Breaking MAXWELL news/Liz cancelled the wedding to Joe

[browngrl]

Poor kids. You can call it courtship or dating or whatever you want but I don't doubt that E and J are hurting. It may not be from losing love - the hurt may stem more from losing the fundie dream of a pristine life culminating in a shining marriage to their prince/princess. The saddest part to me is that neither will likely have any experience in dealing with the loss of a relationship. Certainly in J's case - he hasn't even had any friends outside of his family. He has never had to build a relationship with ANYONE from scratch. I think that dating in some ways is like an immunization. The small disappoint of a bad date or small number of dates helps you learn how to cope with really big relationship losses. It also gives you practice in working through things. These children got thrown in the deep end with no life preserver. No wonder it did not work out.

As for E's blog post - I think all the God stuff is just the fundie cliche that people throw out instead of telling a much more painful truth - rather like "its not you its me" or the excuse "I'm doing "x" for family reasons. I hope that both are allowed to mourn the end of this the way they want.

[Deleted03]

Aaaaaand that's why you don't say yes to a guy just because he answered right to all of daddy's questions. You need chemistry, you need to be interested in that guy.

I'm so sorry for both of them for having such incompetent parents. I hope (uselessly) that both sets of parents realize they are making those kids suffer, no one else.

[Justme]

I wonder if that "big weekend" the Munck's posted about a couple of weeks ago was a visit to the Maxwell homestead. They said it was something "important". They never came back and posted about the w/end. I wonder if Ma & Pa visited. I don't think Liz went 'cause Steve did say a couple of times that Liz had never seen her new "home" in person....

Liz's post was rambling. But, I'll also give her a "pass" given the whole situation.

[Sumeri]

Honey, if you heard her 'voice' give me a translation. She posted nothing but some garbled clap trap. ETA she hurts, she loved him, she loved the courtship but she gave it all back to god. Makes zero sense.

Here, let me help. I speak born again (and redneck, too, if you ever need a translator).

A treasure I had held so dearly in a grasp so tightly, I gave back to the Lord yesterday. Someone so precious to me, it was the hardest thing I've ever done. Joe was okay, cute even, but his family was starting to skeeve me out. As I write this my tears are unceasingly flowing, pain so deep that makes me feel numb. Like being sick and you just can't get comfortable. Holy crap, did you see that blog post about me? Since I'm being blamed anyway, I'd better jump in and tell people this is making me so sad that I'm sick!

Yet through all the pain my spirit is at peace. I've never felt the presence of God like I have these past couple of days. As yesterday was going to be a week from our wedding date, I felt my heart not at peace. I couldn't understand why. In some ways I still don't understand. But 2 hours before my bridal shower I gave that precious gift back to the Lord. and dodged that bullet. Whew! I only deserve hell, yet the King of Kings humbled himself and came to the earth he created, being fully God and fully man. Lived a humble and serving life. Beaten, bruised, mocked, spit on, and more than we could ever comprehend. While having the power to destroy them all, yet through His love He bore it. Forsaken by His father He died on a cross to pay for all my filthiness and sins. Beyond surrendering my life to Him at age 7. I've never been able to give something that I loved so much back to my Lord and Savior, until yesterday. Let me just tell you, I didn't want to at all! I was like a baby inside kicking and screaming. Flesh and Spirit were at war inside of me. When those words tumbled from my lips, it wasn't me speaking but the Spirit. Even with peace there is much mourning. Praise Jesus! Nothing I do could possibly be as bad as being nailed to a cross to save all you sinners! Hooray!

Just as I didn't know when my first breath would be in life and I sure won't know when my last will be. God gave me my first and He will give me my last. All these broken pieces He can and will pick up. Not sure what He will do with them, but that's okay. Stain glass is a beautiful picture of broken pieces. And how beautiful it is when the sun shines through it! May these pieces be for Him and I pray that His Son will shine through them! I might have given away all the tiny pieces of my heart but I am also a cute little thing. Just wait a few months, haters, I'll be back on the market, shiny and new and better than ever! Maybe my next boyfriend will let me celebrate my birthday!

