Kristina of Keepsakes pregnant and due #4 in March

[Palimpsest]

I must have missed it, I tried to answer everything. There were loads of questions...it was hard to keep up.

Kristina, I asked a few quite non-threatening, non-Biblical, and open-ended questions a few pages back that you ignored.

Kristina, do you think your views on anything have changed [in the last 6 years]?

If so, what?

Do you have any regrets over anything you have written [here or on your blog/Facebook]?

Looking back, do you think you could have phrased things differently to better explain your beliefs?

And adding to that last one: if so, what?

I still find it hard to believe that you have not changed your views on anything between the ages of 18 and 24, given everything that has happened in your life. Here's your chance to explain and demonstrate to us how you have matured and grown as a person and, if you like, in your faith.

I also have to point out that I never called you a "bad" mother (and I don't think anyone else has either.) So please don't twist our words either. I merely advised people against assuming that you were a "wonderful" mother without knowing more about your views on parenting. People advising you about not using corporal punishment are suggesting ways in which you could improve your parenting - granted in our very strong opinions. You can take the advice or leave it. For the record, I think you do your best to be a very good mother.

[3_and_counting]

Why conflate being for marriage equality with being non-religious? Many LGBT people and those who support them are religious. I am a Christian and my support of marriage equality is because of my faith, not in spite of it. I live in the UK and when equal marriage was being debated in the House of Commons, several MPs said the same thing. Our Prime Minister is a Conservative and says he is a Christian, and is the one who brought in equal marriage.

I will say that I'm not happy about conflating gluttony (which is being greedy and wasteful with food) and being fat/plus-size (I self-ID as fat but know not everyone is comfortable with the term). Plenty of thin people are gluttons. I am fat and not a glutton. It has nothing to do with body size or shape, but is an attitude.

I shouldn't have said non- religious. There are many religious gays out there. Biblically, you can't be gay and Christian.

[formergothardite]

Going by what you are saying, isn't everyone who votes guilty of this? I mean, if when I vote I am forcing my religious views on them, aren't they by default forcing their non-religious views on me when they vote for gay marriage?

Nope. This is a lie that has been fed to you. Hopefully this will make it easier for you to see how ridiculous a claim this is. Gay marriage IS a religious view to some, please stop acting like it isn't.

Church A believes that being gay is biblical, but all couples, gay and straight, should wait till after a legal marriage to live together/have sex/start a family, this is a core part of their religious beliefs.

Church B believes that being gay is a sin and won't allow gay members or perform gay marriages.

The members of Church B vote to not allow legal gay marriages, this prevents the members of Church A from practicing their religion and forces them to instead follow the teaching of Church B.

The members of Church A vote for legal gay marriage. It in no way impacts Church B. They still can preach being gay is a sin. They still don't have to allow gay members or perform gay marriages. They do not have to follow Church A's teachings at all. They don't even have to talk to each other.

You are Church B. You are telling the Christian gay members in America that they must follow your religion, no matter if they don't agree with it.

Now before you start claiming that making gay marriage legal will force all churches to be pro-gay, just realize that all those stories you have heard are nothing but propaganda and are easily disproven. The church I was raised in wouldn't marry me because my husband was divorced. There are churches that won't marry couples because one is black. Churches don't have to marry couples for pretty much any reason they want. Now if they are a public business or start getting involved in politics, things change. But the Little Fundamental KJV The Bible Is Literal Until It Comes to Gluttony church down the road that doesn't do those things, nothing is going to change for them.

So it comes back to why you get to pass laws telling other churches that they can't practice their religion?

Also, you really, don't want to discuss why you don't take the verses about gluttony literally, do you?

[FoxyMoxie]

I shouldn't have said non- religious. There are many religious gays out there. Biblically, you can't be gay and Christian.

