Bringing Up Bates

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

I doubt it. Their previous show on TLc was canceled because of ratings. TLC would have no reason to bring them back.

Honestly, I saw them bringing the Bateses onto TLC as a reflection of when they brought all those shows about high order multiples onto the network when Jon and Kate were going down. None of those shows were kept because TLC had no intention of keeping them. They chose the Bateses for the same reason they chose the Hayeses and the Joneses; they are a competition for the current show, they're likeable so people aren't going to be instantly offended by them, but they're too likeable so they're not going to last too long. I don't know the reasoning behind why TLC does this, but it was very clear that TLC was starting to shove the Duggars under the bus (as they did with Jon and Kate) at the same time that they introduced the Bateses to the lineup. I'm pretty sure they had every intention of doing away with the Duggars.

[formergothardite]

FG said likable moments. I am pretty sure people are confusing moments with character.

Exactly. Even Bill Gothard has likable moments. If he didn't he wouldn't have been able to con so many people into following him. People whose character and personality is bad can still have moments when they come off as very likable and nice. Gil and Kelly are like this. Here are two folks who care more about popping out an army for God than they do making sure their existing children are cared for and who sent off their daughters to travel with Bill Gothard, and yet, they can present themselves on television as such wholesome parents that even people who know start liking them and thinking that they are good parents. Actually, writing that makes me think that they are as good at conning people as Bill Gothard. This family is way scarier than the Duggars.

[calimojo]

The impression I get from the show, is that the Bates, let their kids be kids, grow and develop within the framework of their (Wacky, dangerous) religious views. The Duggars seem to feel to honor their religious faiths that they must all fit into it the same way. There doesn't seem to be much wiggle room to how they interpret their fiath and lifestyle. It feels very prescribed and more restrictive than what we have seen thus far with the Bates.

[eh02]

The impression I get from the show, is that the Bates, let their kids be kids, grow and develop within the framework of their (Wacky, dangerous) religious views. The Duggars seem to feel to honor their religious faiths that they must all fit into it the same way. There doesn't seem to be much wiggle room to how they interpret their fiath and lifestyle. It feels very prescribed and more restrictive than what we have seen thus far with the Bates.

Agreed. If we're looking at the big picture, the Bates family is probably no better than the Duggars in terms of their overall beliefs. It'd be naive to think so. But I have no problem acknowledging that their children seem genuinely more happy, close to each other, and particularly, close to their parents, than the J'kids, which shows that Gil and Kelly have done SOMETHING better than the Duggars IMO. They are better parents, plain and simple. Perfect parents - of course not. I have enormous problems with a lot of the beliefs they push on their children, of course. But they are not the worst parents in the world. At least their children feel loved.

I think it's important to have perspective and acknowledge that Gil's connections to IBLP, and potentially exposing his daughters to a predator, are very serious and awful, but that they don't necessarily define his entire relationship with his kids, either. Nothing can excuse his connections to IBLP and how that directly and indirectly affects his family, at least to me, but I think it's pretty obvious that they are at least much better at "walking the walk" of being family oriented vs. the Duggars. The Duggars run like a machine, and no one feels special or important. When the Bates parents talking about each child being an individual blessing and being very special, they seem genuine. That's a stark comparison to Jboob and especially Jchelle who seem to think kids are a precious blessing sent from God to do your laundry.

[DuggarsTheEndIsNear]

Agreed. If we're looking at the big picture, the Bates family is probably no better than the Duggars in terms of their overall beliefs. It'd be naive to think so. But I have no problem acknowledging that their children seem genuinely more happy, close to each other, and particularly, close to their parents, than the J'kids, which shows that Gil and Kelly have done SOMETHING better than the Duggars IMO. They are better parents, plain and simple. Perfect parents - of course not. I have enormous problems with a lot of the beliefs they push on their children, of course. But they are not the worst parents in the world. At least their children feel loved.

I think it's important to have perspective and acknowledge that Gil's connections to IBLP, and potentially exposing his daughters to a predator, are very serious and awful, but that they don't necessarily define his entire relationship with his kids, either. Nothing can excuse his connections to IBLP and how that directly and indirectly affects his family, at least to me, but I think it's pretty obvious that they are at least much better at "walking the walk" of being family oriented vs. the Duggars. The Duggars run like a machine, and no one feels special or important. When the Bates parents talking about each child being an individual blessing and being very special, they seem genuine. That's a stark comparison to Jboob and especially Jchelle who seem to think kids are a precious blessing sent from God to do your laundry.

