Kristina of Keepsakes pregnant and due #4 in March

[thoughtful]

It seems the more ubiquitous the biblical violation, the more invisible it becomes.

I can’t help but wonder if biblical condemnation is often a numbers game.

I love it!

This thread, and the variations of opinions about Kristina, has made me think, as I often do, about the issue of how much age and upbringing enter into my opinion of a fundie.

It is tough -- those of us who want to give someone a break because they are young, because they were raised in this idiocy and not exposed to other views, because there are a few aspects of their beliefs that are not as bad as some other fundies, can be tempted to be sympathetic. I'm old enough to have seen several generations grow up, I have "teacher brain," I really want to see the best in young people.

But there is a point beyond which I can't give an adult, even a young, raised-in-the-crap adult, the benefit of the doubt.

I may sigh and quote Maxwell Smart

[bBvideo 560,340:2b1n76a8]

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when it comes to Kristina's opinions of submission (she hasn't answered my questions about submission in marriage, but she did criticize Debi Pearl:

http://freejinger.yuku.com/topic/1427#.VGt5s8mf2-c

kristinaskeeps.blogspot.com/2010/03/pearls-and-no-greater-joy-introduction.html

BTW, Kristina, you promised that there would be "many more" posts about the Pearls -- what happened? I know you've given up blogging, but you could tell people here or on Facebook -- do you want to give your opinions of To Train Up a Child?).

But this thread has made it clear that Kristina is not a "not so bad" Fundie, especially when it comes to the rights of others and raising her children. That doesn't mean that I don't have hope for her.

Kristina, I hope that logic and knowledge will someday break through in your mind. You may feel very settled in your beliefs, but your posts have made it clear how you have to do mental gymnastics, and ignore and twist things about life, people, and the Bible, to stick with them.

I hope you realize that change, including change in one's convictions and beliefs, can be a good thing.

I hope you learn how our government works, and how important (to you and to all of us) the separation of church and state is.

I hope you recognize that your "literal" view of the Bible is actually an interpretation, and that other interpretations are possible and may be wonderful.

I hope your bigotry ends.

I hope you get help, very soon, in educating your children, from someone whose logic, knowledge of history and our country, and grasp of the English language is better than yours. I don't know anything about your math skills, scientific knowledge, or ability in the arts, but you may need help there, too (especially if you believe in YEC -- there's a question we forgot to ask!). I don't say this disdainfully -- I am a college-educated, professional teacher, and I wouldn't dare homeschool every age or subject. Nor would I assume that the stuff they need when very young is the easiest stuff.

I hope you have the courage to expose your children to many viewpoints about life, religion, and the rights of all. If your faith is as strong, worthwhile and correct as you think it is, you have nothing to fear from outside views.

I hope your husband continues to be well and to treat you well. But, if something goes wrong, either with his health or his treatment of you, I hope you will recognize that things like higher education and/or getting the help of a women's shelter might be good for you.

I hope that continuously having babies doesn't destroy your health or your ability to raise, love and financially support them all, and that you recognize it if things are going that way, and start using birth control.

Most of all, I hope you stop inflicting pain on your children. I bet that you are smart enough to learn why the idea of "defiance" is moot, and clever enough to come up with non-painful consequences and using teaching, redirection, and reward to guide their behavior.

[Eponine]

The cognitive dissonance here interests me. You believe women should only get higher education through correspondence courses (or, I assume, online) but at the same time you want to go to female doctors. Your female doctor presumably went to a real, brick-and-mortar university - therefore as her patient, you're supporting her choice to attend a university, possibly leaving home. Would you trust your health to a doctor who only received their medical degree via correspondence? Do you vet your doctor to make sure she went to a correspondence/online school, or that she lived close to home with her parents while attending school, or whether she was unmarried while attending school?

And if you answer "no" to those: if you're using a female doctor who went away to a real university, isn't that encouraging others to not follow the way of life you think is the most godly? How do you reconcile that?

