Breaking MAXWELL news/Liz cancelled the wedding to Joe

[Esther]

About Elizabeth's post... yeah, it's a lot of pointless Jesus-babble, but honestly I think this was kind of mandatory. What else is she gonna say, considering she's 20 years old and probably still hoping to live her life in the fundie world, even if I really think she realizes she doesn't want to be QUITE as fundie as the Maxwells? They basically threw her to the wolves and this is the only way she can salvage her reputation somewhat. It's actually a pretty smart post in that sense, even if it's frustrating to us.

I still think it took enormous balls to do this, and I applaud her. I can only hope she does some more thinking, along with her parents, and they realize the fundie lifestyle isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[gardenvarietycitizen]

OH my gosh, I am just reading through Sara's (Christopher's ex-fiance) post about their engagement and it is heartbreaking! Apparently, 6 weeks before the wedding date, Steve, Teri & Christopher met with Sara & her parents, to postpone the wedding. Then....

I really wonder what happened on the Maxwell end, why they cancelled the wedding and told Sara to leave them alone. That sounds so cold. I'm sure Sara is happy today not to be a part of that family, but how sad the way things went.

Woah. Yeah, I'd love to know why the MAXWELLS suddenly rejected her. (Seems the breakup was on their side that time.)

[ricky_ticky]

This is a blog post by Christopher's former fiance, Sara, and she talks about the engagement: simplysanctified.wordpress.com/2009/03/07/jesus-what-a-friend-and-lover/

That post isn't about Christopher Maxwell. There was an engagement before him, to another man. He lived in the area and had dark hair. After the engagement was broken off, Sara scrubbed her blog of any mention of him, but I'll see if I can scrounge something up.

I don't believe that the Maxwells were ever mentioned on Simply Sanctified.

[TMS]

That post isn't about Christopher Maxwell. There was an engagement before him, to another man. He lived in the area and had dark hair. After the engagement was broken off, Sara scrubbed her blog of any mention of him, but I'll see if I can scrounge something up.

I don't believe that the Maxwells were ever mentioned on Simply Sanctified.

Oh, OK, my bad!!! Sorry for the confusion! So poor Sara has had two broken engagements?

Do you know what year Sara & Christopher were engaged?

[YPestis]

There is a large part of me that wonders if Elizabeth, or her mom or dad stumbled across FJ, read some of the Info here about the Maxwells, and freaked out a little bit. The other part of me wonders if maybe it was the house being built that set off some warning bells. I mean, it would upset me if my fiancé was building a house for us to live in and I had no say in it. Obviously, that house is being crafted to Maxwell Family specifications. It's clear that she reads a lot, can you imagine of he asked for some built ins?!

We will never know the true reasons for the break-up. But of all the possible reasons, I actually don't think it's due to the house renovations. From a fundie standpoint, having a guy who had money to buy a house debt-free and then renovate it would be seen as a positive affirmation of provider status. If anything, I think Elizabeth would be happy to hear that a new house is waiting her after her wedding. The Maxwell mentioned Elizabeth got to help pick out tiles and such, so she did provide input (although unsure how much).

I know fundies are Americans and all that, but I make comparisons to Chinese conventional dating wisdom which has patriarchal tints to it. In China, especially in major cities, even modern girls look for guys who already own a house and a car (no mean feat in a that country!). My fairly modern, educated cousin was thought to have made a great catch when she married into a family that only owned their own car but also bought their son his own apartment. If a couple has to buying their own house after their engagement, it's seen by many as proof of the penury state of the husband's finances.

When I told my Chinese family and friends that I didn't like the house my SO and I live in because he bought the house prior to our relationship, everyone just looked at me like I grew a second head. They thought I should be happy that I married a guy who was able to provide a house for me. I replied that I wanted to pick a house more to my liking. I think I came off as spoiled and ungrateful in their eyes.

Once, when I dated a modern, very non-fundie Chinese man, he quickly showed me his new, 3000 sq ft house (which was nice). It was most definitely not a bachelor pad, but a ready made family home. I thought it was too expensive and large for a bachelor to live in. When I asked my mom about the oddness of that, she said this guy was trying very hard, by Chinese methods, to attract a wife. They typically do that by buying a nice family home and a nice car to denote their "husband" ready status.