My courtship and engagement is something I don't regret and never will! I am oh so thankful for it! It was one of the greatest blessings I have ever had. It was truly better than what my thoughts of a courtship would be. My walk with the Lord took leaps and bounds. I was sharpened and encouraged in my relationship with the Lord. Our prayer was Matthew 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

I am so thankful for the Lords leading in our relationship. His blessing of us not having any regrets. My prayer is that through our relationship and now after that our lives would always be just that. A life that reflects Christ and points men heavenward. We are not our own we were both bought with a price. His and my prayer are to be used of Him no matter what the cost. Sorry, Joe. I just threw this in here because I feel really bad that you can't escape as easily as I can.

Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Philippians 2:4-8 Ending with some scripture:

Thank you for all your prayers!

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord. and some more.Isaiah 55:8

To God be the glory,

Elizabeth

[BlondeAsTheyCome]

As many others have stated, Elizabeth really did dodge a bullet. The Maxwells are their own brand of crazy. I give her a ton of credit for being willing to call it off. I'm sure that is hard for a non-fundie bride to do, let alone when you think that it is your highest purpose in life.

I do have to wonder though who Joseph might court next. He has the house pretty much ready to go. Maybe it will sit empty for a while, like Nathan's? Does anyone know how long between the one brother's first broken courtship and the second, which resulted in marriage. I can't for the life of me remember which brother though!

I'm sure that the Duggars are way too worldly for the Maxwells, but they have been seen together on multiple occassions. Also, the Maxwells were there for that "graduation" party a few months ago. See Duggar Picasa. Maybe a Duggar courtship? (Just thoughts)

[Palimpsest]

Good job, Sumeri, but you missed what I think is the iron-clad statement mixed up in all the fluffy verbiage and scripture quotes. No-one, but no-one can challenge her on this. Elizabeth says:

I've never been able to give something that I loved so much back to my Lord and Savior, until yesterday. Let me just tell you, I didn't want to at all! I was like a baby inside kicking and screaming. Flesh and Spirit were at war inside of me. When those words tumbled from my lips, it wasn't me speaking but the Spirit. Even with peace there is much mourning.

It wasn't me speaking, it was God. So there! No recriminations allowed!

Although I feel sorry for them both. I think they are both victims of parental manipulation, the stupid courtship rules and the wedding was way too rushed. While they may have liked each other she, at least, decided she wasn't ready to marry. Good for Elizabeth.

Joseph is probably dealing with hurt feelings, a hugely damaged ego, and perhaps doubts about Steve's omnipotence. I sincerely hope he is questioning that last one.

[Justme]

As many others have stated, Elizabeth really did dodge a bullet. The Maxwells are their own brand of crazy. I give her a ton of credit for being willing to call it off. I'm sure that is hard for a non-fundie bride to do, let alone when you think that it is your highest purpose in life.

I do have to wonder though who Joseph might court next. He has the house pretty much ready to go. Maybe it will sit empty for a while, like Nathan's? Does anyone know how long between the one brother's first broken courtship and the second, which resulted in marriage. I can't for the life of me remember which brother though!

I'm sure that the Duggars are way too worldly for the Maxwells, but they have been seen together on multiple occassions. Also, the Maxwells were there for that "graduation" party a few months ago. See Duggar Picasa. Maybe a Duggar courtship? (Just thoughts)

Nate did not have a broken courtship. He met Mel at church. (Before they made up their own church.) Chris had a broken courtship. He didn't buy the house for her. He bought Steve's house so they could build the big one.

[pixydust]

She sounds confused, like she thinks that she is supposed to marry him because God wants her to, but that she just can't live a Maxwell life. Also, confused that it hurts (courtship is supposed to keep you from hurt, that is the point, right?). In her fundie life, she is disappointing and disobeying her dad and God. That is a lot of guilt.

Or she threw up some fundie word salad because she doesn't believe any of it anymore and she is working on getting out!