Disclaimer: I don't think all online degrees are bad in the medical field for continuing education (the university I work for has a few online nursing courses), but I've never heard of a credible way to get a medical degree entirely online or via correspondence.

Kristina, can you address my question? It might be a little safer than the gay marriage issue and I'm super curious as to how you justify it or how you find a doctor. :whistle:

Also on the Treaty of Tripoli - LOL at any expectation that a fundie would respond to it without just dismissing it as a later idea or forgery or something (as mentioned above). When verifiable facts disagree with their worldview it's just an immediate fingers-in-the-ears reaction. Always. Why bother finding out about real life when they can live comfortably in their imaginary land?

[Palimpsest]

Well put, Thoughtful.

I think a big part of my frustration with Kristina is that I see such potential in her. I think she is very intelligent and has the capacity for critical thought, but her upbringing and, perhaps, her own personality stop her from using her brains. I want Kristina to grow intellectually, and not necessarily reject her faith, but definitely to question and push the boundaries. Instead she is happy to repeat and defend the (mis)information she has been given ad infinitum and seemingly without question.

I don't suffer fools gladly. I have even less patience when people I don't think to be fools dig their heels in and make themselves seem stupid. And I can't be the only person to have said "ouch" when Treemom nailed her on Romans I.

Her refusal to stretch, I find obstinate. Understandable to a large extent, but obstinate. You can only bash your head against the brick wall of obstinacy so many times without getting a headache. Kristina gives me a headache.

Be well, Kristina. I don't wish you or your family ill at all.

[fundiefan]

Apparently Kristina has another migraine today. Or, she just isn't coming back because her words have been proven ignorant and she is incapable of further argument. "The bible says so" doesn't fly with those who don't believe the bible is from any god or literal or whatever.

I looked up Romans I because I am not a bible scholar. I gotta' say the fundie anti-homosexual argument gets weaker every time I look into their source material.

[treemom]

To be fair, Romans 1 doesn't actually mention gluttony, but the sins it does mention are typically seen in other parts of the bible mentioned with gluttony. There is also the heavy implication that abusing your body is part of what is being discussed there.

Since the question was where is obesity like being gay, I think you can argue Romans 1 and many other parts of the bible demonstrate that gluttony is as much of a problem as any sexual sin.

[fundiefan]

I'm on a bible education kick. For the moment.

Proverbs 23:2King James Version (KJV):

And put a knife to thy throat, if thou be a man given to appetite.

[anniebgood]

Kristina,

Paul turned the tables on those judging people in Romans 1, with the 1st verse of Romans 2 and goes on to say that those who judge will be judged as well. Don't cherry pick chapters, there are some of us who've read the Bible forward and backward will show you things that contradict your beliefs. How about the 2 separate creation stories in Genesis, who were the women that Cain and Able married? Where were the other people who populated the earth? Do you truly believe that God, in all his wisdom and omniscient presences, hadn't created other peoples?

:wink-kitty:

[formergothardite]

Apparently Kristina has another migraine today. Or, she just isn't coming back because her words have been proven ignorant and she is incapable of further argument. "The bible says so" doesn't fly with those who don't believe the bible is from any god or literal or whatever.

I looked up Romans I because I am not a bible scholar. I gotta' say the fundie anti-homosexual argument gets weaker every time I look into their source material.

She has been logging on and reading. Hopefully the things written here will make her think. She will be arguing against the Bible being taken literally if she comes back and says that the verses about gluttony don't apply. When it lists the sins of Sodom in Ezekiel, being gay isn't even mentioned, eating too much is. It is even referred to as an abomination. I think it probably is embarrassing to her that she didn't know these things and her church hasn't taught them, but there is no way her and Josh are going to start treating gluttony like they do homosexuality. The sin of gluttony hits too close to home, it is easier for them to rant against gay people.

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

Oh I'd forgotten what an asshole her husband

Uneducated, underemployed and overfed.

Thank you God for giving this agonist a handsome intelligent, hard working, high earning husband.

