I don't agree with their religious beliefs or a lot of their choices, but at the end of the day they've always struck me as decent people who love their kids. And the contrast between the Bates and the Duggars (for me) is now more apparent than ever. The Bates kids seems to have personalitites and they genuinely like one another. The scene with Erin and Carlin (?) at the grocery store was sweet, and it dawned on me that I've never seen an authentic moment like that between ANY of the Duggars. Ever. Alyssa announcing her pregnancy was cute, and all I could think was that Jim Bob's head would EXPLODE if any of his kids wore a shirt like that because it's inconsistent with their pure, perfect, brand.

The Bates aren't perfect. But at the very least their kids have identities and personalities and parents who have made an effort to get to know them as adults. And Kelly and Gil also seem to trust their kids in a way that the Duggars don't. Watching them was refreshing after 10 years of Duggar.

I agree with you on a lot of what you said. I've always found them to be more likable than the Duggars. Yeah, Gil has pissed me off in the past, but I think David Rodrigues, Steve Maxwell, and PP are more annoying than Gil.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I'm well aware of the fact that the Bateses are members of a cult which has proven to be very harmful for its members. I resent their misogynist attitude and their repressed behavior.

However, I will not nag and snark on things they do which normally wouldn't bother me with other people. There's so much unnecessary snark going on, which -if I were to be a kid of a fundie mega family- would really disturb me if I read it online. It's not mutually exclusive to criticize someone for their believes but appreciate some other aspects of their lives.

I wholeheartedly agree here. I am fully aware of all the crap that these families promote and do, but that doesn't mean that everything they do is evil. Especially when it's the same thing other people would do. Plus, these kids, who really had no choice in how they were raised, are being attacked for even the smallest actions or decisions.

I understand this is a snarking website, but there's a point at which snarking ends and I've seen a lot of people cross that line.

[formergothardite]

I've always liked the Bates Family. I don't agree with their religious beliefs or a lot of their choices, but at the end of the day they've always struck me as decent people who love their kids. And the contrast between the Bates and the Duggars (for me) is now more apparent than ever. The Bates kids seems to have personalitites and they genuinely like one another. The scene with Erin and Carlin (?) at the grocery store was sweet, and it dawned on me that I've never seen an authentic moment like that between ANY of the Duggars. Ever. Alyssa announcing her pregnancy was cute, and all I could think was that Jim Bob's head would EXPLODE if any of his kids wore a shirt like that because it's inconsistent with their pure, perfect, brand.

The Bates aren't perfect. But at the very least their kids have identities and personalities and parents who have made an effort to get to know them as adults. And Kelly and Gil also seem to trust their kids in a way that the Duggars don't. Watching them was refreshing after 10 years of Duggar.

The thing is, decent people don't help cover up child abuse. Decent people, when they are on a BoD and hear rumors that the head guy has been using his position to groom and sexually harass(with at least one accusation of pretty nasty molestation) young teen girls, they don't ask the guy to stop being alone with teen girls and then do nothing when the man ignores them. Decent people don't get packets of information showing that the head guy has a long history of lying, covering up the sexual harassment done by others, and accusations of sexual harassing teens who are sent to be counseled and mentored by him and then do their best to keep this information from becoming public. Decent people don't send their own daughters to travel with a guy like Bill Gothard knowing what they knew about him.

No Gil Bates is not a decent person. And it is so frustrating to read this thread and know that people here know what he did and still think that he and Kelly are decent, kind, loving parents. No, they put on a good show, but they are not decent or good parents. Their love seems to be conditional just like the Duggars love their children. As long as the adult children don't step too far outside the narrow bounds, as long as they stay behind the "hedge of protection" the parents will love them. But you think the love would be the same if a daughter wanted to go off to college and have a career? Or if a child is gay?