I know fundies are Americans and have American habits, but I think in the past, even in America, owning a home before having a wife was not a bad sign as most people considered it a sign of maturity and financial stability. I think most fundies, including the Muncks, were probably impressed with Joseph for having proven his provider-ability by doing this. I think Joseph and his brothers are looked on as quite eligible in the financial sense by other fundies. Many fundie guys are unable to afford decent houses and debt free at such a young age. Moreover, the Maxwells are able to renovate and make the house look like new. Joseph essentially owns, debt-free a new house by his early-twenties. Not bad by most fundie standards. I can totally see Elizabeth as seeing that house as positive proof that Joseph is great husband material and all the work the family put into it as a good thing.

I've already posted my reasons for their breakup and I don't think it's the Maxwell finances. As stated earlier, it's the quickness of the Maxwell courtship/engagement and being unable to digest, in such short of a time, the cult-like atmosphere of the Maxwells. I think knowing that marriage provides no escape hatch, Elizabeth was then bombarded with all the 'no-Tv, no-team sports, no-church etc' rules that she realized she was quickly marched down this sad existence. I think that horrified her more than anything else and made her call the wedding off. I also think Joseph may have relayed to her some of the family rules/ideas during their conversations which also tipped her off that something was off about the family.

[Mela99]

So do we know if Elizabeth made the call? I wonder if she would be permitted to break the news, or if Steve delivered it in his own way with whatever he wanted to "add".

[lilwriter85]

There is a large part of me that wonders if Elizabeth, or her mom or dad stumbled across FJ, read some of the Info here about the Maxwells, and freaked out a little bit. The other part of me wonders if maybe it was the house being built that set off some warning bells. I mean, it would upset me if my fiancé was building a house for us to live in and I had no say in it. Obviously, that house is being crafted to Maxwell Family specifications. It's clear that she reads a lot, can you imagine of he asked for some built ins?!

I do feel a little sad for Joe, because he can't help his family and util he gets married, there is no way to escape. Maye he wanted to marry a girl who was fundie-lite so that he could break away. You know? One thing is clear, Steve-O is fucking up his kids' lives big time!

Ps- who was the first girl chris maxwell was courting? Was she full on fundie or fundie-lite?

Edited for grammar

I also wonder if the Muncks stumbled onto FJ. A simple Google search on any of the Maxwells, MOTH, chore packs, Moody books would have led them here. There is also the chance that they might been tipped off by someone. I have looked at some of the earlier Munck blog postings and they were less conservative years ago and they seemed to become more hardcore over time. But currently they aren't as hardcore as the Maxwells are. If the Muncks have been reading here, maybe they were shocked to find out how hardcore the Maxwells are. The Maxwells are against a lot of media and the Muncks were pretty much ok with their kids watching fundie Christian type DVDs and there are a few other things Steve would have disliked.

Several FJ members have suspected the Muncks of being fundie social ladder climbers. I also got the vibe from blog. I think maybe for awhile, they were happy about the idea of the daughter marrying into a well known fundie family. But maybe they scratched the surface more when they saw that the Maxwells were pretty much calling all the shots when it came to flipping that house. They might have felt left out.

[Seven Severn]

My hope for Joe (and I know that it's a ridiculous hope) is that while slowly finishing up the house he'll take the time to reflect on everything that's happened. At the conclusion of the renovation he'll realize that he's been sold a bill of goods regarding courtship and a few other things. He'll then sell the house for a small profit, take the money and move to Lawrence where he'll rent a small apt. and enroll at KU. Again, it's a ridiculous hope.

Elizabeth is one courageous young woman; she has some serious ovaries in her. Honestly, I don't think her chances in fundy-land will be hurt by this. The Maxwells are fringe enough that they're not on most people's (VFer's and the like) radar in a serious way, I don't think. They don't participate in any activities unless they're invited to give a presentation.

I would like to know how it all ultimately went down. Did Arthur speak directly to Joe or did he (Arthur) break the news to Steve and Joe got the news filtered through Steve? If the latter then who knows what Steve said? He could have really demonized Liz.

edited because I like apostrophes just a little too much.

[ricky_ticky]

two broken engagements?

Do you know what year Sara & Christopher were engaged?

