Zack Bates and Sarah Reith Courtship Kaput

[Haligh the Liar]

"After much prayer, Sarah decided to end the courtship."

Bull. Shit. Sarah wanted to end the courtship. Sarah decided to end the courtship. Sarah was throwing darts at the wall to plan the course of her life and hit 'end courtship'. I can't stand how fundies couch every single decision in their lives in terms of God leading/telling/laying on their hearts to do whatever.

All it is is a way to evade agency, responsibility, and personal growth and strength. Also, to a large degree, I'm sure it's the only way fundie women have a say over decisions- can't force me into a courtship, God told me to call it off. I have to write another Moody book, God told me to. complete abdication of personal choice, and in all likelihood, subconscious subterfuge to get what they want.

[Jezebel Duggar]

What Kelly says on their blog now:

Zach is grateful that he and Sarah hadn’t chosen the traditional path of dating, since it protected them from wrong goals and further pain. The three main goals of their courtship were 1. to maintain purity, 2. to discover if they were the right life partners for marriage, and 3. to honor God first and foremost in their relationship. In that sense, their courtship was a success, as they achieved each of these goals.

What Kelly said on their blog a year ago:

By Gil, June 28, 2011 @ 5:52 am

Dear Karen,

For us, courtship is like a pre-engagement stage. It allows them the chance to get to know each other on a closer emotional level than just getting to know each other on a friendship basis. The difference between dating and courtship is in the goals & commitment involved. Often people date for fun and companionship, but not neccesarily with marriage in mind. They may have dated quite a large number of people before settling down to the person they decide to marry. Courtship comes after spending time with the person and their family and getting to know them enough to sense God’s leading them toward marriage. During courtship they can “date†(We prefer chaperoned time together to avoid temptations that accompany being alone together). Its different from what most people call dating though, because there is a definite plan to move toward engagement and then marriage. Love, Kelly

Well, which is it Kelly? :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar: :liar:

[Jezebel Duggar]

Oh, the above is her answer to a comment on the "It's Official" post on her blog of bullshit.

[Deleted07]

I was actually going to ask and see if she had taken down all the Sarah Reith courtship stuff.

[formergothardite]

Somebody please quote those two things she wrote and ask her. LOL

[Deleted07]

Just looking at Sarah's family band blog website Southern Raised, and I can't seem to find any photos or posts featuring Zach, except for one from August 2011...

http://southernraisedbluegrass.com/pics ... estival-1/

They obviously went through and deleted some posts, I seem to remember quite a few photos of him and her on their band blog with him following her around to various music festivals and such, and also their announcing the courtship, all having been taken down!

This is all thats left:

*awkward*

[dpndetfarm]

I have never really seen the Bates Family before except, interestingly enough, for the clip which led me to freejinger in the first place (the skinny horses). I found the whole courtship proposal heartbreaking for both kids. Zack looked like he wanted to curl up and die and Sarah looked like she wanted to burst out laughing, but was too polite and realized there was a camera crew present. How on earth could the parents allow something SO PRIVATE to be turned into a circus?!? That was incredibly disrespectful of both "kids". There was nothing "normal" about that relationship. It had no business being on TV. I am sure Sarah will come out of the whole debacle pretty much untouched, but Zack appears to be far less sophisticated and incredibly naive and gullible. I imagine he is crushed.

I have no idea what either person is like in "real life". I don't really care whether either is a jerk or a thug or an angel. Putting Zack's proposal on air like that was cruel to both parties. End of story.

Kristin

[velly]

I have to believe that Kelly is an idiot. There's really no difference between a broken courtship and a dating relationship except the "purity" nonsense and maybe the expectations. Plenty of people, especially young people, can date someone for a few weeks or months without having sex with them. Dating isn't some secret code word for prostitution, and there's no way that ending a courtship is less painful than a breakup after dating. The only things you have invested in a courtship are your emotions (since there's nothing physical) and the expectation that you will eventually marry the other person. They are in denial.

