Zack Bates and Sarah Reith Courtship Kaput

[nokidsmom]

Checked out the video and the "proposal of courtship" was indeed cringeworthy. I guess she decided to give him a chance though, as this courtship was announced in June 2011 and now the Bates are finally announcing the end of it, obviously some time after the fact but still this courtship was going for some time before Sarah pulled the plug.

I checked out the Reith family website and they are obviously self-supporting between their farm and their traveling bluegrass band. Sarah has a lot going for herself with her musical talent. I just can't help but think that giving up her music career and financially stable life to go with this guy who has no real job/career path and whose family relies on the charity of others and their 18yo son :x was really the deal breaker here. I know it's speculation, but that's my take on it.

Also, reading the post that it was Sarah's decision, Kelly is quite taken aback that not only was her son rejected but that a woman dared to make the decision herself. Which suggests to me that Sarah's daddy may have not been quite as involved; that Sarah may actually have some say in what goes on her life. Her family doesn't appear as hard-core fundie to me as the Bates.

[FaeT]

You got it! I doubt it will be there for long, but here is what I posted:

Unless I'm missing it, it's already gone.

[marmalade]

The last post is by Kelly, timestamped an hour earlier than Belle's, so yeah, she came back and dumped it. Man, these people have thin skins!

[Witsec7]

The last post is by Kelly, timestamped an hour earlier than Belle's, so yeah, she came back and dumped it. Man, these people have thin skins!

It's the usual fundy BS, they cannot support their positions so they delete/ban/ignore anyone else who may point out the obvious disparity in what they have represented.

[rachelsmith1989]

ppffft a lot of the leghumper comments on the Bates blog pretty much sound like the Christian version of "Sarah is a little spoilt bitch, thank god you didn't marry her! - She's not good enough for you!". Or at least thats my interpretation of some of their words!

It's like what TinyDancer87 mentioned in the third page of the thread that, if Sarah was the one who called off the courtship, she has a lot more power than most other female fundies and receives a boatload of assinine comments from the Support Weepy Zach! Camp. Fundie women can't do anything without getting blamed for something wether its burning the chickenetti for dinner or not giving birth to a son. A way worse double standard indeed.

Personally, if a guy like Zach was crying when he "proposed courtship" to me, I would run the other way. Good for Sarah! :clap:

I do like, however, the first comment on the Bate's post on news of the breakup. "Patty" says that:

Zach seems like such a tender hearted young man, and it was apparent that he had high expectations from this courship based on what was displayed on the website. May I suggest that while courtship theorectically creates some sensible boundaries for relationships, it cannot guarantee that one won’t “give a piece of one’s heart away†anyway? Perhaps that whole concept needs a bit more scrutiny? Try as we may, we cannot protect our young adult children from pain. As our children develop into adults we have to trust that their Christian upbringing will stand up to adult challenges. May Sarah and Zach both find loving and suitable mates some day.

She has a smart head on her shoulders, which is surprising.

[OkToBeTakei]

The last post is by Kelly, timestamped an hour earlier than Belle's, so yeah, she came back and dumped it. Man, these people have thin skins!

Seriously ..she pulled it?

[moreorlessnu]

I'm repeating myself, but this really irritated me. Right before Zack asked Sarah to court (go courting?), her sister gleefully said to the camera, "She's scared to death!!"

Considering that this process is supposed to be serious and sacred, not superficial dating, I don't see why Sarah's sister would be so giddy at Sarah being frightened by this process.

And, more importantly, there's something wrong if Sarah was, indeed, scared to death. If she had the opportunity to chat with Zach in a casual environment, she'd have a better feel, up front, if she wanted to get to know him better. She wouldn't be put in the position of having to make such a serious decision (if she even could have said "No, thank you" when Zack first asked).

[pixydust]

How famous are the Reiths in the fundie world? I picture their relationship being like a normal kid asking Katy Perry to the prom. She said yes because you can't let a fanboy down. Then, when he wanted to get more serious, she had to let him down with the "I really value our friendship, etc" talk.