Sorry, nope, not true. There are many LGBT (just gay) Christians. Being LGBT is who God made a person - why is that incompatible with being a Christian? I am a bisexual Christian woman (Anglican aka Episcopalian). I know many LGBT evangelicals, including those who believe they should be celibate (I disagree but I respect what they feel God is calling them to do). Have you not heard of Vicky Beeching? She's a lesbian and an evangelical Christian singer/songwriter and theologian.

Also, not all Christians rely on the Bible alone - historically my denomination uses Scripture, Tradition and Reason together, and I would add the Wesleyan aspect of Experience too.

[3_and_counting]

Kristina, I asked a few quite non-threatening, non-Biblical, and open-ended questions a few pages back that you ignored.

Kristina, do you think your views on anything have changed [in the last 6 years]?

If so, what?

Do you have any regrets over anything you have written [here or on your blog/Facebook]?

Looking back, do you think you could have phrased things differently to better explain your beliefs?

And adding to that last one: if so, what?

I still find it hard to believe that you have not changed your views on anything between the ages of 18 and 24, given everything that has happened in your life. Here's your chance to explain and demonstrate to us how you have matured and grown as a person and, if you like, in your faith.

I also have to point out that I never called you a "bad" mother (and I don't think anyone else has either.) So please don't twist our words either. I merely advised people against assuming that you were a "wonderful" mother without knowing more about your views on parenting. People advising you about not using corporal punishment are suggesting ways in which you could improve your parenting - granted in our very strong opinions. You can take the advice or leave it. For the record, I think you do your best to be a very good mother.

I would have to say that no, my views have no changed. I've come to realize some things in my life personally but, no, my views have not changed.

I think if everyone looked back over time there are things they would say differently and explain better.

I'm a young mother, with young children. Parenting is a learning process and each child is different and needs different attention. I'm doing the best I can in my parenting, I'm not claiming to be perfect...I'm still learning.

[FoxyMoxie]

Also derp, the above is supposed to read 'LGBT (NOT just gay) Christians'.

[3_and_counting]

Nope. This is a lie that has been fed to you. Hopefully this will make it easier for you to see how ridiculous a claim this is. Gay marriage IS a religious view to some, please stop acting like it isn't.

Church A believes that being gay is biblical, but all couples, gay and straight, should wait till after a legal marriage to live together/have sex/start a family, this is a core part of their religious beliefs.

Church B believes that being gay is a sin and won't allow gay members or perform gay marriages.

The members of Church B vote to not allow legal gay marriages, this prevents the members of Church A from practicing their religion and forces them to instead follow the teaching of Church B.

The members of Church A vote for legal gay marriage. It in no way impacts Church B. They still can preach being gay is a sin. They still don't have to allow gay members or perform gay marriages. They do not have to follow Church A's teachings at all. They don't even have to talk to each other.

You are Church B. You are telling the Christian gay members in America that they must follow your religion, no matter if they don't agree with it.

Now before you start claiming that making gay marriage legal will force all churches to be pro-gay, just realize that all those stories you have heard are nothing but propaganda and are easily disproven. The church I was raised in wouldn't marry me because my husband was divorced. There are churches that won't marry couples because one is black. Churches don't have to marry couples for pretty much any reason they want. Now if they are a public business or start getting involved in politics, things change. But the Little Fundamental KJV The Bible Is Literal Until It Comes to Gluttony church down the road that doesn't do those things, nothing is going to change for them.

So it comes back to why you get to pass laws telling other churches that they can't practice their religion?

Also, you really, don't want to discuss why you don't take the verses about gluttony literally, do you?

I'm not refusing, I forgot to add it to my last post.

Our church preaches against gluttony. I personally try my best to not overeat. Churches tend to not take a firm stand on gluttony because then there would be no one in church. Gluttony is like lying, everyone does it. Not that it should not be taken seriously because it should.

[FoxyMoxie]

So it's wrong to expel gluttons from church but who cares about those nasty gays, right?

Even if same-gender sexual activity (not the same as being gay or bi in orientation) was sinful, how is it any worse than gluttony? Paul makes it pretty clear that there aren't sins that are worse than any other.