Along the lines of "none of the Duggars are made to feel special," when running through her children, Michelle can list almost nothing past the first couple that doesn't center around their birth/pregnancy/first couple months after; and JB very rarely says anything at all about his kids and their personalities. And, even precious baby Josie has to share a birthday party with her sister and aunt (even though the media neglects the second two).

The Kelly and Gil, on the other hand, can talk about the personality of their kids as they are now. That alone shows that their kids are seen as more than a number to their parents, which is a hell of a lot better than the Duggar parents. I can't say how birthdays are handled in the family for sure, but I distinctly remember that Josie and Callie (who are two days apart) got their own posts from all the different family instagram accounts, which is more than I remember happening for the 3 Duggar girls.

edited because sometimes I forget to make sure the sentences make sense lol

[calimojo]

People are complex and rarely all good, or all evil. Hell, even Hitler liked dogs and was an artist and we know he was a monster.

Gil and Kelly voluntarily belong to a dangerous religious group that restricts rights of women, downplays the importance of education, preaches intolerance to people who have different view, sexual orientation, etc., turn virginity and courtship into a form of idolatry, also turn fertility into a form of idolatry, many actively campaign to restrict rights of women and LGBT, etc. I think we all agree that these are terrible things and I have only skimmed the surface with that list.

However to paint them as pure evil is wrong as well, because unless we understand the complexities of humanity, it becomes very hard to effect change. Kelly and Gil clearly love their children, and compared to other "Royal" Fundies, seem to give them a better home education, allow them more room to grow and develop their own personalities, and it would seem, are willing to make some adaptations in some of their rules when it becomes clear they don't work well.

If we ever want to change people like Gil and Kelly, the way we are going to do that is if we appeal to the love they have for their children. If we can use our arguments against the cult to show how it damages, limits and impinges on the rights of their children, we might be able to get them to examine their own values and beliefs.

Already, we have seen somewhat superficial examples of this with both the Duggars and Bates. In the style of dress for example, we have seen them be influenced to a degree by the world around them. And after Zach's courtship ended, we see that the Bates parents have revisited their ideas on Courtship to a degree.

To paint them as evil leaves them as one dimensional, and there is no room to grow when we see them that way. To acknowledge that they are complex, have both misguided, hurtful and wrong ideas, mixed in with love, kindness, etc, it may be possible to exert some influence on them, or, at least put them public enough that they have to face some hard questions about the past and Gil's role with the BoD.

[RosyDaisy]

These likeable moments are a smoke screen for something far worse. We are only seeing what the network and the Bates want us to see. They are not better parents, not by a long shot.

[Ralar]

I agree with eh02.

My husband is infertile from a childhood illness. We adopted a little girl shortly after we got news of his infertility. When our daughter was six, my SIL became pregnant. What she did next was incredibly insensitive to me.

She apparently thought that, six years after learning of our infertility, I could not bear news about a pregnancy. I mean, I'd known lots of people who'd become pregnant during that time and survived just fine--been happy for them, in fact. I was busy with my little girl, after all. Anyhow, she told my husband the news in a secretive way, and then asked if he could tell me.

Of course, my husband's family is very avoidant and terrified of emotion. Maybe she transferred her own grief about my husband's infertility (if she had any) over to me. But I thought it was weird and insulting to treat me like a fragile creature that would collapse with what really was happy news.

One of my girlfriends had been dealing with infertility for 8 years, trying everything possible to get pregnant. At her surprise birthday party, her SIL announced her pregnancy. How is that for sealing one's thunder and making her feel crappy at the same time.

[memabelle]

Now that the Bates family has a show on a Christian network, I would like them to address their beliefs on camera. As so many of you have rightly pointed out, if you truly believe in something, you shouldn't feel you have to hide it. If you truly believe in something, you can defend it against people's criticisms. It's very telling that the dangerous religious beliefs of the Bateses and the Duggars are always downplayed in/to the media.

[formergothardite]

Wasn't once on one of the very first times they got on the Duggar's show Kelly asked to name all her kids or name something to do with her children and she admitted she couldn't? Does anyone remember that? I also remember once they were being interviewed by a news station and kids were shown climbing on the table and sitting on it to eat. And when they were building the new house Kelly swore up and down that the kids begged them to build big rooms so that they can be together because they didn't want privacy. :roll: It was practically word for word what the Duggars claim. I think the Bates just have more outgoing personalities much like their parents and that is why they come off as more personable. I don't think that Gil and Kelly are really parenting any better than the Duggars.