I think that option number one is more likely and she will probably never court again (because she SINNED and gave Jesus back his gift, so she doesn't get another one) and will stay at home and be Jonathon's caretaker for life (but that will still be a happier life than being a Maxwell!).

Or option 3, she got knocked up and that is why there was a quicky everything and then miscarried and realized that she doesn't love Joe and doesn't really want to marry him.

[Arete]

I believe I said I would gladly eat shit if it turned out the Munck parents were not as off the deep end as the Maxwells. Well, it looks like that day is today. :D They may be fundy social climbers, but it appears in the end their daughter's happiness trumped all, and she was able to call off this wedding. Good for the Muncks.

Joseph Maxwell is the first reversal Maxwell, and that means he never even had normal taken away from him like his two older brothers. Steve has completely destroyed the free agency of those reversal kids, and it's not fair that they should be allowed to soul destroy other human beings as their father has done to them. I do pity them, I really do, but I am happier for the girl who made the narrow escape.

[emmiedahl]

I completely agree with Elizabeth's assessment that this was the will of God. That is fundie speak for "this is just not meant to be." Elizabeth's parents may be fundie, but they are fun. They seem so light-hearted compared to the Maxwells. She would languish under the Maxwell regime. Imagine how hard it would be to have all these great childhood memories and then not be able to give them to your own children. Holidays, presents, pets, sports, swimming, laughing, having fun. It would be hard to give that up because your mentally ill father-in-law cannot balance religion and life.

I have had two broken engagements. They were both heartbreaking in different ways. In the first, we had a child. I second-guessed myself at the time and really questioned whether my happiness and dignity were worth the pain I was causing. But now I know that I dodged a bullet both times.

[moreorlessnu]

How interesting that it was important to Elizabeth to mention that she made her decision "2 hours before my bridal shower". She could have made her decision after tossing and turning all night, or after a long walk, but the bridal shower was the threshold she couldn't cross (ha! Yes, I see the irony), and it was important enough for her to mention that.

So, what was it about the bridal shower that did her in? Juxtapose that with the registry with it's overpriced items and nonsensical duplicates. Many of the gifts she would have received might have come from that registry, and she just couldn't bring herself to accept those gifts (even though the gifts had already been purchased and gift wrapped, just waiting for her).

I don't think Elizabeth had much of a hand w/ the registry. A girl like Elizabeth is handy enough around the kitchen that she would know just what and how many of each item you need to have a well stocked kitchen. What's odd is that, even if Joseph created the registry on his own, none of the women in his family (who are also well experienced in their own kitchen) were able to modify his registry so that it made sense. Why?

Artemis hit the nail on the head that Elizabeth is sad to lose the fundie definition of a successful woman, but is not sad to lose Joseph. If she cared about him and/or was remotely interested in him, she could have postponed the wedding, but she's done with him. There's something about Joseph or the Maxwell family that Elizabeth is done with.

And, it was something about the bridal shower that brought her to that point.

[bouncyball]

As fundie as the Muncks are, they do seem like a very loving family who take great joy in celebrating events like birthdays as a family. When I heard of the engagement and read Elizabeth's birthday post on their blog, I felt like my heart was breaking. To go from the comfort of your family and home to the cruel, sterile Puritan Maxwells in another state... I would be crying like a baby for my mother, even at 20. In the blog post where one of the little girls is sick, her bedcovers are brightly colored and the room is full of cute stuffed toys. Even the smallest of things show the huge disparity between them and the Maxwells.

[IReallyAmHopewell]

Honestly, I feel for both of them. Joe could almost FEEL freedom, love for HIMSELF as HIMSELF and not as "a blessing" could move out, have sex, and maybe have some FUN. Elizabeth--I agree with all that's been written--she should have been sent to visit with them like poor Other Anna was. She should have been allowed to visit and HELP with HER house. I'm sad for both of them and happy for both of them. Poor Joe--I wonder what will happen to him?? Elizabeth, I feel, will be fine and will be supported by her family.

Either Joe can sell the house for a tidy profit or rent it and save the profit for later. I wish he'd just say "screw you Dad" and move to his own house, but I'm not holding my breath.