[nokidsmom]

I would like to see how Gil and Kelly react when a child really does go outside their acceptable bounds. They haven't been tested yet, but there was poster here sometime back who mentioned that Kelly was not happy with Whitney and Zach when they were first courting / engaged because she was not from within their fundie circles. Also that they met at Sonic and not within the confines of parent controlled courtship. Since Zach and Whit got married, they got over it (at least to some extent) but that's nothing compared to say a child coming out as gay, dating or marrying someone who's even more different than Whit, insists on trying to get more education outside of approved Crown College / College Minus / Or Name Your Approved Fundie College here or anything that's outside of what they deem acceptable. I don't think they are going to react any differently than JB and J'chelle dealing with the same situation.

[singsingsing]

I'm sure they are loving parents, but you can be loving and also totally misguided. My father loved me, but he was not a very good parent. Yet I can still say that he loved me, and that he has many good qualities, and that I like things about him and he did certain things right - and I can especially say that he was a good and decent father compared to many others. I think it's possible to appreciate the good qualities that people like the Bateses seem to have, while also calling them out on their mistakes and not being blinded by their 'aw shucks' down home image.

(Also, I think sometimes people are impressed with how the Bateses behave as compared to the Duggars. That's less a compliment to the Bateses and more a criticism of the Duggars, in my opinion.)

I totally agree with formergothardite in that their true colours will not emerge until one of their children does something they really disagree with. The closest any of them have gotten to rebelling is Zach, and all he did was meet a conservative Christian girl working at a fast food restaurant, who promptly adopted their own lifestyle. They haven't (as far as we know) truly been challenged yet.

[Peas n carrots]

We need to have Bates disclaimer on the bottom of every thread. I couldn't agree more with FG and I'm sure it gets old for her to have to constantly remind folks that the Bates have a shiny happy film over patriarchal bullshit.

[PeanutButterCookie]

Although they are cut from the same cloth, I have to say the Bates were a breath of fresh air compared to the Duggars. The Duggars always seem so forced and uptight when they interact with each other, with the exception of Jim Bob and Michelle :roll: .

When Carlin(?) was telling Erin how proud of her she was, it seemed so genuine. The last sit down the older Duggar girls did together it seemed like they were awkward around each other, I don't think they are close to each other like they want to make it seem.

[fundiefan]

Comparing Bates & Duggars makes the Bates look ordinary, or for some, better. Taking them separately - the Bates as the Bates - they are just the same. ATI cult members, no individuality, no tolerance or acceptance.

They're just as ugly as the Duggars no matter how they present themselves.

[Boogalou]

A lot of the big differences between the Bates family and the Duggar family are the people editing their shows. The Duggars are on TLC who specialize in shows whose premise basically boils down to "Look at these people! They are weird and crazy and aren't you glad you aren't like them! LOL!" While the Bates are on a network whose aim is to basically make people happy and make Christianity look good. It's no wonder the Bates come out looking better, that's kind of the point. Even when the Bates' show was on TLC they already had the crazy giant family role filled so they took a different direction. You can edit things to pretty much look however you want.

Look at Zsu, if you wanted people to think she was an excellent, loving and involved mother you would edit her blog down to all the crafts, outings, birth stories, birthday parties, and cooking. If you want her to look like a whack-a-coo you edit it down to all the rants against gay people and church nurseries. If you have enough footage you can pretty much project whatever image you want.

Also, I find the Duggars to be generally kind of stiff and awkward on camera (hello Ben Seewald and his styrofoam cup in the storage closet - all kinds of stiff and uncomfortable in front of the cameras). So I think that plays a part in how people perceive them.

Every meaningful criticism of the Duggars can be applied to the Bates, which other people have already pointed out so I won't bother. The only exception to this I think would be the Duggars perpetual lateness. But it's ok, because Gil has told us that is not an attractive trait and they are not like that..... how convenient. I highly doubt Gil's comments on punctuality just happened to make it into the show, it's most likely a direct comment about Duggar time. Anyone else remember that episode of United Bates of America when the Bates' were going to Big Sandy and they left like 12 hours late. Actions speak a lot louder than words.

[Daenerys]

I'm watching this show and as an introvert, I'm just CRINGING at the amount of people around. Endless noise and crowds and stuff going on. I get that some people like that but I just could not deal. My entire extended family is like 10 living people and they have twice that living in one house. It must be a huge shock going from that to just you and your husband/wife.