[WonderingInWA]

Who is our Wayback Machine expert here? I'm guessing those photos of the Maxwell blog can still be found. I just remember the wedding was supposed to be in the "Fall" and I assumed October. And then September came and went and then there was an answer to a blog question asking if they were busy gearing up for the wedding. And Stevie had to answer it, and it may have been in a separate blog post, that the wedding had been called off. I just can't remember. And it seems like that was maybe 2009 that they were to be married. And that maybe they were engaged in February 2009 or so? This could all be wrong -- it's hard to remember -- but I do think there was a good amount of time between that breakup and the entrance of NR-Anna on the scene.

[Black Aliss]

I wish Joseph would give Rebecca!!!!!111!!!! a try. She would be the perfect wife to him and she wouldn't even mind moving into Elizabeth's beige house.

Rebecca!!!!!111!!!! is much too zaftig for Steve. Remember his control issues extend to food and other "appetites".

[WonderingInWA]

So do we know if Elizabeth made the call? I wonder if she would be permitted to break the news, or if Steve delivered it in his own way with whatever he wanted to "add".

Would Elizabeth and Joseph be permitted to have private phone conversations? I don't think they could when they were courting, but maybe since they were engaged, they could.

I'd love to know how it all went down, too. How humiliating, really, for all involved and for different reasons.

[Rapi]

http://www.titus2.com/blog/index.php/20 ... ent-153590

Ned & Maud on August 6, 2012 at 2:20 am said:

Buy used and save the difference!

Blessings

Ned & Maud

T-this is one of you guys, r-right?

I don't know if this is a creepy or an awesome coincidence...or is it?!

(sorry if this was in earlier pages, I'm too lazy to read 15 pages meh)

[lilwriter85]

http://www.titus2.com/blog/index.php/2012/08/05/the-lord-provided/comment-page-1/#comment-153590

T-this is one of you guys, r-right?

I don't know if this is a creepy or an awesome coincidence...or is it?!

(sorry if this was in earlier pages, I'm too lazy to read 15 pages meh)

I think that was probably an FJ membr having fun. The Maxwells wouldn't know that Ned and Maude are references to The Simpsons.

[ricky_ticky]

Who is our Wayback Machine expert here? I'm guessing those photos of the Maxwell blog can still be found. I just remember the wedding was supposed to be in the "Fall" and I assumed October. And then September came and went and then there was an answer to a blog question asking if they were busy gearing up for the wedding. And Stevie had to answer it, and it may have been in a separate blog post, that the wedding had been called off. I just can't remember. And it seems like that was maybe 2009 that they were to be married. And that maybe they were engaged in February 2009 or so? This could all be wrong -- it's hard to remember -- but I do think there was a good amount of time between that breakup and the entrance of NR-Anna on the scene.

Yes, you could be right. I remember there being one engagement photo of Christopher and Sara (Smith) in parenthesis to distinguish her from Sarah (Maxwell.) I do recall it being around the winter holidays. It was stated that Sara lived in PA, and that Christopher had made the journey several times to visit with the Smiths. I remember that Sara contrasted greatly with the Maxwell women especially at that time since they were still wearing loose-fitting frumpers and unstyled hair. The skirt Sara wore exposed her calves and feet and her hair was a modern cut and she wore makeup and heels.

As I recall, it was Christopher himself who posted on the blog to say that the engagement was off in response to questions in the comments. I remember he stated that the engagement process had lacked "the enabling grace of God," and so both parties agreed that the wedding should not go forward. Later, Steve posted that they would not be offering a session on courtship in their workshops since they were obviously not doing something right.

I"m getting a feeling from the comments to the announcement about Joseph and Elizabeth that broken courtship engagements are not unusual or rare.

[mystikchick17]

Well shit, son! THAT came out of nowhere. My first thought was "praise the Lord, she's free!" and as sad as I expect she is and Joseph possibly is too, major, major kudos to whoever decided at the last minute to pull out of this crazyfest. She has no idea how lucky she is. Go, Elizabeth, and eat cake, and ice cream, and go swimming, and maybe get a tan, and read books, and decorate the shit out of that holiday tree of yours. Go to foreign countries. Explore, learn, grow, and learn to realize that this is the best possible outcome for you.

Reading Sara's blog post, even if it is about engagement #2 (and it would have to be, as she and Christopher broke up sometime in the summer of 2007), makes my head hurt. You turned marriage and your fiancé into an idol? For fuck's sake, is nothing off-limits for potential idolatry? And yeah, she's way, way too modern for the Maxwell cult. Her knees are defrauding me in that profile pic and I daresay her sweater top is a scotch too form-fitting. NR-Anna is a way, way better fit for the cult.