Good lord I hope I'm making sense, I'm really tired and going to bed now!

[FaeT]

Seriously ..she pulled it?

She pulled it. I wasn't sure if the time stamp was right or not because my time is different than the time stamps here so I wasn't sure if the stamps there were different and I just missed it. But yeah. She pulled it. I say we all start saying pretty much the same thing and see how fast the comments become "posted after approval".

[debrand]

Although the relationship did not progress into engagement and marriage, their time together was focused on strengthening their walk with the Lord, and therefore ended in friendship

That sounds mind numbingly boring. I'm glad that they are friends but it was nice that my younger self enjoyed time with guys just having fun, not worrying about 'strengthing our walk with god."

This post by Heather made me wish that fundies would think through their pet sayings.

Both myself and my husband “dated†before we met each other and it is so true. You really do give away pieces of your heart.While I do not regret anything, as I was lead to my true partner, I wish that I would have been able to offer my complete self to my husband. When “the one†comes along, your heart will be for them and the love you feel will overcome you.

God Bless you on your journey and I pray that your one true partner is just around the corner.

Hugs to all of the Bates

What exactly do fundies mean by giving away pieces of your heart? Did she somehow become less a human being because she dated? Is there less of her? If so, that would be a great diet plan. Seriously, giving away pieces of your heart seems to be the type of statement that fundies use without it having any real meaning. You don't physically loose pieces of your heart. I doubt that they mean that the individual can't feel as intensely as before. Does she believe that she doesn't love her husband as much as she could? If so, it is a bit disrespectful to be announcing that on the internet.

Dear Randy,

Sometimes hindsight is the best teacher! After we had already filmed, Anna Duggar wisely relayed that it might be best to wait to film during engagement when a relationship is a little more certain… but we had not thought through that. I guess it will be up to each of the children to decide. They asked Zach, and he asked the Reiths about filming. It seemed that it was done respectfully and innocently, and it was certainly part of Zach’s life. It was a growing experience… and a learning one. Sometimes embarrassment can lead to humility (recognizing our weaknesses apart from Christ’s strength), so in that reguard, if the end result brings greater humility and discernment… then the old hymn rings true, “It Will Be Worth It All.†I hope he and Sarah will both be able to look back with confidence, knowing that Christ was at work in each of their lives all the while. I guess we’ll wait on the greater picture to unfold, and take each step as a lesson of life with faith to face a new day, a new challenge, and a new joy! Love, Kel

Interesting that Anna Duggar thought that they should not film the engagement.

[Markie]

Interesting that Anna Duggar thought that they should not film the engagement.

Anna knows that her husband had a failed courtship. Who knows if any of the other Duggars or Kellers had failed courtships. I would imagine many courtships do not get tot he engagement/marriage stage - kinda like dating... Anna could have read the body chemistry and talked to Sarah.

I wish both Zach and Sarah well. Hopefully Zach will mature and consider "dating with a purpose" when he next tries. I hope Sarah has fun singing and travelling around meeting people and if she wants to marry, finds someone who does not ask her to broadcast it on television.

[FaeT]

That sounds mind numbingly boring. I'm glad that they are friends but it was nice that my younger self enjoyed time with guys just having fun, not worrying about 'strengthing our walk with god."

This post by Heather made me wish that fundies would think through their pet sayings.

What exactly do fundies mean by giving away pieces of your heart? Did she somehow become less a human being because she dated? Is there less of her? If so, that would be a great diet plan. Seriously, giving away pieces of your heart seems to be the type of statement that fundies use without it having any real meaning. You don't physically loose pieces of your heart. I doubt that they mean that the individual can't feel as intensely as before. Does she believe that she doesn't love her husband as much as she could? If so, it is a bit disrespectful to be announcing that on the internet.

Interesting that Anna Duggar thought that they should not film the engagement.

I wonder if she regrets having sex or getting too emotionally involved. But even so, those experiences are what make us who we are. I definitely wish I hadn't dated some of the guys that I did, but those experiences made me who I am.