[formergothardite]

I'm not refusing, I forgot to add it to my last post.

Our church preaches against gluttony. I personally try my best to not overeat. Churches tend to not take a firm stand on gluttony because then there would be no one in church. Gluttony is like lying, everyone does it. Not that it should not be taken seriously because it should.

So do you understand from this why if Josh or your church votes against gay marriage they are voting to force their religious beliefs on other churches?

So because everyone does it, it is okay to have church leaders who are gluttons? It is okay to sit and watch people eat too much at church events? Josh is not going to stand up and speak out when he sees this? He isn't going to make FB posts about it since everybody does it? That article I posted was spot on. It is all a numbers game. Less people are gay, so it is okay to rant about that and pass laws against that. But more people are gluttons so it would be just down right rude for people to bring it up. And the government better not pass laws dealing with this sin.

Yes, the Bible says to not hang around gluttons, yes the sin of Sodom included gluttons, yes gluttony is called an abomination, yes the Bible says it is better to slit your throat than to be a glutton, but yet, your initial reaction was that I was being ridiculous? What about those verses is ridiculous?

And if everyone does it, doesn't it just mean that Josh and your church should spend MORE time discussing it? They should put more emphasis on this then they do gay marriage? When Josh had his FB page public, there was a shocking lack of posts about gluttony.

ETA: Did you read the Treaty of Tripoli? It sort of blows the idea of this being founded a Christian nation out of the water.

[nokidsmom]

Our church preaches against gluttony. I personally try my best to not overeat. Churches tend to not take a firm stand on gluttony because then there would be no one in church. Gluttony is like lying, everyone does it. Not that it should not be taken seriously because it should.

Re: the bolded. Well, isn't that picking and choosing then? The churches won't preach against gluttony because there will be no one in church (which you are probably right btw) but are totally fine with preaching that being gay is a sin, which incidentally, would be something that they know their congregation would agree with? Did you ever think about that?

[fun2beme]

Why conflate being for marriage equality with being non-religious? Many LGBT people and those who support them are religious. I am a Christian and my support of marriage equality is because of my faith, not in spite of it. I live in the UK and when equal marriage was being debated in the House of Commons, several MPs said the same thing. Our Prime Minister is a Conservative and says he is a Christian, and is the one who brought in equal marriage.

I will say that I'm not happy about conflating gluttony (which is being greedy and wasteful with food) and being fat/plus-size (I self-ID as fat but know not everyone is comfortable with the term). Plenty of thin people are gluttons. I am fat and not a glutton. It has nothing to do with body size or shape, but is an attitude.

Ugh - I just typed in a reply to this and then my laptop went kerflukey. I hope my prior comment about comparing gluttony (which I think is usually - but not always - a choice) to homosexuality which isn't a choice. I did not at all mean that being overweight meant that one is a glutton. As a former very overweight/borderline obese person, I know this is not the truth.

[3_and_counting]

So it's wrong to expel gluttons from church but who cares about those nasty gays, right?

Even if same-gender sexual activity (not the same as being gay or bi in orientation) was sinful, how is it any worse than gluttony? Paul makes it pretty clear that there aren't sins that are worse than any other.

Gays can come to our church if They so choose, they just can't join. We have no qualms about them coming to church.

[formergothardite]

There are thin people who are gluttons. And people who eat a healthy, balanced diet and don't stuff themselves that appear to be heavier, but it is just their body type.

I have been to enough IFB KJV only church potlucks and events where the church leaders joked about how much food they ate and most people ate lots and lots of high calorie food, that I would be surprised if Kristina's church was filled with church leaders who made sure they never ate too much and started the potlucks reminding people not to fall into the sin of gluttony because this is a serious sin and the Bible says that believers should not hang about gluttons.

Bill Gothard was big on the sin of gluttony, at least he was consistent.

[3_and_counting]

Look, Josh has a cousin that is gay, I have friends that are gay. We don't go out of our way to avoid them but We also don't go out of our way to spend time with them. They know where we stand, we don't constantly preach to them or make our times together awkward.

