Breaking MAXWELL news/Liz cancelled the wedding to Joe

[Funky Chicken]

If these were more "mainstream" people I'd be wondering if the bride has found out she's not pregnant after all, so she doesn't have to marry the guy now. The timing would fit with "premature fellowship". But maybe I have a nasty suspicious mind.

[LucySnowe]

Wow. I am so glad Elizabeth got out in time.

I do wish we could buy her that ice cream maker, and a dozen spoons so she and her friends could do the traditional post-breakup ice cream ritual.

Liz, if you're reading this: take time to heal. As much as you need, and more. All that time they wouldn't let you have with your future husband.

Steve Maxwell is a cult leader, Doug Philips is a tool, do-wop do-wop do-wop.

[lilith]

So her courtship and engagement were a cherished gift from the lord but she handed them back anyway cause she is somehow unworthy, but she is still so thankful for the experience?

I don't get what she was saying at all, it's just a babble of fundie speak.

[Just_Jane]

I thought courtship was supposed to prevent broken hearts. if she hurts and is in pain does that mean she gave a piece of her heart away?

[hoipolloi]

Elizabeth has surely escaped a dismal fate. Although her blog entry on the matter is pretty incoherent, i did get from it that she believes God orchestrated it all.

Steve Maxwell: Perhaps God spoke to Elizabeth because when He tried telling you first that the engagement had to go, He found that you could only hear the sound of your own voice.

[YPestis]

I wonder if Joseph will now be so fearful of another courtship that he'll be hitting 30 before seriously considering another courtship. Typically, most teen romance breakups is devastating for a time, then they recover and go back into the dating game. For Joseph, one of the reversal kids who've been so completely sheltered/brainwashed by his parents, I wander how he'll recover from such a trauma. I've been reading about the family for years. The kids seem so insulated from the daily stresses of life. Their schoolwork is a joke. They avoid all dating and friendships and therefore all the entanglements that comes with it. By the time kids are 18, they're still trapped in this infantile state. The reversal kids are also taught that their parents' way is the narrow path to happiness. This courtship failure will probably shake Joseph because it seems his parents are wrong. Courtship doesn't protect their hearts. Of course, I guess Steve can say they allow people to experience some emotional bonding during the engagement and so Joseph got his heart broken from that, not the courtship. Then again, most people would say the first six month of any relationship is really a courting/dating period. Rarely do people meet a few times, have superficial, chaperoned conversations and know someone well enough to want to spend the rest of their life together. I hope Joseph will learn from this and realize that in love, one cannot rush into the situation, or ignore the human emotional factor. Relationships requires nurturing, time and a emotional bond that cannot be replicated by skyping and small talk under the eyes of parents. Maybe Joseph will slowly come out of his parents' supervision with this. Then again, Christopher also went through a failed courtship and survived to find an even more fundie wife. Maybe Joseph will look at his older brother and think that God will just bring him an even Godlier wife next time.

[kpmom]

After reading her, uh, explanation of ending her courtship, I'm thinking we may have given her too much credit for intelligence.

[Lillybee]

So her courtship and engagement were a cherished gift from the lord but she handed them back anyway cause she is somehow unworthy, but she is still so thankful for the experience?

I don't get what she was saying at all, it's just a babble of fundie speak.

It could be that the Maxwells made her feel as though she was unworthy of becoming one of them, that she couldn't live up to their expectations. Anyway, I am glad that she got out of Dodge.

[marmalade]

I thought courtship was supposed to prevent broken hearts. if she hurts and is in pain does that mean she gave a piece of her heart away?

The inclusion of "stain" glass metaphor clearly illustrates how her heart was shattered. I really do wonder, as I intimated in my first post on this thread, if this wasn't wholly her decision, but possibly Arthur delving more into the Maxwell Way of Life and realizing that it wasn't what he'd originally thought. It seems to me that the wife is the one who is really the social climber anyway.

