Breaking MAXWELL news/Liz cancelled the wedding to Joe

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Guess that's going to turn the fall Maxwell tour into a real bummer, you know, failed courtship and all....

Interesting thought there... I wonder if part of the reason they rushed it was so they could brag of having married another kid off, at the conference? Of course this way it turns out far more of a loss for them than anything they would have stood to gain. Now not only is the kid not married, they have another failed courtship.

[jeansonly]

Go Elizabeth!

Could she really have the hots for John? If I were 20, and met John and Joseph, I'd be pretty pissy if Daddy betrothed me off to Joseph while John sat there looking dreamy.

Um, I wonder if when her dad first sat down to speak to her about this courtship she even knew which son he was speaking about? She might have thought Joseph was the cute one. That would be a rude awakening!

[mockingbird]

I'm happy for her - like someone else said, it's almost like a friend broke up with a jerk boyfriend. I'm glad she's out and that maybe this will be a starting place for more questioning and more independent decisions. At the same time I also understand that they are both probably sad/upset because of the intense expectations placed on this relationship, and then it not working out.

Cricky! I go away for the weekend, and here is what I read when I check out FJ.. Way to go, Elizabeth! Although I was looking forward to snarking on a fundy wedding, this is so much better - Lizzie has escaped the Doom of the Maxwells! Also it puts some fundy making making years (months) on hold. They really need to perfect their courtships - or dating with a purpose. The vast majority of the world cannot imagine only meeting their intended spouses only three times and not wanting to touch or spend time alone. I still don't get it, if these "children" have been raised (trained) to avoid premartial sex, why can't they have some privacy? How weird is it to go from chore pack/ chaperones listening in on phone calls - reading emails, to complete privacy with a virtual stranger???

I know this engaged couple, kind-of Evangelical, really into "Jesus". On their wedding site they talk about "dating with a purpose". It basically seemed like because they were friends first, they didn't want to ruin their friendship if they started dating so they wanted it to be a serious relationship and weren't willing just to try dating for fun if they didn't think there was a good chance of commitment. They said they both (independently) thought they would marry each other before they were dating, so when they started dating they put that out there and wanted to date seriously to see where things went and figure out if that's where they would end up. I think some of this has a religious bent (purity etc.) but they don't have weird no-contact restrictions, didn't have chaperones and they realized they needed time to get to know each other before getting engaged. To me that seems like what courtship SHOULD be more like and I don't really see the difference in their case at least theoretically. They were dating with the intent of getting to know each other as a potential future spouse. I don't see any problem with how this couple approached it, but the fundy version is just twisted.

Mirele, I think we had a thread on here once about FJ members who had quick engagements/marriages! I think it can work out if, like you said, you're willing to work together. I haven't had this happen with a romantic partner yet, but I know I have friends who I met and we instantly connected on a deep level and I just "knew" we would be very good friends. I haven't ever had that initial gut feeling be wrong so I can't say that if I had that feeling with someone I was romantically interested in that it wouldn't be an option to get married quickly. I don't think the fundies give their kids room to even experience that, though, or honestly have the ability to have a gut instinct. Fundy quickie marriages scare me because I KNOW they often don't have much say in the matter and don't know the person very well if at all, plus don't know if they have chemistry.

eta clarity and to add my eta

[kpmom]

I have to wonder if the Muncks are going to pretty much drop out of the Maxwell orbit now (and possibly go back to some of their earlier ways?) or? If they don't I suspect it would be kinda awkward to show up at any more conferences, if the wedding is truly just "No. Can. Do" and not (as would have theoretically been possible) a "I don't know, I'm worried, let's extend this."

I'm betting the families stay far, far away from each other from here on out. It would be very awkward for the Muncks to go to a Maxwell conference at this point.

And you make a good point. If it was just a matter of Elizabeth feeling she didn't know Joseph well enough, she could have asked for a postponement. My guess is like yours; she saw too much that she couldn't agree with and didn't feel she could live with.

[singsingsing]

Could she really have the hots for John? If I were 20, and met John and Joseph, I'd be pretty pissy if Daddy betrothed me off to Joseph while John sat there looking dreamy.

