Zack Bates and Sarah Reith Courtship Kaput

[FaeT]

I wonder if the 'Bayley' so proud to leghump this page (https://www.facebook.com/fanpage4thebatesfamily) is the same Bayley who comes out over here declaring her 'bestest ever friendship' status and tries to make it sound like she BFFs with the Bates?

Bayley runs this page http://www.facebook.com/DuggarFanClubofPA

ETA: She makes collages of their pictures and then tells everyone they can't use them without her permission. Sorry, sweetie, but you got those pictures from somewhere else. You didn't take them yourself. Get off your high horse.

[lovemygsp]

Have you guys seen this abc special on the bates family and big sandy before? http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/c ... e-14376119

Quite disgusting at some of the things Kelly says. I snorted at her when she said they would "consider recommending more boyish activities for the girls".

Sorry if it was posted before, I don't remember ever seeing it so...

[FJismyheadship]

There's a user online right now named Gil... is it Master Bates?

[patsymae]

I was channel surfing last night and out popped the raith family performing in a bluegrass (not religious) concert. The women were dressed modestly but glitzily (think 80s country) and even someone with my ear, which is practically nonexistent, could hear how the Bates' caterwauling must grate on those professional ears. Talented, polished and performing in a worldly environment--poor Zach is nowhere near in the same league.

[BayLee_10]

I wonder if the 'Bayley' so proud to leghump this page (https://www.facebook.com/fanpage4thebatesfamily) is the same Bayley who comes out over here declaring her 'bestest ever friendship' status and tries to make it sound like she BFFs with the Bates?

Sorry, wrong Baylee. Never even been on the Bates Facebook Page and don't post on Kelly's blog, either. I get enough backlash from this site when I occasionally put my 2 cents worth in. Remembering Josh and Anna's engagement experience, I thought I understood that the father of the young man contacted the father of the young woman about the young man's interest. If in agreement, the young man then asked the young woman's father for permission to court his daughter. Permission, if granted, allowed the young man to ask the young woman to enter into a courtship. I don't quite see this as an 'arranged' marriage, however I find it hard to believe that Sarah didn't know Zach's intentions. Before you start, I was not privy to any of the courting information and did not ask. Actually I did not know about the break up until I read Kelly's post on this site since I don't read her blog all that often. Like most people I suspected as much based on the lack of courtship info.

[Deleted07]

Surprised you didn't chime in to handslap us about the 14 pages dedicated to the courtship fail. :mrgreen:

[SisiL78]

Sorry, wrong Baylee. Never even been on the Bates Facebook Page and don't post on Kelly's blog, either. I get enough backlash from this site when I occasionally put my 2 cents worth in. Remembering Josh and Anna's engagement experience, I thought I understood that the father of the young man contacted the father of the young woman about the young man's interest. If in agreement, the young man then asked the young woman's father for permission to court his daughter. Permission, if granted, allowed the young man to ask the young woman to enter into a courtship. I don't quite see this as an 'arranged' marriage, however I find it hard to believe that Sarah didn't know Zach's intentions. Before you start, I was not privy to any of the courting information and did not ask. Actually I did not know about the break up until I read Kelly's post on this site since I don't read her blog all that often. Like most people I suspected as much based on the lack of courtship info.

How is that not like an arranged marriage? These folks make it VERY clear that they will only court once and that the courting process is basically a pre-engagement. The girl seems to have little or no input into it. Perhaps she might know before the official "asking to court" event but even if she does it does not indicate that she has a choice. If she can't go to Dad and say "I like this guy" or flirt with a guy she likes she has to wait until some other guy decides he likes her. If this isn't the guy she wants she's basically stuck. Does she keep waiting? She's been raised to be a "helpmeet" all her life and if another guy doesn't come along she's SOL.