I just have this feeling that Daddy did his homework and got his daughter out of there before she was irrevocably damaged. The Maxwell life is best for girls like NR Anna who don't know any other way. I don't see them being much more than fundie lite; the older kids have seen too much of the real world, that genie can't be put back in the bottle.

[luckystone]

After reading her, uh, explanation of ending her courtship, I'm thinking we may have given her too much credit for intelligence.

I actually thought the same thing! Either that or she's so intelligent she's explaining it away with a babble of biblical rubbish that nobody will question, rather than telling the truth.

[Lillybee]

The inclusion of "stain" glass metaphor clearly illustrates how her heart was shattered. I really do wonder, as I intimated in my first post on this thread, if this wasn't wholly her decision, but possibly Arthur delving more into the Maxwell Way of Life and realizing that it wasn't what he'd originally thought. It seems to me that the wife is the one who is really the social climber anyway.

I just have this feeling that Daddy did his homework and got his daughter out of there before she was irrevocably damaged. The Maxwell life is best for girls like NR Anna who don't know any other way. I don't see them being much more than fundie lite; the older kids have seen too much of the real world, that genie can't be put back in the bottle.

I said it earlier, that Daddy didn't like the idea of turning her headship over to Steve. If it had just been Joseph, she might have stayed engaged.

[marmalade]

I said it earlier, that Daddy didn't like the idea of turning her headship over to Steve. If it had just been Joseph, she might have stayed engaged.

Absolutely. There's definitely more to this than Lizzy getting cold feet. It does warm my cockles to feel the slow burn coming from Leavenworth. If there's one thing that's consistent about Steve-o, it's that things operate his way, or it's the highway. Steve's need for control has (temporarily, I hope) destroyed one of his own sons and a poor, innocent girl who had little say in the manner, but seemed to like Joe well enough.

[Jezebel]

I wonder if this home will be an impediment to the next woman Joseph courts, it was bought and built and beiged for Elizabeth.

They've done a nice job on it--improved and opened up the layout, torn off the scruffy back porch, put down hardwood, replaced the windows and doors--and the beigeness of it isn't all that unusual. I've been thinking about buying another house so I've been looking at real estate listings online again, and bland, boring beige seems to be an overwhelmingly popular choice in kitchen and bath tile.

I seem to recall that he got a good deal on the property because it was a fixer. So if he decides to flip it, he might just come out of it okay, especially since his family did all the labor (and labor costs are always the killer when it comes to budgeting a job like this). The workmanship looks good so far, and once finished it will be pretty much move-in ready. Some other couple will love it.

Even if he did decide to break with the family cult and try living on his own, I wouldn't blame him for not wanting to live in that house. All the anticipation and expectations that went into it? If I were in his position, I don't believe I could do it. I'd want it done and out of my life, so I'd no doubt sell it.

And I don't believe it would be an impediment to his finding another young woman to court. In fact, I'm sure having a nice, "new" house with brand-new bathrooms, a freshly-remodeled kitchen, and no mortgage would make him a real catch. Unlike Zack Bates, he's proven that he has a solid work ethic; he seems like a decent, humble, nice guy (no Smuggary-smugness or Bradrick!-esque chest-pounding); and I think he could actually be decent husband-and-father material for a woman who really wants that kind of patriarchal marriage.

I do feel bad for him because he's been set up to believe that courtship is the best possible way to find a wife, without risking disappointment or heartbreak. He's been lied to by his own parents, who have no faith in the young man they've raised. But to a certain kind of young fundie woman--especially one raised QF--he's a catch. She might insist on different paint colors (that oppressive oxblood color on the kitchen walls has got to go), but if she's been sharing a room with multiple sisters, spent countless hours waiting on her brothers, and has spent her entire life with nothing she can truly call her own? She's not going to care that the house was bought and remodeled for another woman. Some frying pans make the fire look awfully good.

What would hinder him in finding another woman willing to enter a courtship? His relationship with his father. Steve is too much of a control freak, and his adult kids are still enmeshed in the Cult of Steve. The married older sons have not properly done the leave-and-cleave thing, and Steve still exerts far too much control over their lives. The unmarried adult children are pretty much hostages--he's isolated them from other people, hammered his own dour, joyless theology into them, and gradually stripped away so many of the small pleasures and delights that most people--including most fundies--take for granted.