[meep]

Wasn't once on one of the very first times they got on the Duggar's show Kelly asked to name all her kids or name something to do with her children and she admitted she couldn't? Does anyone remember that? I also remember once they were being interviewed by a news station and kids were shown climbing on the table and sitting on it to eat. And when they were building the new house Kelly swore up and down that the kids begged them to build big rooms so that they can be together because they didn't want privacy. :roll: It was practically word for word what the Duggars claim. I think the Bates just have more outgoing personalities much like their parents and that is why they come off as more personable. I don't think that Gil and Kelly are really parenting any better than the Duggars.

Yep! I remember them saying the same thing about the bedrooms. Not necessarily that the kids didn't ask for that...because they would never dare say otherwise.

[singsingsing]

The Bates house doesn't have those big bedrooms like the Duggars, though - they're kind of split up. Alyssa was sharing her room with only one other sister before she left to get married.

[calimojo]

Weird thing I just noticed, but when Gil was helping with the Dry wall, I noticed that he was applying the joint compound directly over a big gap where 2 sheets of drywall meet. I am not expert, but I am pretty sure you have to put tape between the two pieces, and then you put the joint compound or the sticky stuff, whatever it is called, on top of that and smooth it out so when you paint it is a smooth surface. Without that Tape, the gap will show through eventually.

[Alexa]

I felt there was a little snark on Alyssa from her sisters after she announced her pregnancy. The girls seemed mad that Alyssa had told a bunch of other people before telling anyone in the Bates family. It was also interesting how in the beginning 2 of the girls mentioned how Whitney was like another sister and Chad another brother now, but how Alyssa and her husband were so far away they weren't as close. Might be some tension there? I thought Erin handled all the baby excitement really well, I would not have been able to go to the shower and probably would have cried at Alyssás announcement, but that's just me.

I really liked seeing the girls cook with actual chicken and fresh potatoes, not frozen or processed. I loved how one daughter said if they didn't like her cooking they could do it themselves. Not saying they're any better than the Duggars, but could you imagine one of the Duggar girls saying that? Heck no, they'd be apologizing about not being a better cook of chicken nuggets and tater tots and talk about how with God's grace they were learning to be a better cook.

[calimojo]

when I was a kid, the expression "bun in the Oven" was considered vulgar. I know it is silly, but it still strikes me that way. In my area, that was often the term applied to a woman who was pregnant outside of marriage. "Knocked Up" was the same way. They were both used in derogatory ways to refer to a woman who was not married and "in trouble'.

Alyssa, doesn't seem as warm as the rest of the girls. Pretty girl, though she and Erin both need some help with the eyebrow situation, but she didn't give off the same warmth, yet, but she had little screen time compared to some of the others.

I like that the show seems to focus on the Boys as much as the Girls. It seems on the Duggars, the girls are the focus and the boys get very little screen time, other than Josh, and Jackson

[Daenerys]

As I said before, I understand their belief systems are messed up, I understand the terrible things they promote, but that doesn't mean that they are pure evil. Likeable doesn't mean that I agree with them. Likeable doesn't mean I want to follow in their footsteps. Likeable doesn't mean that they're absolved from their sins. Their personalities are not their beliefs.

I think a big difference is that unlike the Duggars, they all seem to *have* personalities and be living their life, rather than reading off a script. It doesn't come off as deliberately faked and patronising in the same way. I can't watch 19KAC because I spend the whole of it wanting to smack Michelle. There isn't a 'lost boys' situation with the Bates where you can't even tell them apart.

[Peas n carrots]

Agreed. If we're looking at the big picture, the Bates family is probably no better than the Duggars in terms of their overall beliefs. It'd be naive to think so. But I have no problem acknowledging that their children seem genuinely more happy, close to each other, and particularly, close to their parents, than the J'kids, which shows that Gil and Kelly have done SOMETHING better than the Duggars IMO. They are better parents, plain and simple. Perfect parents - of course not. I have enormous problems with a lot of the beliefs they push on their children, of course. But they are not the worst parents in the world. At least their children feel loved.