I add to the "dodged a bullet" chorus for Elizabeth! Who knows! Maybe Melanie or Other Anna told her to RUN!

[MissBeaufort]

I'm going to give her a pass on that one. She's heartbroken. It's hard to make sense when you've been sobbing for days. That was me 2 years ago.

Yes, I agree. I've had friends her age write blog posts after a nasty break up and (granted, their writing wasn't full of the bizarre fundy babble, but otherwise) they made about as much sense. I think it's hard to be coherent when you're that upset.

What DOES surprise me is that presumably her parents proofread it or at least knew about it and then let her post it. I guess they wanted a chance for Elizabeth to tell her side of the story? It just seems like her post is so emotional and garbled that she might have been better off if someone had said "uh... Maybe sleep on it a few days, calm down a little, and then rewrite it".

[MamaJunebug]

Elizabeth's/the Muncks' blog references to Jesus suffering and death are also a Christian way of saying, "Go ahead, Steve, write that 'it was all Elizabeth, and not at all Joe,' but God's forgiven us and you need to, too." Makes me happy that Muncks (Elizabeth) are standing up to the delusional Jim Jones clone.

Jim Jones - excuse me, Steve was pretty damn brazen in his plan to drag newlyweds along on the Bat Out Of Maxhell 2012 Tour, wasn't he? Hypocritical rodent: so much for giving the newlyweds privacy! Something to consider.

The FJers who infiltrated Maxwell presentations reported how Teri did not know what to do when she misrquoted a Scripture passage on-stage with steve, and how the whole sales pitch came to a screeching halt when Steve's prop-Bible was out of place. My god: Can you imagine the atmosphere at Maxhell House over the past 3 days?

[jockosmom]

I'm sad for both of them but also relieved. This whole thing just was too fast and with too many parents involved. I think Elizabeth has been raised in a slightly more worldly way than Joe; she seems to have seen and experienced more things in the world than Maxwells are allowed to see and experience. I thought about these kids the other day, thinking that they really were only about at the emotional level of a second or third date in terms of how well they know each other. There's no way they were ready for the commitment of marriage. Maybe if the families would just back off these fundie kids could find their life partner.

[nokidsmom]

Good job, Sumeri, but you missed what I think is the iron-clad statement mixed up in all the fluffy verbiage and scripture quotes. No-one, but no-one can challenge her on this. Elizabeth says:

It wasn't me speaking, it was God. So there! No recriminations allowed!

I noticed that she got behind the "it wasn't me; it was God" defense, which should be somewhat expected. That's the way to cover oneself in the fundie work when one exhibits their own initiative and no one can dispute because it was all controlled by God.

I am hoping she is just tossing this out in an attempt to quell the recriminations and that she really isn't beating herself that much over this. She's a young, inexperienced woman who made a serious life decision in the face of what had to have been enormous pressure and that is a major accomplishment. And I certainly hope she doesn't come out of it thinking that she has to be punished for "giving back the gift" and that was also what someone else called "fundie word salad".

I am betting that she will be OK thanks to her family. Joe, I am not so sure.

[Marian the Librarian]

What would hinder him in finding another woman willing to enter a courtship? His relationship with his father. Steve is too much of a control freak, and his adult kids are still enmeshed in the Cult of Steve. The married older sons have not properly done the leave-and-cleave thing, and Steve still exerts far too much control over their lives. The unmarried adult children are pretty much hostages--he's isolated them from other people, hammered his own dour, joyless theology into them, and gradually stripped away so many of the small pleasures and delights that most people--including most fundies--take for granted.

And secular people are allegedly the ones with sex on the brain all the time? Really?! For crying out loud Steve, get your mind out of the gutter--because anyone who imagines, with dread and horror, all the small ways their adult child might be "unchaste" toward their fiancee, and seeks to control and prevent any possibility of that happening, is a sex-obsessed nutcase.

ARE YOU LISTENING, STEVE?????