I was actually less concerned at the shortness of the engagement than I was at the fact the Muncks actually have fun. They enjoy doing things the Maxwells would never do, much less approve of. And Elizabeth was going to go from her happy, fun-loving family to the depressed, repressed Maxwell clan? Oh, honey, no. And here's a sad thought: Maybe Joe was so attracted to her in part because she comes from a family where enjoying life is not automatically suspect or a sin. Yet if he'd married her, that lightheartedness and fun would have been squeezed right out of her.

So if he's going to find someone, she'll need to be wiling to give up anything pleasurable that Steve disapproves of, and be able to tolerate the social isolation coupled with paranoid Maxwell clannishness. I'm sure there are fundie SAHDs out there who fit the bill, but on top of that she'll have to be pretty--because isn't it funny how God never puts it on these guys' hearts to ask permission to court devout-but-plain (much less homely) girls?

[Jezebel]

I have to wonder though just why DID they rush this engagement and wedding so fast? As far as I recall the only reason given by Steve-O was that once the decision to marry was made, there was no sense risking temptation, they should tie the knot right away rather than possibly get unchaste before the legal ceremony.

[...]

I suppose there's always the "Joseph had an AMAZING boner forever" theory in snarkland, but a bit more seriously I wonder just what else was really going on behind the scenes to make the thing so rushed. The fall schedule was maybe part of it?

Cal me cynical, but I do believe the fall speaking-tour schedule was partly behind the rush to the altar. I mean, let's face it--their schedule's been pretty thin this year, and they've spoken at the kinds of conferences they might not have bothered with before. They also don't really have any new material (1TonRamp excepted). So having a pair of newlyweds in tow, after a very short, no-touching courtship? Not only did the wedding date better fit their touring schedule, but it would have sparked more interest and increased turnout at their appearances. And perhaps Steve even developed, and planned to debut, new material on how wonderful and perfect courtship is, using J&E's long-distance, no-touching engagement and hasty wedding as the exemplar. If so, the latest turn of events shoots that all to hell.

And I never bought the idea that prolonging the engagement would increase the risk of acting on sexual temptation. Joseph and Elizabeth lived hundreds of miles apart, and only met in person three times before the engagement. Any subsequent visits would have been chaperoned and highly controlled. When would they have had time alone together do do the deed?

Or maybe it isn't making the beast with two backs that Steve was so afraid of. There's masturbation, which is verboten. And who knows? They might have...held hands! He might have spontaneously given her a sidehug!

And secular people are allegedly the ones with sex on the brain all the time? Really?! For crying out loud Steve, get your mind out of the gutter--because anyone who imagines, with dread and horror, all the small ways their adult child might be "unchaste" toward their fiancee, and seeks to control and prevent any possibility of that happening, is a sex-obsessed nutcase.

I have to wonder if the Muncks are going to pretty much drop out of the Maxwell orbit now (and possibly go back to some of their earlier ways?) or? If they don't I suspect it would be kinda awkward to show up at any more conferences, if the wedding is truly just "No. Can. Do" and not (as would have theoretically been possible) a "I don't know, I'm worried, let's extend this."

I expect they'll drop the Maxwells (which would be a good thing, IMO, as they set such an unhealthy example) and go join in the Vision Forum merrymaking. The VFers may have repellent beliefs, but they do like to have fun, and the Muncks are affluent and attractive enough to fit right in.