True story, I had a dream a couple nights ago that I was supposed to marry Joseph Maxwell. I was sitting at a picnic table with the Maxwells, and Steve was asking me all these weird questions and he was disapproving of the answers I gave, and I started thinking, "WTF is up here." Then I became confused about which Maxwell I was going to marry. Someone reminded me it was Joseph and I thought, and these were the exact words, "Oh man, I really wanted to marry John, the defrauding one."

Then I woke up and thought, "I need to stop reading Free Jinger right before bed."

[TrishaMiki]

For the future, so we can remember the times when Elizabeth was lost.

[moreorlessnu]

Don't you just hope Elizabeth is awashed with an enormous sense of relief right now?

Did anyone else find it amusing that the very 1st commenter on the Maxwell blog said "four thoughts" came to mind, and then proceeded to list only 3?

[pixydust]

I want to know what else is going on in Elizabeth's head. Breaking an engagement the week before the wedding is big time rebellion in fundie land.....I wonder if she is rebelling from it all (Run, Liz! Run!), or if she broke the engagement because she couldn't have a Christmas tree or drink caffeine (and realized what living in Chez Maxwell would be like)?

[kpmom]

Did anyone else find it amusing that the very 1st commenter said "four thoughts" came to mind, and then proceeded to list only 3?

I noticed that too, but it's entirely possible her fourth thought was not Steve-approved, and edited out.

Either that or she's a SOTDRT graduate and doesn't know how to freakin' count.

[Letgo]

Did anyone else find it amusing that the very 1st commenter on the Maxwell blog said "four thoughts" came to mind, and then proceeded to list only 3?

I did! My first thought was that it had to be yet another epic fail of the SOTDRT. However, it is also possible that Steve edited out the 4th thought.

Maybe Elizabeth started thinking beyond the happy, giddy, excited wedding thoughts and began to consider the actual marriage. I have never understood how these sheltered girls can go from their own families to barely-known husbands within a few weeks. And move far away. Elizabeth would have been living with strangers. Meeting the Maxwells at a conference and spending a few days with them does not mean she knows them well enough to marry into the family. More than with most families, the bride REALLY marries into this family. Joseph was going to be her husband, but her headship would have been Steve.

[marmalade]

I noticed that too, but it's entirely possible her fourth thought was not Steve-approved, and edited out.

Either that or she's a SOTDRT graduate and doesn't know how to freakin' count.

Yup. Something to consider. :lol:

It sure didn't take REBECCA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111 K!!!!!!!!!!!11111 long to post her "condolences." I'm air-quoting that since the girl is likely peeing with excitement that Joseph is back on the market. Poor, deluded child.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

Don't you just hope Elizabeth is awashed with an enormous sense of relief right now?

I suspect she is. Surely it was a hard decision to make (just think of the pressure, what with the families getting behind it, the Muncks being extreme Maxwell fans, plus then Joseph building an entire house apparently just for her[1] ) - it probably took a lot of courage to stand up tell someone (her mom maybe, first?) that she wasn't sure about this and thought it was just a fleeting "wow that'd be a good idea!" but on further thought it didn't seem right. If she was feeling pressured she was right to just say no, but that surely took courage.

Now I imagine she's feeling like I did when I'd drop some horribly pressuring class and realize actually no I DON'T have to do all this grueling work for a subject I hate, I'm OUT - but a million times more, while at the same time probably still hurting some too. I think at some point she found herself dreading the wedding and realized "wtf am I am doing?"

[1] Honestly? Call me paranoid and untrustful of people, but if some potential mate was going to build me an entire house, pay for the whole thing and do all the work and insist on it being completely done before I moved in, it would creep me OUT more than anything, because that's a MASSIVE power differential going in. I suppose with the fundie patriarchal marriages you're supposed to be okay with the power differential before anything even gets started, but... it would creep me out. There's always something asked in exchange, y'know? If it were a childhood friend that'd be one thing but a guy I've barely met? No.

[Witsec7]

if some potential mate was going to build me an entire house, pay for the whole thing and do all the work and insist on it being completely done before I moved in, it would creep me OUT

I wonder if this home will be an impediment to the next woman Joseph courts, it was bought and built and beiged for Elizabeth.