I usually don't "date" and when I do date there's no sex involved and while there might be kissing I keep it to a minimum. I invest only my emotions and you know what? It does hurt.... Oh, I am also an atheist and think the whole 'god' thing and 'purity' thing are bullshit. It's a personal choice on my part and many fundies would be surprised I am probably more ´pure' (in their misogynist and idiotic sense) than a lot of my Christian friends.

Note: I am totally FOR and have nothing against casual sex but I simply cannot bring myself to trust people enough to let them close to my physically until at least MONTHS have gone by. I blame my sexual assault for that but if people wanna go out there and have some casual sex I'm more than happy for them (if not a little envious).

[IReallyAmHopewell]

I think it's interesting that an elected official has to take a sibling with him everywhere, has to ask his parents permission to propose to a girl and has to live at home whether he wants to or not.

[theologygeek]

Courting doesn't guard a heart. It guards virginity. Zack wouldn't need time to heal if he didn't already give his heart away. Just goes to show you that love is love with or without the sex. It also goes to show you that money is money with or without God in it, and Joshua Harris made millions from his book on courtship. Fundies who bought into the idea were duped.

[gustava]

Courting doesn't guard a heart. It guards virginity. Zack wouldn't need time to heal if he didn't already give his heart away. Just goes to show you that love is love with or without the sex. It also goes to show you that money is money with or without God in it, and Joshua Harris made millions from his book on courtship. Fundies who bought into the idea were duped.

Never thought of it this way, but I think you've hit the nail on the head.

[E Street Fan]

I think it's interesting that an elected official has to take a sibling with him everywhere, has to ask his parents permission to propose to a girl and has to live at home whether he wants to or not.

Zack can't afford to move out even if he had the set to do it--Lawson can't afford to support two households. ;)

[Renting with Raggles]

Courting doesn't guard a heart. It guards virginity. Zack wouldn't need time to heal if he didn't already give his heart away. Just goes to show you that love is love with or without the sex. It also goes to show you that money is money with or without God in it, and Joshua Harris made millions from his book on courtship. Fundies who bought into the idea were duped.

True. Just wish fundies had the balls to come out and admit their true motives. I'd respect them a lot more if they just claimed this was a religious practice rather than wanking around with faux-secular and pseudoscientific waffle.

[singsingsing]

What boggles my mind is that fundies really believe that dating is going to automatically lead you into 'sin' and sexual impurity, or whatever. I have friends who are Christians. They dated. They were alone together all the time. The woman in the relationship wore shorts and tanktops and bikinis (NIKE!!). They also decided to wait until marriage to have sex. That was their personal choice, and it worked for them! I've known many people like this - they date, they decide no sex until marriage, and they're successful. I'm not saying no one ever slips up, but what do fundies think God appreciates more, fencing yourself in with insane levels of legalism, or exercising your God-given self-control? I guess unfortunately we all know the answer to that...

I was sucked into the whole 'purity' thing a while ago. Luckily I didn't go too far down that road, but it really opened my eyes. It's appealing at first. At first you think it's making you happy, imposing all these rigid rules and expectations on yourself and everyone else. But after a while I realized that a) I was miserable, b) my relationship with God and everyone else was suffering, and c) I'd never thought about sex so much in my life. Funny, that.

[xReems]

Kelly wrote a response to someone regarding courtship:

Dear Randy,

Yes, dating can also have a commitment to purity, if the two involved are committed to that resolve. Although, regular dating doesn’t always focus on any type of commitment… often, dating is done just for fun and one person could easily date several dozens of people before settling down to pursue a more serious relationship. During that time, purity is often not a priority. We have a pastor friend that chooses to call it “dating with a purpose,†and shares the same desire for purity. I don’t think the goal of trying to find the right person to marry is embarrassing. Ending a relationship, whether you call it dating with purpose or courtship, obviously can be heartbreaking… but if purity, friendship, and discernment to find God’s will for your future have been achieved… they can have peace with their decisions, rather than guilt. God bless, Kelly

1) I love how she generalizes how dating is just for fun, whereas, courtship is not. I've dated a few guys in the past before my current boyfriend. Yes, I gave "pieces of my heart away" and one of the relationship was just for fun (even though it was not sexual) but those past relationships made me stronger.