Ironically, I remember a story about a man who had a paper heart (everyone in the story has paper hearts that they physically carry around). As he went through life and helped people and loved people he would give them pieces of his heart that he tore away and in exchange they would tear away pieces of their heart for him. At the end of his life he had this tattered heart that was a grand mosaic of many different papers and fabrics and colors and textures and such. And there was also a young man who has a perfect heart, who mocked the old man for his tattered heart. The moral of the story was the old man had his heart as a showcase of his life and experiences, something that represented everyone he helped and loved as well as everyone who helped and loved him. And he said how said it was that the young man had nothing from anyone else. This old man had experienced life but the young man hadn't. I don't remember the entire story or even the end (I don't know if they were dead or what was happening) But I find it interesting. If you give away pieces of your heart, surely you get pieces of someone else's heart, too.

[Deleted07]

Ironically, I remember a story about a man who had a paper heart (everyone in the story has paper hearts that they physically carry around). As he went through life and helped people and loved people he would give them pieces of his heart that he tore away and in exchange they would tear away pieces of their heart for him. At the end of his life he had this tattered heart that was a grand mosaic of many different papers and fabrics and colors and textures and such. And there was also a young man who has a perfect heart, who mocked the old man for his tattered heart. The moral of the story was the old man had his heart as a showcase of his life and experiences, something that represented everyone he helped and loved as well as everyone who helped and loved him. And he said how said it was that the young man had nothing from anyone else. This old man had experienced life but the young man hadn't. I don't remember the entire story or even the end (I don't know if they were dead or what was happening) But I find it interesting. If you give away pieces of your heart, surely you get pieces of someone else's heart, too.

OH I remember that story! It was wonderful and I loved the sentiments in it. I really agree too. I rather have a cracked mosaic of a heart from lots of wonderful (and even not so wonderful) people I've had in my life, contributing and taking etc. Because they have all taught me something and made me who I am etc giving me lots of memories and appreaciation!

I'm off to try and find that story now, Thanks for the remind!

[ceg045]

If you give away pieces of your heart, surely you get pieces of someone else's heart, too.

Yeah, but that heart might belong to a "someone else" who's Jewish, or who's had premarital sex, or who's voted for a Democrat, or who's pursuing higher education. We can't be having any of that.

[Avalondaughter]

OH I remember that story! It was wonderful and I loved the sentiments in it. I really agree too. I rather have a cracked mosaic of a heart from lots of wonderful (and even not so wonderful) people I've had in my life, contributing and taking etc. Because they have all taught me something and made me who I am etc giving me lots of memories and appreaciation!

I'm off to try and find that story now, Thanks for the remind!

I never heard that story, but it's beautiful and I also agree that you can't give away your heart without getting one in return.

I hate this fundie idea that you lose the capacity to love the more people you love.

[Deleted07]

Heres a copy of the story for those who want to see:

One day a young man was standing in the middle of the town proclaiming that he had the most beautiful heart in the whole valley. A large crowd gathered and they all admired his heart for it was perfect. There was not a mark or a flaw in it. Yes, they all agreed it truly was the most beautiful heart they had ever seen.

The young man was very proud and boasted more loudly about his beautiful heart. Suddenly, an old man appeared at the front of the crowd and said "Why, your heart is not nearly as beautiful as mine."

The crowd and the young man looked at the old man's heart. It was beating strongly, but it was full of scars. It had places where pieces had been removed and other pieces put in, but they didn't fit quite right and there were several jagged edges. In fact, in some places there were deep gouges where whole pieces were missing.

The people stared -- how can he say his heart is more beautiful, they thought?

The young man looked at the old man's heart and saw its state and laughed.

"You must be joking," he said. "Compare your heart with mine. Mine is perfect and yours is a mess of scars and tears."

"Yes," said the old man, "yours is perfect looking but I would never trade with you. You see, every scar represents a person to whom I have given my love - I tear out a piece of my heart and give it to them, and often they give me a piece of their heart which fits into the empty place in my heart, but because the pieces aren't exact, I have some rough edges, which I cherish, because they remind me of the love we shared."