In the worst case scenario the courting asking comes as a complete surprise (and I think Sarah was completely surprised). Its done in a public and conspicuous way. A girl who is raised to never argue and to always say yes will definitely be under pressure to say "Yes". But, once she says yes to courting breaking it off makes her into a harlot who gives away pieces of her heart. It also makes her unattractive to other fellas who are looking for a girl to marry. So its either she says yes to the engagement, which comes after a few heavily supervised dates and emails, or she is marked for life as an obstinate woman who doesn't submit enough.

The men in this situation make ALL the decisions. Therefore, this is an arranged marriage situation. Thankfully Sarah's parents are not the a-holes that some of the other Gothard parents are and let her break it off. We have no clue how much drama went on behind the scenes. Did her parents try to persuade her otherwise? Did she have to cry and carry on to "get her way" or were they sensitive to her needs?

If she didn't have a talent and made a contribution to the family business I suspect she would have been told to marry him or else.

At least in Hindu culture and other arranged marriage cultures they are straightforward about what it is. The Duggars and Bates put courting into this sweet light and talk about the heart etc.... But, underneath it all its a guy lusting after a woman and arranging her servitude to him with her father. period.

[Renting with Raggles]

How is that not like an arranged marriage? These folks make it VERY clear that they will only court once and that the courting process is basically a pre-engagement. The girl seems to have little or no input into it. Perhaps she might know before the official "asking to court" event but even if she does it does not indicate that she has a choice. If she can't go to Dad and say "I like this guy" or flirt with a guy she likes she has to wait until some other guy decides he likes her. If this isn't the guy she wants she's basically stuck. Does she keep waiting? She's been raised to be a "helpmeet" all her life and if another guy doesn't come along she's SOL.

In the worst case scenario the courting asking comes as a complete surprise (and I think Sarah was completely surprised). Its done in a public and conspicuous way. A girl who is raised to never argue and to always say yes will definitely be under pressure to say "Yes". But, once she says yes to courting breaking it off makes her into a harlot who gives away pieces of her heart. It also makes her unattractive to other fellas who are looking for a girl to marry. So its either she says yes to the engagement, which comes after a few heavily supervised dates and emails, or she is marked for life as an obstinate woman who doesn't submit enough.

The men in this situation make ALL the decisions. Therefore, this is an arranged marriage situation. Thankfully Sarah's parents are not the a-holes that some of the other Gothard parents are and let her break it off. We have no clue how much drama went on behind the scenes. Did her parents try to persuade her otherwise? Did she have to cry and carry on to "get her way" or were they sensitive to her needs?

If she didn't have a talent and made a contribution to the family business I suspect she would have been told to marry him or else.

At least in Hindu culture and other arranged marriage cultures they are straightforward about what it is. The Duggars and Bates put courting into this sweet light and talk about the heart etc.... But, underneath it all its a guy lusting after a woman and arranging her servitude to him with her father. period.

This reminds me of the ads I've seen in India this summer. There's a wacky comedy coming to tv called "Love marriage ya Arranged marriage". It's in Hindi but the premise seems to be an uptight traditional girl who wants her parents to find her a husband and her independent best friend, who naturally wants a love match. I'm guessing in the tradition of sitcoms the traditionalist will get a love match and the free spirit will fall in love with an arranged suitor.

There is also a Cadbury's ad where a nervous bride in an arranged match is clumisly flailing through her engagement ceremony. The groom presents her with diamond necklace and she's like , meh, then gives her a box of Cadbury's and she falls in love with him and gropes him in front of her new in-laws. Maybe we should send some neatly presented chocs and a copy of the commercial to the Bateses as a hint for Zach next go round?

[Deleted03]

I think that those marriages are not necessarily "arranged", but there is a big potential for that to happen, because of the role given to women, varying from family to family those women may have little choice in saying yes or no, or they might even think they have to say yes (see Razing Ruth), which makes the potential for arranged marriage where there is no consent on the part of the woman very very high.

Obviously if Sarah managed to break the courtship she might have enough input in her family.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I think that those marriages are not necessarily "arranged", but there is a big potential for that to happen, because of the role given to women, varying from family to family those women may have little choice in saying yes or no, or they might even think they have to say yes (see Razing Ruth), which makes the potential for arranged marriage where there is no consent on the part of the woman very very high.