[Deleted07]

Post on the Munck blog from Elizabeth:

muncksquiver.blogspot.com

through all the pain my spirit is at peace. I've never felt the presence of God like I have these past couple of days. As yesterday was going to be a week from our wedding date, I felt my heart not at peace. I couldn't understand why. In some ways I still don't understand. But 2 hours before my bridal shower I gave that precious gift back to the Lord. I only deserve hell, yet the King of Kings humbled himself and came to the earth he created, being fully God and fully man. Lived a humble and serving life. Beaten, bruised, mocked, spit on, and more than we could ever comprehend. While having the power to destroy them all, yet through His love He bore it. Forsaken by His father He died on a cross to pay for all my filthiness and sins. Beyond surrendering my life to Him at age 7. I've never been able to give something that I loved so much back to my Lord and Savior, until yesterday. Let me just tell you, I didn't want to at all! I was like a baby inside kicking and screaming. Flesh and Spirit were at war inside of me. When those words tumbled from my lips, it wasn't me speaking but the Spirit. Even with peace there is much mourning.

:? so she did Love him? This is getting odder by the minute!!!

[sparkles]

Maybe the "something" she loved so much wasn't Joseph but the idea of being married. And when she realized that she'd actually have to be married to a person she hardly knew, she decided to give her precious gift back to the lord. Lots of doublespeak spin in that post, like she's trying to explain her heart and keep up appearances at the same time, but she hasn't got the words or the experience to do either successfully.

Given how much more worldly the Muncks appear to be, especially when compared to the Maxwells, I'm actually surprised Steve agreed to the match in the first place.

[Artemis]

Makes a bit more sense if what she was in love with was the fundie ideal - getting married and having a house of your own, and being secure for life and not 'dwindling into an old maid'. And that that was why she accepted.

Any girl who's been brought up to believe that her sole purpose in life is to marry is going to be ecstatic when she realises she's being sought in marriage. It means she is a success, not a failure. Of course she will say yes, with an enormous gush of relief and gratitude, and hope and joy.

But as the courtship progresses, she begins to think. The man is suddenly an uncomfortable accessory to the process. She remembers everything she's seen about women bearing children, she thinks of all of the bad things she knows about, but has hidden from herself - the dragged down women with no light in their eyes, bearing child after child. Maybe she even sneaks on the internet, and does some googling, maybe someone tips her off. Then her mother has the talk with her and she realises just exactly what intimacy entails. She's never touched herself intimately, never used a tampon, and she understands now that there will be a man whom she is expected to obey, who will have the right to do anything he wants to her and she can never say no. Anyone who wakes up one morning, and suddenly realises that in two weeks time they are going to be having sex with someone they barely know and that that is IT for EVER, could get very very cold feet indeed.

And when she finally realises that she just can't bear the thought of it, and she pulls out of the marriage, of course she's going to be damn heartbroken. Suddenly, she isn't a success any more, she's a failure, and a tainted, used, spoiled failure at that. What's not to be heartbroken about? She's just wrecked her chances of attaining every fundie girl's dream.

At least she had enough guts to go - but no, I'm not surprised she's heartbroken and sick. Mummy and daddy promised her that if she obeyed them, everything would be fine. They've screwed it up. Actually, so has God, but for her to start railing against His Will now would mean giving up everything she has built her life on. I hope she comes out of it so much stronger,, and goes on to help other women say no.

[johnhugh]

I wonder if the rant that Liz posted on their website was in fact written by her parents to save face in fundie land? I still think they became wise to Stevie's controlling ways and bolted.

Rebecca K. on August 12, 2012 at 5:34 pm said:

Oh no! I’m very sad for all of you! I’m so sorry! That’s so disappointing. Will definitely be praying for you and Elizabeth’s family. So sorry. Can’t imagine how this feels for all or you. May God walk with you all in your hurt. Love, Rebecca K.

“My heart is severely pained within me,†Psalm 55:4

You can see how happy Rebecca !!!1!!! is by the amount of explanation marks used in her comments. If the SOTDRT taught sarcasm, I might have a point....

[lilith]

I left a comment suggesting Sarah could move in to the home to keep house for Joseph until he felt the lord leading him towards another woman or until her "one and only" appeared to whisk her away.

I'm sure it won't be published, but I think it would be great ifnthe unmarried adult Maxwells set up house together.

[Guest Anonymous]

Poor Elizabeth, and how ironic that she was apparently the last to know about Joseph's interest in courting her and yet ultimately became the mouthpiece for the families in 'explaining' the break up.