I think it's important to have perspective and acknowledge that Gil's connections to IBLP, and potentially exposing his daughters to a predator, are very serious and awful, but that they don't necessarily define his entire relationship with his kids, either. Nothing can excuse his connections to IBLP and how that directly and indirectly affects his family, at least to me, but I think it's pretty obvious that they are at least much better at "walking the walk" of being family oriented vs. the Duggars. The Duggars run like a machine, and no one feels special or important. When the Bates parents talking about each child being an individual blessing and being very special, they seem genuine. That's a stark comparison to Jboob and especially Jchelle who seem to think kids are a precious blessing sent from God to do your laundry.

The first few pages of this thread, with the exception of a few comments were a giant Bates circle jerk. FG and others had to come in and point out that the Bates are not what the appear to be and you can't not forget that when watching their show.

[formergothardite]

The Bates house doesn't have those big bedrooms like the Duggars, though - they're kind of split up. Alyssa was sharing her room with only one other sister before she left to get married.

I need to find the video but they had five bedrooms but like eight girls slept in one because that is what Kelly claimed they wanted. It could be that later they moved out, but originally they had a whole bunch in one bedroom.

[singsingsing]

Oh yeah, I'm just saying they didn't have the single huge bedroom for the girls and single huge bedroom for the boys like the Duggars.

And whoever said this kind of lifestyle is an introvert's nightmare was spot on. I'm an introvert and I'm cringing just thinking about it. Yeah, sometimes I need to be brought out of my bubble, but I still need to have my own space to retreat to - doesn't sound like they get much of that. Even if they want to leave the house they have to take someone else with them.

[Peas n carrots]

Oh yeah, I'm just saying they didn't have the single huge bedroom for the girls and single huge bedroom for the boys like the Duggars.

And whoever said this kind of lifestyle is an introvert's nightmare was spot on. I'm an introvert and I'm cringing just thinking about it. Yeah, sometimes I need to be brought out of my bubble, but I still need to have my own space to retreat to - doesn't sound like they get much of that. Even if they want to leave the house they have to take someone else with them.

I'm very gregarious but I find after a day on my job (real estate so I'm always talking to people) I just need quiet time at the end of the day to recharge. I couldn't imagine being in a place that borderline institutional for the amount of children all being in one place. There would never be a single quiet moment. Also I imagine some of the older children could get fairly resentful of constantly having small children around and helping the parents cater to their needs.

[singsingsing]

I honestly think I'd lose my mind, even if it was all I'd ever known. And then to have no prospect of peace and quiet, ever - to know that at best you might get a year or so with your husband alone once you marry, before a baby enters the picture - and then another, and another, and another - I think even if I bought into the ideology, the lifestyle, the religion, that alone would tempt me to pack it up and leave.

[HereticHick]

I watched the first episode on Youtube last night (thanks to the person who posted it) and all the video clips on the UP website today. That doesn't mean that I'm a "Bates leghumper" or a "Bates justifier" or participating in a "Bates circle jerk." The Bates are part of a dangerous cult. However, I am not **consumed** with Bates hatred. I wasn't raised to see the world in black and white, but I was raised to believe that obsessive hate, especially driven by knee-jerk responses, is incredibly self-destructive (and, ahem, unChristian, which is important to me, but I am not saying that it should be important to anyone else).

I'm interested in the Bates for 2 main reasons: they are from "my neck of the woods" and I am always fascinated by media portrayals of those of us from Appalachia, and I have close family and friends who work for several different television networks--including TLC--so I am fascinated to watch how they are being portrayed, and especially to see what "lessons have been learned" from their previous reality tv experiences, and how, if the show continues, reality tv will change them.

A few observations:

1. Its interesting to see that many of us thought Erin was a stuck up priss at first, and now we've warmed to her.

2. The whole family seems more articulate, and with a better vocabulary than the Duggars. There were a number of words used that surprised me, like "variables." Yes, I know some of you feel that those of us with Appalachian accents are knuckle-dragging troglodytes.

3. The interviews seem so much more relaxed that those of the Duggars, which helps the Bates to be more articulate, I think. Is it perhaps that the Duggars are more scripted? Do JB and Michelle insist on a metric ton of Gothardite catch phrases in every interview?

4. My bottom line: the Bates seem to be much less self-conscious than the Duggars on camera--which makes them more articulate and more likeable. What I'd like to know is, is this the doing of the show producers, or of the parents? Does Michelle tell the kids to only say X Y & Z and be a good Christian before the cameras, and Kelly only says "hey, be yourself?" And will the Bates kids grow more self-conscious as the show goes on?