Doesn't seem fair does it Kristina? You get a hateful loser as a husband & I get a handsome lawyer?

[fun2beme]

To be fair, Romans 1 doesn't actually mention gluttony, but the sins it does mention are typically seen in other parts of the bible mentioned with gluttony. There is also the heavy implication that abusing your body is part of what is being discussed there.

Since the question was where is obesity like being gay, I think you can argue Romans 1 and many other parts of the bible demonstrate that gluttony is as much of a problem as any sexual sin.

Not to go too far off topic, but it seems to me that gluttony is usually a choice (though I know there are medical conditions that may cause over-eating) whereas sexuality isn't. So how can they be equated? Except that I guess fundies think being gay is a choice too.

[3_and_counting]

I will not be having anymore biblical discussions. I have tried stating where I have stand on things about a million times only for it to be rephrased and asked again. We've covered it all.

I will have conversation but, I will not debate with people who don't believe the bible at all.

[treemom]

I will not be having anymore biblical discussions. I have tried stating where I have stand on things about a million times only for it to be rephrased and asked again. We've covered it all.

I will have conversation but, I will not debate with people who don't believe the bible at all.

A huge amount of FJ'ers are Christian. An no, we haven't covered it all. And no you haven't responded on all the things. Which is fine, you are under no obligation to do so, but what you just said was a lie.

[3_and_counting]

Oh I'd forgotten what an asshole her husband

Uneducated, underemployed and overfed.

Thank you God for giving this agonist a handsome intelligent, hard working, high earning husband.

Doesn't seem fair does it Kristina? You get a hateful loser as a husband & I get a handsome lawyer?

THIS is where I get the whole "you're the first to judge" stuff.

All you know is from maybe, what, 3-5 status' that you saw.

Where do you get that he is underemployed? Where do you get overfed? And undereducated....

First off, you know NOTHING about my husband's job. Just because your husband is a lawyer doesn't mean that you can hate on people who aren't. Second, my husband eats 1 sandwich and then 1 meal a day...does that sound like he's overfed to you? Some people are built certain ways no matter how they eat.

Personally speaking, my husband is handsome, hardworking (works 60+ hrs a week) and is a wonderful man. He loves his children dearly and spoils us. Those are the parts you don't know about him.

[PrairieGirl]

I will not be having anymore biblical discussions. I have tried stating where I have stand on things about a million times only for it to be rephrased and asked again. We've covered it all.

I will have conversation but, I will not debate with people who don't believe the bible at all.

May I ask why, Kristina? Surely if your Book is the absolute truth and written on a flawless foundation, there is no reason to fear a healthy debate between yourself and a non-believer.

Please know that I am not asking this in a mocking tone. I am asking with all due respect.

[3_and_counting]

May I ask why, Kristina? Surely if your Book is the absolute truth and written on a flawless foundation, there is no reason to fear a healthy debate between yourself and a non-believer.

Please know that I am not asking this in a mocking tone. I am asking with all due respect.

Because it's always twisted from what I meant. Its not healthy debate when it all gets twisted into something else.

[3_and_counting]

A huge amount of FJ'ers are Christian. An no, we haven't covered it all. And no you haven't responded on all the things. Which is fine, you are under no obligation to do so, but what you just said was a lie.

What have I missed? I thought I had covered all the questions.

[treemom]

What have I missed? I thought I had covered all the questions.

Well I have asked several you have ignored.

[3_and_counting]

Well I have asked several you have ignored.

I must have missed it, I tried to answer everything. There were loads of questions...it was hard to keep up.

[PrairieGirl]

I must have missed it, I tried to answer everything. There were loads of questions...it was hard to keep up.

Does anyone think we should start a thread specifically to post questions and only questions for K to answer since this thread is becoming so long? This isn't a sarcastic questions either.

[formergothardite]

I will not be having anymore biblical discussions. I have tried stating where I have stand on things about a million times only for it to be rephrased and asked again. We've covered it all.

I will have conversation but, I will not debate with people who don't believe the bible at all.