Obviously if Sarah managed to break the courtship she might have enough input in her family.

I read something on one of the fundie blogs (I don't remember whose) where the author complained about "picky" females who had turned down multiple courtship opportunities. So it does happen.

[Alisson78]

Hey guys, I'm new here. I was just browsing these forums and I saw someone mention the possibility of courtship between Zak and Jana.

I just thought I would throw out an interesting fact for you guys.

I had personally known the Bates for about 6 or 7 years and I know for a fact that the Bates contacted the Duggars to ask for a courtship between the two. It was a huge ordeal for the Bates about 3 years ago. They went to Cracker Barrel to celebrate (mind you they hadn't called yet) and they brought the camera to record the call. Mr Duggar told them he would pray about it. After a few days that called back and rejected the offer.

Poor guy. Had his heart broken twice :\

[Deleted07]

Hm, very interesting. But I wouldn't say poor guy, necessarily. He needs to grow and learn and EARN more importantly, before he can be married. He hasn't got a proper education, or a job, how can he hope to support a wife and babies that would come almost instantly in a marriage with their beliefs?

If the story is true, I don't blame Jim Bob or The Reiths Father, nor Jana and Sarah for turning him down when asked to court with his limited prospects!

[emmiedahl]

Not that I believe everything I read on the internet, but this would explain the awkwardness that seems to have arisen between the Duggars and the Bates. There is a weird tension there in recent years.

[Daisy]

If that is true it shows just how presumptuous and entitled they are. Zak wants Jana for his wife so of course he'll have her, forget actually talking to the girl to see if she is interested in him. Really, going out to celebrate before you've even talked to the family? That is just setting him up for disappointment.

[Markie]

Well at least they got to Cracker Barrel, so not all was lost!

I honestly hope JimBob and Michelle did talk to Jana and listen to her. The courtship route is supposed to prevent braken hearts and hurt feelings - not so sure it does. Oh well, the longer these fundies remain unmarried, the fewer liil' fundies we'll have.

If this story is correct, I do feel somewhat sorry for Zach. It's his only option if he wants to maintain close ties to his parents. He should look up Mose (nat Geographic channel) - the guy who helps ex-Amish , and get a job off the Bates property.

[galaxygirl]

I hope for Lawson's sake that the kids eat for free at Cracker Barrel.

[Hisey]

If the story is true, I do think Zach and the Bates are shooting rather high. Jana Duggar? Sarah Reith? Both are fundie superstars. I understand he is the firstborn oldest son and all, but the Bates need to be realistic. Both those young women have it better at home.

I also think that the dual-rejection shows some of the negatives of fundie life. I mean, Zach is nice looking and sweet. To your average, living in poverty, homeschooling fundie girl, he might have been an attractive option. But neither of those girls wanted to start on the life of birthing a baby every two years and living in dire poverty. They had better options than conventional quiverfullness. Sarah and Jana looked at it sort of the way FJites do--a baby every two years? Poverty? Submission to some guy I hardly know? No thanks.

I think Zach needs to come courting to Bria Crawford or Cynthia Jeub--some girl who has few options in her life.

[Arete]

Isn't Cynthia Jeub going to an actual, you know, college? As in accredited, brick and motar institution of higher heathenhood? Besides, 2 of her sisters are fundie escapees. Can't see the Bateses liking that in a daughter-in-law.

[freealljs]

Is there a first born son syndrome running in these ATI families, where the first born sons think they are "all that and a bag of chips"? I wonder if Zach was brought up to believe that women, like Jana Duggar and Sarah Reith, would be eager to be his wife. For two women (or their fathers maybe) to turn such a "fine" (cough) specimen of manhood down just makes me wonder what he really is like when the doors are closed.