2) Kelly and Gil chose the dating path and they have turned out okay. They've set an example that dating can make any relationship work but Gothard has scared them into believing that dating = sex = sin, which is stupid.

3) There is going to be some sense of guilt, no matter what path you have chosen. For Zack, even though no physical touching was involved, he still opened his heart up to Sarah and expressed his deepest thoughts and feelings to her. There's going to be guilt on his part since he showed her his emotional side since he thought this was going to lead to marriage. There's going to be some embarrassment since he thought from the beginning they were going to be together forever and it didn't happen. Kelly can try to make excuses and sugar coat it all she wants but a courtship break up will similar outcomes to a dating break up. There is no such thing as a "successful courtship." I've had my heart broken in the past but I remained pure in all of those--does that mean those relationships were successful and I should feel happy about it?

[Hisey]

Here is the difference between dating and courtship: In courtship, the parents are heavily involved and they can guilt/manipulate their vulnerable, not-quite-adult children into doing what they want. They can convince them that touching each other is bad (God wants purity, etc etc), chaperones are necessary (pieces of heart, etc), or whatever else the PARENTS need to feel comfortable about their babies becoming sexual beings.

Most teenagers and young adults still need and want their parents approval, and still believe their parents' advice. Even if they had bad parents, kids around 15-25 are still striving to get their parents' approval. Parents who advocate "courtship" take advantage of this need for approval, and use it to promote these controls on "sexual temptations." Really, they just can't stand the thought of their daughters and sons being sexually active, or being in situations where they could be sexually active.

I suspect that if Zach and Sarah had ever been left alone, they would not have immediately had sex. They have enough internal controls based on years of indoctrination. But super-controlling parents can't believe this. So they invented courtship, which is a way for parents to say, "Let me be involved in this! You need me here, too! You can't handle this on your own!"

The funny thing is, if you have 19 adult kids, it is really hard to control where they are and what they are doing every minute of the day. By this I mean, the parents are eventually going to lose this control over their kids.

Edited to remove the quotes around "bad" parents

[FaeT]

Here is the difference between dating and courtship: In courtship, the parents are heavily involved and they can guilt/manipulate their vulnerable, not-quite-adult children into doing what they want. They can convince them that touching each other is bad (God wants purity, etc etc), chaperones are necessary (pieces of heart, etc), or whatever else the PARENTS need to feel comfortable about their babies becoming sexual beings.

Most teenagers and young adults still need and want their parents approval, and still believe their parents' advice. Even if they had "bad" parents, kids around 15-25 are still striving to get their parents' approval. Parents who advocate "courtship" take advantage of this need for approval, and use it to promote these controls on "sexual temptations." Really, they just can't stand the thought of their daughters and sons being sexually active, or being in situations where they could be sexually active.

I suspect that if Zach and Sarah had ever been left alone, they would not have immediately had sex. They have enough internal controls based on years of indoctrination. But super-controlling parents can't believe this. So they invented courtship, which is a way for parents to say, "Let me be involved in this! You need me here, too! You can't handle this on your own!"

The funny thing is, if you have 19 adult kids, it is really hard to control where they are and what they are doing every minute of the day. By this I mean, the parents are eventually going to lose this control over their kids.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Here's a question: Can they be each others chaperones? Like is JD and Jana were both being courted, could they go on a double date and act as each others chaperone? Or would they still need another chaperone since the two could still part ways and go be "alone". It's not like they could "tell" on each other bc then they would be in trouble, too.

[Sprocket]

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Here's a question: Can they be each others chaperones? Like is JD and Jana were both being courted, could they go on a double date and act as each others chaperone? Or would they still need another chaperone since the two could still part ways and go be "alone". It's not like they could "tell" on each other bc then they would be in trouble, too.

Who knows. I think they make the rules up as they go along. Also, I think it differs from family to family. Some have a no touching rule and some allow all of the hand sex you can stomach.

[FaeT]

Or maybe they just caught an old episode of 17kac ..