And while trying to ascertain when Sara and Chris split, I discovered Christopher's articles on engagement photography on ezine. He forgets to mention Papa Maxwell's dictum of NO TOUCHING!

ezinearticles.com/?Engagement-Photography-Tips,-Article-2&id=795438

[ceg045]

From the Wayback Machine, the original post about the Christopher/Sara Smith engagement:

web.archive.org/web/20070505195020/http://www.titus2.com/blog/

It's about 75-80% of the way down the page, from March 4, 2007. I'll keep looking to see what else I can find.

ETA the original post about the courtship, from December 12, 2006, about halfway down the page:

web.archive.org/web/20070210011807/http://www.titus2.com/blog/

[MamaJunebug]

our wayback wizard once provided a photo of Sara Smith & chris. Maxwell during the betrothal period, Sara decked out in frumper & all. Her joie de vivre is irrepressible & even Chris looks like he's really jolly. Should we have a sticky topic or a whole sub-board of scrubbed stuff so that it's always available for ... researchers?

[sparkles]

Huh, strange that I didn't remember about the first engagement since I read through all of their Wayback blog posts. They both look like a couple of 40 year olds in that photo.

[MamaJunebug]

Yeay, ceg45! That's the one.

web.archive.org/web/20070505195020im_/http://www.titus2.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/03/christopher-and-sara.jpg

I don't think they look particularly old, just trying to suppress their joy. I can't see Sara folding into the dour, dreary Maxhell way of life, so while both of them were sad, it's all for the best. Also, note that it was in mid-'07 that they were engaged. Took Chris a little while to find somebody with suitably low expectations in life.

[YPestis]

When Christopher Maxwell broke up with Sara, there were comments to the effect of 'thanks for showing up courtships aren't always successful, but good thing they kept their hearts and didn't date and become whores etc". There was no mention of 'broken hearts' when the two broke up. I never got the impression Christopher was terribly upset by the break up. Two years later, he marries a much more fundie wife so I guess it all worked out well.

I don't remember if the two were actually engaged.....does anyone know for sure they were engaged and not just courting???

[ceg045]

When Christopher Maxwell broke up with Sara, there were comments to the effect of 'thanks for showing up courtships aren't always successful, but good thing they kept their hearts and didn't date and become whores etc". There was no mention of 'broken hearts' when the two broke up. I never got the impression Christopher was terribly upset by the break up. Two years later, he marries a much more fundie wife so I guess it all worked out well.

I don't remember if the two were actually engaged.....does anyone know for sure they were engaged and not just courting???

They were engaged, per the March 2007 post. Someone above posted that they broke up sometime over that summer, though I can't find the post announcing it.

[TrishaMiki]

I'm sorry for the non topic question, but where did Cristopher met his actual wife?

[VodouDoll]

Yikes. I didn't see this coming at all, but I'm very impressed with Elizabeth's courage. Calling it off was a brave thing to do. She dodged a major bullet, and I wish her every happiness. Maybe this will be a wake up call for Joe as well. His father was wrong about courtship protecting against heartbreak. Maybe he's wrong about other things too. I doubt anything will change - the reversal kids have been indoctrinated into Steve's cult since birth, after all - but it's nice to daydream about.

I wonder how Sarah is taking the news. Her enthusiasm for the wedding seemed kind of forced. I imagine her feelings are complicated.

Chris met NRAnna at one of their conferences, I think? QueenMother said that Sarah suggested Anna to him, but then was very sad/jealous when their engagement came about because she wants so badly to be married herself. Poor Sarah.

[anniebgood]

I left this comment on the Munck blog and it was posted:

I've been following the story of your courtship and your engagement Elizabeth and I think you did the right thing. I think the Lord opened your eyes and let you see the truth.

You're very young, there is a lot of time in life to enjoy things and then find someone to enjoy those things with you. To live a life without enjoyment and essentially cloistered was not for you in the Lord's eyes.

I was past 30 when i got married, had a career and a good life. When I was least looking for it, a man came into my life and we've been married nearly 30 years.

Your tears will dry, the pieces will be picked up and one day when you least expect it someone will say hello to you, and your heart will soar. Trust in God.

It will happen.