[MamaJunebug]

moreorlessnu wrote,

I don't think Elizabeth had much of a hand w/ the registry. A girl like Elizabeth is handy enough around the kitchen that she would know just what and how many of each item you need to have a well stocked kitchen. What's odd is that, even if Joseph created the registry on his own, none of the women in his family (who are also well experienced in their own kitchen) were able to modify his registry so that it made sense. Why?

Three things spring to mind:

Just as nobody questions Steve Maxwell, no female Maxwell questions any male Maxwell over the age of 13. It's not a new concept, lots of fundies have it: males are unquestionable leaders as of age 13.

The registry was a quickly-thrown-together effort to add substance to the idea that this lightspeed courtship/wedding was entirely legitimate and not at all poorly thought out nor conceived (pardon me) just for the purposes of enhancing the marketability of Tour '12.

[javafriend]

I wish this situation would open Joe's eyes but I fear it will only make Steve clutch his cult/family even closer. As someone said above, it is painful to imagine what life is like in the Maxwell home right now - fasting? all-day praying? death lectures?- oh wait- that is everyday life for them.

[Esther]

Haven't read the rest of the thread yet but just wanted to say right now that I am SO DAMN HAPPY for that girl. She deserved much better than a Maxwell. I really hope her parents, perhaps, wised up and realized what they were condemning her to. Congratulations, Elizabeth.

[WonderingInWA]

I'll bet Steve is just PISSED. This is a huge demerit on his head, another failed engagement (remember, Christopher wasn't just courting, he was engaged to Sara Smith). I thought the whole point of courtship was that you don't move on to engagement unless you are absolutely sure. In my mind, a broken engagement is a much darker mark on Stevie and his clan than any broken courtship would be.

After Christopher and Sara broke up, Steve went through and deleted a bunch of blog posts and photos of them together. I wonder if he will cleanse the blog the same way with Elizabeth? Time will tell.

I wish Joseph would give Rebecca!!!!!111!!!! a try. She would be the perfect wife to him and she wouldn't even mind moving into Elizabeth's beige house.

Does anyone but me wonder how Elizabeth's decision was communicated? Did she tell Joseph or did she let the father's work it out and then Stevie told Joseph? That whole scene must have been very hard on everyone. And all the money already spent on dresses, decorations, reservation on the church, everything. Wow.

[nokidsmom]

I wish this situation would open Joe's eyes but I fear it will only make Steve clutch his cult/family even closer.

That is exactly what I predict will happen. Steve will tighten the reins even more and take Joe and the family down to the next level of Maxhell.

[Black Aliss]

What DOES surprise me is that presumably her parents proofread it or at least knew about it and then let her post it. I guess they wanted a chance for Elizabeth to tell her side of the story? It just seems like her post is so emotional and garbled that she might have been better off if someone had said "uh... Maybe sleep on it a few days, calm down a little, and then rewrite it".

For all that she's a good, loving, well-intentioned person, Mrs. Munck is not the second coming of E.B. White (or William Strunk). I'm sure Elizabeth knows better than to take spelling, grammar, or any other kind of writing advice from mom. I hope Elizabeth and her sisters resurrect their blog, which I'm sure Steve had at least an indirect hand in shutting down.

My heart goes out to Elizabeth. I'm sure she's really hurting right now. But when Joe does take a wife and she watches the light fade from her eyes in every photo of a Maxwell "celebration", she can say, "There, but for the grace of God, go I."

[Angri-la]

Good for her. I do think she will end up married within a year, though.

I was busy this weekend, so I missed this breaking news, and you all have mostly said what I would have: broken courtships are much worse heartbreak than dating, and I am very glad E's parents listened to her! She is really lucky in that respect, as it does seem that the parents are more in love with the Maxwell's than their daughter was with the Maxie Boy.

Having been through a fundie marriage, where I moved to a state I'd never been to, I remember wanting desperately to run the weekend of my wedding. There was nowhere to go, and no one to help me; at least she was able to get off the Maxwell merry go round in time. I am sure her parents are mortified, but they listened to their daughter, which is so much more than most fundie parents would do. She's a girl!