[CrazySister]

Is there a first born son syndrome running in these ATI families, where the first born sons think they are "all that and a bag of chips"? I wonder if Zach was brought up to believe that women, like Jana Duggar and Sarah Reith, would be eager to be his wife. For two women (or their fathers maybe) to turn such a "fine" (cough) specimen of manhood down just makes me wonder what he really is like when the doors are closed.

It's things like this that give me an iota of hope that a J'slave (including Josiah & Joy) may actually make a break for it once the show's over. I doubt Jill will ever leave, but I still hold out hope for the others.

[Lala29]

Is there a first born son syndrome running in these ATI families, where the first born sons think they are "all that and a bag of chips"? I wonder if Zach was brought up to believe that women, like Jana Duggar and Sarah Reith, would be eager to be his wife. For two women (or their fathers maybe) to turn such a "fine" (cough) specimen of manhood down just makes me wonder what he really is like when the doors are closed.

I'm not surprised at 2 failed courtships. In this lifestyle, it is supremely important that a woman marry a man who has the means to support a large family. The problem here is that, unlike other patriarchial societies, American Fundies seem determined to undermine their sons' ability to provide financially for their families. In their society, Zach is not meeting the requirements to marry.

[FloraDoraDolly]

If the story is true, I do think Zach and the Bates are shooting rather high. Jana Duggar? Sarah Reith? Both are fundie superstars. I understand he is the firstborn oldest son and all, but the Bates need to be realistic. Both those young women have it better at home.

I also think that the dual-rejection shows some of the negatives of fundie life. I mean, Zach is nice looking and sweet. To your average, living in poverty, homeschooling fundie girl, he might have been an attractive option. But neither of those girls wanted to start on the life of birthing a baby every two years and living in dire poverty. They had better options than conventional quiverfullness. Sarah and Jana looked at it sort of the way FJites do--a baby every two years? Poverty? Submission to some guy I hardly know? No thanks.

I think Zach needs to come courting to Bria Crawford or Cynthia Jeub--some girl who has few options in her life.

Zach and Rebecca K!!!!! might make a nice couple. I can see her fitting in better with the Bates family than with the miserable Maxwells.

[Boogalou]

Hey guys, I'm new here. I was just browsing these forums and I saw someone mention the possibility of courtship between Zak and Jana.

I just thought I would throw out an interesting fact for you guys.

I had personally known the Bates for about 6 or 7 years and I know for a fact that the Bates contacted the Duggars to ask for a courtship between the two. It was a huge ordeal for the Bates about 3 years ago. They went to Cracker Barrel to celebrate (mind you they hadn't called yet) and they brought the camera to record the call. Mr Duggar told them he would pray about it. After a few days that called back and rejected the offer.

Poor guy. Had his heart broken twice :\

:roll: With friends like this... It appears a lot of the fundies we snark on need to find some better friends who won't blab all their personal information to a snark board. I don't get it when people do things like this. Assuming this is true (which I doubt) and that you will come back (which I also doubt) Alisson78 what are you hoping to accomplish by posting this?

[NJMom]

I really have to wonder if that story is true. Remember, the 17 Kids and counting show got started around 4 years ago, and in one of the earlier episodes the Bates came to stay with the Duggars as BFFs (although Zack Bates admitted on camera that the families had not seen each other in about 8 or 9 years). ...afterward, I don't think the families got together again until the following winter when that huge ice storm hit Arkansas. Then, the Duggars went to the Bates home to build an addition....and were on the road all of that summer. Why would Jim Bob have stayed at the Bates house for a month or whatever it was, and also leave Joseph and JD there to help with the addition, AND turn down a courtship from Zack for Jana? It doesn't make much sense..and it would have been awkward as hell. The families wouldn't have continued to be BFFs after that, I don't think.

[Dollypeeps]

Not that I believe everything I read on the internet, but this would explain the awkwardness that seems to have arisen between the Duggars and the Bates. There is a weird tension there in recent years.

No that tension is there cos they both want to beat each other in the baby making stakes. Remember how competitive they are in earlier episodes. Just my take on it.