5. Have we ever heard a Duggar utter the word "boyfriend" or "girlfriend"? Or talk about how they were physically attracted to their now-spouse? I don't think so!

6. If you haven't watched the clip on the Up website of the little Bates girls talking about their favorite pet snake, I highly recommend it. I'd like them to take their snake to Arkansas and terrorize the Duggar kids with it.

7. I remember years ago, the Duggars J'slaves talking smack about the Bates girl's fashion, back when the Bates were still in the frumpers. I always assumed the Duggars looked down on the Bates as hicks. But after watching these video clips, I wouldn't be surprised if the Bates think the Duggar kids are a bunch of stuck-up sissies.

8. Alyssa is sooo tiny, and I agree, I think she is enjoying life without a dozen people around at all times. And yeah, she looks waay older than she is.

10. The show, so far, is seriously downplaying their belief system. It will be interesting if they open up on this more in future episodes since they are on a "Christian" network.

[Marshmallow World]

I actually fell asleep before it ended when I watched it on demand last week :lol: I still stand by what I stated earlier: It's very slick, and they seem to be applying lessons learned from the Duggars as far as public likability is concerned.

[Kira]

A few observations:

1. Its interesting to see that many of us thought Erin was a stuck up priss at first, and now we've warmed to her.

2. The whole family seems more articulate, and with a better vocabulary than the Duggars. There were a number of words used that surprised me, like "variables." Yes, I know some of you feel that those of us with Appalachian accents are knuckle-dragging troglodytes.

3. The interviews seem so much more relaxed that those of the Duggars, which helps the Bates to be more articulate, I think. Is it perhaps that the Duggars are more scripted? Do JB and Michelle insist on a metric ton of Gothardite catch phrases in every interview?

4. My bottom line: the Bates seem to be much less self-conscious than the Duggars on camera--which makes them more articulate and more likeable. What I'd like to know is, is this the doing of the show producers, or of the parents? Does Michelle tell the kids to only say X Y & Z and be a good Christian before the cameras, and Kelly only says "hey, be yourself?" And will the Bates kids grow more self-conscious as the show goes on?

5. Have we ever heard a Duggar utter the word "boyfriend" or "girlfriend"? Or talk about how they were physically attracted to their now-spouse? I don't think so!

6. If you haven't watched the clip on the Up website of the little Bates girls talking about their favorite pet snake, I highly recommend it. I'd like them to take their snake to Arkansas and terrorize the Duggar kids with it.

7. I remember years ago, the Duggars J'slaves talking smack about the Bates girl's fashion, back when the Bates were still in the frumpers. I always assumed the Duggars looked down on the Bates as hicks. But after watching these video clips, I wouldn't be surprised if the Bates think the Duggar kids are a bunch of stuck-up sissies.

8. Alyssa is sooo tiny, and I agree, I think she is enjoying life without a dozen people around at all times. And yeah, she looks waay older than she is.

10. The show, so far, is seriously downplaying their belief system. It will be interesting if they open up on this more in future episodes since they are on a "Christian" network.

3. The Bates show feels just as scripted as "19 Kids". In my opinion the Bates seemed fake. Of course you didn't here any Gothard phrases. Their going to downplay their ties to Gothard.

4. Maybe Gil and Kelly are telling their kids to say XYZ on tv :mindblowing:

5. Yes, The Duggars use the terms boyfriend and girlfriend. I know I've seen it used on their social media.

7. Is this true? I think the Bates and Duggars are good friends. A few of the Bates children spent the Christmas/New Year holiday with the Duggars.

10. I think they will continue to downplay their beliefs. They may be on a Christian network, but some of their beliefs could turn off viewers.

[Majessasticpearls]

I didn't really see tension between the girls and Alyssa. I just saw their comments of a representation of how much "realer" they are than the Duggar's. The duggars play it up as if there is never any conflicts,and that they are all truly best friends though they come off as very awkward together. Tori and Carlin also seem very blunt-really,I'd be a little annoyed if my sister told her friends and husbands family before us!

It was nice to see Nathan and Lawson's reaction to Alyssa's pregnancy. It wasn't negative,but they seemed to find being 19 and pregnant as crazy as we do!

Alyssa always struck me as the practical,lay it all out type. Not as blunt and outspoken as Carlin and Tori,but I feel like she's the manager of the family. I really liked all of the girls,especially Josie and Katie.