[SoSoNosy]

I have a huge problem with their sending Addalee with Zach, when he was supposedly going to "court'. She is a fairly small child, and would need attention and caring. I know Michaella was with them, but that's beside the point; why do you send a very young sibling along as a chaperone??

[freealljs]

I have a huge problem with their sending Addalee with Zach, when he was supposedly going to "court'. She is a fairly small child, and would need attention and caring. I know Michaella was with them, but that's beside the point; why do you send a very young sibling along as a chaperone??

Gil and Kelly "Jo" couldn't watch Addallee, because the the parents couldn't be bothered watching their own child at the time. Plus, Michaella is probably her sister-mom.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I have a huge problem with their sending Addalee with Zach, when he was supposedly going to "court'. She is a fairly small child, and would need attention and caring. I know Michaella was with them, but that's beside the point; why do you send a very young sibling along as a chaperone??

Maybe Addallee is the tattletale Cindy Brady of the Bates family?

[xReems]

I think Michaella might have wanted to bring her along. Kelly did say that she loves little children and can always be seen holding a little one. Either that or maybe Addalee is attached to Michaella and didn't want her to go away. You know, the same thing how Jennifer is attached to Jill.

It is true that courtship involves heavy manipulation. The girls have no say and can't just walk up to their parents and say "I'm falling for so and so." Whoever calls up the father and seems "worthy enough" is the one who the daughter will either have to accept or reject. I don't feel like there's any spark or firework, which is what I like the most about being in a relationship. I remember before I started dating my honey, I enjoyed getting those butterflies in my stomach and constantly smiling and giggling. I still do that, but that's besides the point :). I was reading Valerie Mueller and Adam Waller's courtship story and it just sounded such a bore. They spent a day together before Adam officially asked Valerie to enter a courtship relationship.

Back to Zack--he got waaaay too emotional when he asked Sarah to be in a courtship relationship with him. Even my boyfriend thought it was strange..and then laughed.

[FloraDoraDolly]

I think Michaella might have wanted to bring her along. Kelly did say that she loves little children and can always be seen holding a little one. Either that or maybe Addalee is attached to Michaella and didn't want her to go away. You know, the same thing how Jennifer is attached to Jill.

It is true that courtship involves heavy manipulation. The girls have no say and can't just walk up to their parents and say "I'm falling for so and so." Whoever calls up the father and seems "worthy enough" is the one who the daughter will either have to accept or reject. I don't feel like there's any spark or firework, which is what I like the most about being in a relationship. I remember before I started dating my honey, I enjoyed getting those butterflies in my stomach and constantly smiling and giggling. I still do that, but that's besides the point :). I was reading Valerie Mueller and Adam Waller's courtship story and it just sounded such a bore. They spent a day together before Adam officially asked Valerie to enter a courtship relationship.

Back to Zack--he got waaaay too emotional when he asked Sarah to be in a courtship relationship with him. Even my boyfriend thought it was strange..and then laughed.

I cringe whenever I think of Zack asking Sarah to court. That poor guy was so nervous and the whole procedure (I don't know what else to call it) was so awkward. Zack reminded of a zoo animal who has spent his entire life in captivity and never learned how to behave naturally around other animals. I wonder if he and Sarah ever started feeling comfortable around each other? If not, that could be why the courtship failed.

[Handmaiden of Dog]

Ugh. That is hard to watch. And no kidding! it was insanely awkward. Was that the first time they had met face-to-face? So Romeo is a big ole pumpkin-headed mumbler surrounded by his giggling family members. It must have felt to her like feeding time at the zoo and she was the main meal. Why would any shy young girl put herself through that unless she was already attracted to the man?

I felt her embarrassment intensely and I think y'all were right about her just sitting there making plans for her escape; probably cussin her own daddy under her breath for putting her in that situation. This is why I think the Daddy involvement is a terrible idea: how many times have you gone on a blind date only to end up spending time with a toad? I know every blind date I ever went on was a bad, bad idea.

This reminds me of reading memoirs by women in FLDS being told by strange men "God has laid it on my heart that we are to be married." Sometimes the women were already married. I think that translates as "I got the hots for you so lets have a ceremony so we can fuck."