The absolute only reason you would say this is if you are incapable of defending your beliefs using the Bible. If you, a born again Christian(technically I have been saved, Baptized, dedicated my life to Christ, taught Sunday School for years. VBS for years, long time nursery worker, memorized books of the Bible until I lost the faith) can't debate the Bible, why in the world would I ever want to be a Christian again? Seriously, this is a real question. One of the things that help lead me away from the faith is things like you just wrote. The fact that Christians appeared to be terrified of difficult biblical discussions.

You do nothing except remind me why I don't want to be a Christian anymore. I want to be able to have a discussion about my beliefs even if another person doesn't agree with me. I want to be able to look deeply at my beliefs. Look at what I believe means in reality. You, and most fundamental Christians I have met, do not want to do those things.

[Sobeknofret]

I will not be having anymore biblical discussions. I have tried stating where I have stand on things about a million times only for it to be rephrased and asked again. We've covered it all.

I will have conversation but, I will not debate with people who don't believe the bible at all.

Kristina. I am a Christian. I was raised Catholic and "crossed the Tiber" as an adult after years of being pagan/agnostic. I read the Bible daily. I interpret the Bible differently than you do, but I am in no way, shape, or form a non-Christian.

[formergothardite]

What have I missed? I thought I had covered all the questions.

Well, I had asked you to graciously acknowledge that when you vote to deny gay rights you are voting to force your religious beliefs on other individuals and churches. If you don't feel like this is the truth, you can explain why, but I imagine you will have a hard time doing so because you are telling Christian gay couples that they can't practice their religious beliefs and telling churches that believe in gay marriage that they must by law obey your religion.

Then we could discuss why you take the passages about homosexuality literally but refuse to do so about gluttony.

[fun2beme]

THIS is where I get the whole "you're the first to judge" stuff.

All you know is from maybe, what, 3-5 status' that you saw.

Where do you get that he is underemployed? Where do you get overfed? And undereducated....

First off, you know NOTHING about my husband's job. Just because your husband is a lawyer doesn't mean that you can hate on people who aren't. Second, my husband eats 1 sandwich and then 1 meal a day...does that sound like he's overfed to you? Some people are built certain ways no matter how they eat.

Personally speaking, my husband is handsome, hardworking (works 60+ hrs a week) and is a wonderful man. He loves his children dearly and spoils us. Those are the parts you don't know about him.

I personally don't like to negatively comment on a person's looks, and what one finds attractive may not appeal at all to someone else. Beauty being in the eye of the beholder and all. ;)

[3_and_counting]

Well, I had asked you to graciously acknowledge that when you vote to deny gay rights you are voting to force your religious beliefs on other individuals and churches. If you don't feel like this is the truth, you can explain why, but I imagine you will have a hard time doing so because you are telling Christian gay couples that they can't practice their religious beliefs and telling churches that believe in gay marriage that they must by law obey your religion.

Then we could discuss why you take the passages about homosexuality literally but refuse to do so about gluttony.

Going by what you are saying, isn't everyone who votes guilty of this? I mean, if when I vote I am forcing my religious views on them, aren't they by default forcing their non-religious views on me when they vote for gay marriage?

P.s. I've never voted, so this doesn't apply to me. I don't complain about the state of the government or decisions the government makes...because I don't vote.

[FoxyMoxie]

Why conflate being for marriage equality with being non-religious? Many LGBT people and those who support them are religious. I am a Christian and my support of marriage equality is because of my faith, not in spite of it. I live in the UK and when equal marriage was being debated in the House of Commons, several MPs said the same thing. Our Prime Minister is a Conservative and says he is a Christian, and is the one who brought in equal marriage.

I will say that I'm not happy about conflating gluttony (which is being greedy and wasteful with food) and being fat/plus-size (I self-ID as fat but know not everyone is comfortable with the term). Plenty of thin people are gluttons. I am fat and not a glutton. It has nothing to do with body size or shape, but is an attitude.