I think the assumption here is that we hate anyone gay, that is simply not the truth. We have no problem with the person, we just don't agree with their lifestyle.

[3_and_counting]

There are thin people who are gluttons. And people who eat a healthy, balanced diet and don't stuff themselves that appear to be heavier, but it is just their body type.

I have been to enough IFB KJV only church potlucks and events where the church leaders joked about how much food they ate and most people ate lots and lots of high calorie food, that I would be surprised if Kristina's church was filled with church leaders who made sure they never ate too much and started the potlucks reminding people not to fall into the sin of gluttony because this is a serious sin and the Bible says that believers should not hang about gluttons.

Bill Gothard was big on the sin of gluttony, at least he was consistent.

My pastor on many occasions has warned people not to commit the sin of gluttony before a church dinner.

[formergothardite]

I didn't assume you would be mean to gay people to their face. I assume that you and Josh are okay with forcing your religious beliefs on them via the government. If you would vote to deny them legal marriage, that is what you would do. You can't explain how you aren't forcing your beliefs on them.

And think honestly about it. Do you treat your friends who you know are gluttons like you treat your friends who are gay? Do you not go out of your way to spend time with them? Do you make it clear that you don't agree with their lifestyle?

[formergothardite]

My pastor on many occasions has warned people not to commit the sin of gluttony before a church dinner.

That is surprising, but what does he do when he sees people who are gluttons? Does he ban them from being church members? Ban them from being church leaders? Would your church refuse membership to a glutton?

You still haven't explained, why if your church has such a big stance against gluttony that your pastor even warns people about this sin before church dinners, why your initial reaction was that I was ridiculous to bring it up? The Bible says that it is an abomination, that believers should not hang about gluttons, and that it is better to put a knife to your throat, so why would you not treat this sin as seriously as you do homosexuality? Because everyone does it?

[FoxyMoxie]

Gays can come to our church if They so choose, they just can't join. We have no qualms about them coming to church.

What does becoming a member involve? What's the difference? Sorry, in the UK it's not common for churches to have formal membership lists - it's generally only those with closed communion like Brethren. Certainly in the Anglican church you just turn up and join the electoral roll if you've been attending for more than 6 months, and any baptised person can receive communion (some churches insist on communicants being confirmed but it's uncommon).

And it's 'gay people' not 'gays', they're not a different species.

Also, what if someone is gay and a Christian and celibate? What if someone is bisexual and Christian and married to someone of a different gender (so they look like a 'straight' couple)? What if someone is asexual and Christian and totally uninterested in sex at all? What if someone at your church has a baby who is born intersex? The idea that all LGBT/MOGAI*/queer people are homosexual and are all having sex with someone of the same gender is not true.

*MOGAI is an alternative to the 'alphabet soup' - stands for Minority Orientations and Gender, Asexual, Intersex so covers everyone

[FoxyMoxie]

Look, Josh has a cousin that is gay, I have friends that are gay. We don't go out of our way to avoid them but We also don't go out of our way to spend time with them. They know where we stand, we don't constantly preach to them or make our times together awkward.

I think the assumption here is that we hate anyone gay, that is simply not the truth. We have no problem with the person, we just don't agree with their lifestyle.

Being gay is not a lifestyle. You know what people have to do to be gay? Be born attracted to only those of your own gender. That's it. There's no lifestyle involved.

[PrairieGirl]

Look, Josh has a cousin that is gay, I have friends that are gay. We don't go out of our way to avoid them but We also don't go out of our way to spend time with them. They know where we stand, we don't constantly preach to them or make our times together awkward.

I think the assumption here is that we hate anyone gay, that is simply not the truth. We have no problem with the person, we just don't agree with their lifestyle.

Kristina, what would happen if in the future one of your children came out as gay? Would it be as simple as telling them that you do not agree with their lifestyle? Or would it be, as you stated above, that they were no longer Christian? In your eyes, they would be basically be going to hell then, correct?