I am still suspicious about what went down to bring about such a rushed engagement in the first place. Elizabeth was a free woman before all this started, with access to the internets and her own blog. And Joseph is an IT trainer, and probably the most knowledgeable person within the compound about how to have a clandestine online relationship and keep it from his father's knowledge until it was too late.

I suspect that Elizabeth really did like Joe, and knew him (probably only in the non-carnal sense) for a while before Steve found out and marched them into courtship. Getting to know the whole family was most likely the dealbreaker...

[Deleted07]

Makes a bit more sense if what she was in love with was the fundie ideal - getting married and having a house of your own, and being secure for life and not 'dwindling into an old maid'. And that that was why she accepted.

Any girl who's been brought up to believe that her sole purpose in life is to marry is going to be ecstatic when she realises she's being sought in marriage. It means she is a success, not a failure. Of course she will say yes, with an enormous gush of relief and gratitude, and hope and joy.

But as the courtship progresses, she begins to think. The man is suddenly an uncomfortable accessory to the process. She remembers everything she's seen about women bearing children, she thinks of all of the bad things she knows about, but has hidden from herself - the dragged down women with no light in their eyes, bearing child after child. Maybe she even sneaks on the internet, and does some googling, maybe someone tips her off. Then her mother has the talk with her and she realises just exactly what intimacy entails. She's never touched herself intimately, never used a tampon, and she understands now that there will be a man whom she is expected to obey, who will have the right to do anything he wants to her and she can never say no. Anyone who wakes up one morning, and suddenly realises that in two weeks time they are going to be having sex with someone they barely know and that that is IT for EVER, could get very very cold feet indeed.

And when she finally realises that she just can't bear the thought of it, and she pulls out of the marriage, of course she's going to be damn heartbroken. Suddenly, she isn't a success any more, she's a failure, and a tainted, used, spoiled failure at that. What's not to be heartbroken about? She's just wrecked her chances of attaining every fundie girl's dream.

At least she had enough guts to go - but no, I'm not surprised she's heartbroken and sick. Mummy and daddy promised her that if she obeyed them, everything would be fine. They've screwed it up. Actually, so has God, but for her to start railing against His Will now would mean giving up everything she has built her life on. I hope she comes out of it so much stronger,, and goes on to help other women say no.

Great post! I highly agree!

Her post on the blog seems really sad, like she thinks shes going to hell and deserves to be punished for her decision!

Seriously these parents need to wake up to the crap they are spoon feeding their kids! Its just setting them up for so much hurt in the long run, really. Especially when things don't go as they prophesize, and the kids don't fit the mold!

I wonder if she was told "cold feet" are normal and just to ignore the doubt, cos that's Satan luring her and that kind of bullshit. Which is why it took her til the last minute to stand up for herself. I'm totally glad she did though, I hope the Muncks can see how shitty this limited lifestyle choice is for their brood! Or at very least next time makes sure that a couple knows eachother well enough before engagement and marriage. So y'know... more than 6 meetings. :doh:

PS; I agree that maybe even if she truly liked Joseph, one look at "daddy dearest" and his controlling BS, would make even the most agreeable girl doubt what would happen after the vowels. It was clear that there would have been 3 in that marriage, Joseph, Elizabeth and Steve Maxwell.

[ricky_ticky]

Check out the newest Maxwell post! It's da bomb!!

[Deleted07]

theres already a whole 12 page thread dedicated to it:

viewtopic.php?f=8&t=12106&start=220

[Patsy]

I really was taken aback to read this.

Probably a close call for Elizabeth.

Maybe for Joseph too, I mean, we're talking about a person who makes decisions based on... feelings...

[Milly-Molly-Mandy]

I actually thought the same thing! Either that or she's so intelligent she's explaining it away with a babble of biblical rubbish that nobody will question, rather than telling the truth.

I'm going to give her a pass on that one. She's heartbroken. It's hard to make sense when you've been sobbing for days. That was me 2 years ago.