"Sometimes I have given pieces of my heart away, and the other person hasn't returned a piece of his heart to me. These are the empty gouges -- giving love, is taking a chance. Although these gouges are painful, they stay open, reminding me of the love I have for these people too, and I hope someday they may return and fill the space I have waiting. So now do you see what true beauty is?"

The young man stood silently with tears running down his cheeks. He walked up to the old man, reached into his perfect young and beautiful heart and ripped a piece out. He offered it to the old man with trembling hands. The old man took his offering, placed it in his heart and then took a piece from his old scarred heart and placed it in the wound in the young man's heart. It fit, but not perfectly, as there were some jagged edges.

The young man looked at his heart, not perfect anymore but more beautiful than ever, since love from the old man's heart flowed into his.

[snickerz]

Lovely story (of the paper hearts). Someone should send it to Kelly/Zach. (Not that they would listen to anyone but Gothard, but...)

[FaeT]

Heres a copy of the story for those who want to see:

You are awesome!! That's it. As soon as I read the first line I remembered it. I think I'll post that on the Bates' site and see what happens.

[FaeT]

Lovely story (of the paper hearts). Someone should send it to Kelly/Zach. (Not that they would listen to anyone but Gothard, but...)

Done

[browngrl]

I like this story very much. I would like to pin it so that I can remember it - but I am not sure how to do so (or even if this is allowed/possible). If someone could let me know how to save this story I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[crassy]

I like this story very much. I would like to pin it so that I can remember it - but I am not sure how to do so (or even if this is allowed/possible). If someone could let me know how to save this story I would appreciate it. Thanks.

You could always just create a text file and copy and paste the text. You can then just save it to your computer and have it whenever you want. :)

[jesssnerch]

I never heard that story, but it's beautiful and I also agree that you can't give away your heart without getting one in return.

I hate this fundie idea that you lose the capacity to love the more people you love.

I find it funny that people who have a gazillion kids and claim to love each one think a person's heart is somehow damaged by having loved someone other than your life partner. I can't imagine going through life having only been with one man. My past relationships have made me love and appreciate my husband more than ever because I know what kind of partner I want to spend the rest of my life with. I don't think I would have been able to understand that if I had only had a relationship with him and no one else.

[nokidsmom]

I find it funny that people who have a gazillion kids and claim to love each one think a person's heart is somehow damaged by having loved someone other than your life partner. I can't imagine going through life having only been with one man. My past relationships have made me love and appreciate my husband more than ever because I know what kind of partner I want to spend the rest of my life with. I don't think I would have been able to understand that if I had only had a relationship with him and no one else.

If it weren't for my past relationships, including a broken engagement (yep I was the ebil woman who broke it off, too), I wouldn't have known that my husband was the right partner for me. Had I married my very first boyfriend, as much as I cared for him, it would have been a mistake for sure.

[formergothardite]

Zack has been raised his whole life to believe that he will pick a woman to court, she will agree to court him, he will propose marriage, she will agree to that, and then he will have a wife. You know he went into this positive it would end in marriage. This has to be harder for him than if he had just dated.

[debrand]

First, I would like to offer my sympathy for both Zach and Sarah. It hurts to break up, but I'm glad that they both are trying to retain a friendship. That is very mature of them both.

Something Heather wrote made me curious. "Both myself and my husband “dated†before we met each other and it is so true. You really do give away pieces of your heart" What exactly does this mean? Does it mean that Heather doesn't feel as if she can love her husband completely because she dated? The heart is often a metaphor for emotions so if you are using the word in a different way, could you explain?

Could you offer some biblical justification for the heart/emotions being finite and inflexible? Although I'm not a Christian, I actually enjoy reading the bible and it seems to me that the bible says the opposite. The more we love, the more we are able to love. Doesn't believing that your emotional capacity weakens if you date more then one person drive a wedge between couples?

That was my quote. Hopefully, he'll answer. It was up at 11:17 a.m