[3_and_counting]

I didn't assume you would be mean to gay people to their face. I assume that you and Josh are okay with forcing your religious beliefs on them via the government. If you would vote to deny them legal marriage, that is what you would do. You can't explain how you aren't forcing your beliefs on them.

And think honestly about it. Do you treat your friends who you know are gluttons like you treat your friends who are gay? Do you not go out of your way to spend time with them? Do you make it clear that you don't agree with their lifestyle?

I've stated that I don't vote, so this questioning does not apply to me.

[Palimpsest]

I've stated that I don't vote, so this questioning does not apply to me.

Why don't you vote, Kristina?

[FoxyMoxie]

There are thin people who are gluttons. And people who eat a healthy, balanced diet and don't stuff themselves that appear to be heavier, but it is just their body type.

I have been to enough IFB KJV only church potlucks and events where the church leaders joked about how much food they ate and most people ate lots and lots of high calorie food, that I would be surprised if Kristina's church was filled with church leaders who made sure they never ate too much and started the potlucks reminding people not to fall into the sin of gluttony because this is a serious sin and the Bible says that believers should not hang about gluttons.

Bill Gothard was big on the sin of gluttony, at least he was consistent.

While I'm not familiar with church potluck culture, I would frame gluttony as being selfish about food rather than just eating a lot. In Biblical times, someone eating a lot would mean that someone else wouldn't get fed - so that's different to now. While I appreciate your Biblical literalist background, and me being a liberal Christian, you can be a Biblical inerrantist and also put the Bible into context. Context isn't picking and choosing, it's being MORE diligent about reading the Bible. This is isn't me saying that gluttony isn't sinful, I just don't think it can be simply rendered as 'overeating'. I think it's more about depriving others of food through your own greed.

I'm also uncomfortable with distinguishing between good fat people who eat 'healthily' (what is healthy for one is not healthy for another) and bad fat people who eat 'too much'. The truth is that all people deserve dignity and respect, and being healthy is not a moral stance. I have chronic illness - I will never be healthy, so am I a bad fat person? Putting health on a pedestal is a bad idea. I have IBS-d and high fibre foods make me ill, for instance - so I have to have white bread, pasta etc and have to avoid pulses and wholegrains. This seems a very unhealthy diet to outsiders, but 'healthy' food would actually make me ill.

[nolongerIFBx]

I shouldn't have said non- religious. There are many religious gays out there. Biblically, you can't be gay and Christian.

I'm still considered fundie by the definitions that FJ uses but I have to disagree. The act of homosexuality may be a sin, but it does not prevent you from accepting Christ as Savior any more than my lying or gluttony, or--here's one a lot of fundies have trouble with-- pride or arrogance would keep me from being saved. Continuing to practice such behaviors after salvation would cause a rift between me and my Savior, but would not negate my salvation.

[formergothardite]

I've stated that I don't vote, so this questioning does not apply to me.

That is just a way to try to weasel out of answering. It is not becoming. And just adds to the list of why I am so glad I'm not a fundamental Christian anymore. I saw this sort of behavior so much while I was one. When it came to difficult questions, the solution is to find a loop hole so you could get out of answering, not give a real answer. People think the world drove me away from Christianity, but it was mostly Christians.

It doesn't matter if you actually go vote. If you did go vote, you would not support gay rights. Josh, when his facebook page was public made it clear he was very anti-gay rights. And you said you stand with Josh on this subject. When you are anti-gay rights, you are pro-pushing your religion on others. I think it makes you uncomfortable to admit this, so you are going to try every way in the world to get out of doing so. I'm glad you don't vote, but you don't have a problem with other people voting to deny Churches the ability to practice their religious beliefs either.

Do you make it clear to your friends that you don't approve of the gluttonous lifestyle? Can you link to some of the things Josh has posted about gluttony on his FB page(you don't have to link to his actual page, just another page that uses the same thing). Can you describe how Josh and you have taken a stand against this sin that you admit is so prevalent in churches?