[moreorlessnu]

Call me paranoid and untrustful of people, but if some potential mate was going to build me an entire house, pay for the whole thing and do all the work and insist on it being completely done before I moved in, it would creep me OUT more than anything, because that's a MASSIVE power differential going in. I suppose with the fundie patriarchal marriages you're supposed to be okay with the power differential before anything even gets started, but... it would creep me out. There's always something asked in exchange, y'know? If it were a childhood friend that'd be one thing but a guy I've barely met? No.

Agreed.

But, Elizabeth comes from a mindset where they never contemplated the independence that others enjoy. Daddy provides, and then her husband provides. If someone else doesn't provide, she goes without. So Joseph is/was doing a very good job in that role. Not only is she okay with the power differential, but it's all she knows.

Reminds me of how sweet that 1st postage stamp sized apartment is when it's yours, all yours, and you have provided it for yourself.

[javafriend]

My guess is that Elizabeth chose an attractive and flattering wedding dress that revealed her shoulders or collar bones. She excitedly sent a photo off to her intended sisters-in-law, who shared it with dad and all hell broke loose. A young gal might put up with a lot - but don't diss her dress!

[Daenerys]

Maybe seeing the loving wedding they posted about on their own blog made her realise what hers would be lacking if she went ahead...

[Witsec5]

No. Way. :shock: Maybe this will finally give Sarah courage that she has a little bit of a say.. maybe.

This!

[fundiefan]

I read this on my phone durinv a quick Intefnet chec while on vacation with damily. I audibly gasped and had to come up with a quick excuse. I don't think heartz ars broken. Disappointment yez, but not heartbreak. Their hearweren't even involved

No emotion only a big plan.

Also, yay for Elizabeth to choose not to vo through with a rushed ans hurried weddinc to someone ahs doesn't love or even know. Convrats to her cor knowig it wasn't right and not in her best interest.

To Steve, your reach ian't as fat as you think and you couldn't force a new membed into uour ikf even with a hurries marriGe. This makes me immensely happy even as you stew. Nothing corced is ever real or good.

Sorry fjers fir the awful typing. Several beers plus my phone make for bad written communicatio.

GO ELIZABETH! CONGRATS ON REMAINING FRE

[WonderingInWA]

How happy do you think Rebecca!!!!!!!!!!! is? She would fill in, in a second. EKK.

My first thought, exactly. That girl has got to be jumping for joy!

[Mela99]

Alarm bells should have gone off for Elizabeth when the "no touching" courtship was proposed and both parties were fine with it. That speaks of a total lack of chemistry.

Of recent fundie courtships - Anna Duggar went through with her marriage, but it was to the ATI prince, the top catch in her circles. Priscilla was nearing the big 30, the point of spinsterhood in their society, so she accepted her awkward young man. I think that is one of the reasons we are seeing later weddings - the women only agree to marry these strange controlling men when they realise Prince Charming isn't going to come calling.

So was the no-touchy proposed by King Maxwell? I thought the girl's father had the decision making power.

I have to admit, some of this makes me giddy to see that women have SOMEWHAT of a say. I just hope this doesn't turn into her being damaged goods.

Also: I had a brief thought to Sarah Maxwell, "Oh why don't THEY get together???".... then I remembered they're siblings.

::cough::

[Just_Jane]

Whatever will they do with the overpriced, vanilla bland coffee pot?

I am happy for her though.

I'm thinking courtship and rushed engagement are terrible. if you go out with someone 3 times and say you know I don't think we have anything; usually there isn't any hard feelings. Here was an engagement! are they saying that there are no feelings in an engagement? not even hopes and dreams? that this protects hearts more than going on some casual get to know you dates. dating doesn't mean you have to take off your pants.

[nokidsmom]

I checked this evening and saw this and have to say just....wow.

Amazing that she called it off with such short notice before the wedding; she's got to be one tough fundie gal. This is the second one we have seen over the last month (thinking Sarah Reith though she wasn't close to a wedding) who said "no thanks". While it's got to be tough for Joseph I have to say I am happy for her...I can't see how she would have been able to stand being married into that family. She would have been truly trapped.

[Witsec7]

My prediction is the Muncks will distance themselves from the Maxwells and become VF leghumpers.

[terranova]

How long until they blame the Hive?

[mirele]

My prediction is the Muncks will distance themselves from the Maxwells and become VF leghumpers.

Hmmm. How much money do they have? That's something Doug the Tool is interested in.