Zack Bates and Sarah Reith Courtship Kaput

[xReems]

Perhaps both were on different levels on their feelings towards each other? Zack got pretty emotional when he was asking Sarah to be in a courtship with him and Sarah responded with that typical fundie smile and a "thank you." I think Zack might have had stronger feelings for her than she had for him..

It was a bitch move on Kelly to point out that it was Sarah who broke Zack's heart. She could have easily said "after careful prayers, they have decided to go separate ways" or something along those lines. I wonder if Zack had already bought a ring for Sarah and was about planning on proposing to her when she suddenly wanted to break it off. That would piss off any son's mothers.

[patsymae]

I agree, Kelly could have just laid on the "after much prayer, Zach and Sarah realized that God had other plans for them..." instead of being a bitch.

I don't get Zach. I would think he is just a very socially and educationally delayed nice guy, but that doesn't jibe with him being on the county commission or the pontification about Santorum (which I firmly believe was written by a Santorum staffer) that appeared under his name. I do think he wanted to get into music (or his family wanted the connection to promote their own "music") and connection with the Reith's was the way to go. I suspect also that obviously the Reith family is more sophisticated--they do get out and meet other people outside their family, and they do operate a successful business and they are exposed to real music and I suspect musicians from outside their circle (like other bluegrass musicians who might be southerners and Christians but not Duggar/Bates versions). So Sarah probably has access to a lot of guys who would meet Daddy's standards while still also having a foot at least in the real world.

I can't help thinking that Zach is being used by his parents and that he honestly believed that this "courtship," especially after approval by Daddy Reith, was simply a formality on the path to an arranged marriage.

I feel sorry for the guy--sort of.

[gilora]

Sarah dodged a bullet. Could you imagine having Gil and "Kelly Jo" as in-laws?

I don't think there will be a Bates-Duggar courtship, unless it's a Duggar man courting a Bates woman. Jim Bob would never allow one of his princesses to marry "beneath" them.

[countressrascal]

Zack is still horny-I wonder if he uses the right or left 5 strippers?

[Deleted07]

I was thinking in the car just now, maybe daddy Reith thought it was good publicity for them, being more involved in a proper band with a business side attached!

Never know I guess. It did always surprise me that they announced it the way they did and let it go on the tv special etc.

As I said, the only "good" thing about the Duggar Courtship with Anna, was at least they didn't announce anything until the actual proposal was said and done (then the fame-whoring came).

So not announcing it publically like that, at least saves on embarrassment and hurt etc.

Always seemed odd that for people who are so concerned with modesty and propriety in situations, that they didn't think at least, hmm, lets keep it on the down-low and be modest and proper and only announce it at an appropriate time... but then the fame-whoring comes into play, which always overules their godly devotions...

[NJMom]

Well, I'm a little sorry for Zack, but happy that Sarah was allowed to be the one to call it off if she truly felt it wasn't right for her. I do have to wonder if the Bates' upcoming television show was enough for her and her parents to give a second thought to the idea of marrying into this family and having your life displayed on television. There have to be some fundy families who don't think that the Duggars and Bates are doing the right thing by exploiting their minor children for profit with a television show. No matter what they think, neither family is better than Kate Gosselin.

[MissSeptember]

Logistically, how does breaking up a courtship usually work? Does the dad call and say he is terminating the relationship? Does the girl write an email, proofread by her parents? Does she wait until he proposes marriage and then say no?

[Sprocket]

Well, I'm a little sorry for Zack, but happy that Sarah was allowed to be the one to call it off if she truly felt it wasn't right for her. I do have to wonder if the Bates' upcoming television show was enough for her and her parents to give a second thought to the idea of marrying into this family and having your life displayed on television. There have to be some fundy families who don't think that the Duggars and Bates are doing the right thing by exploiting their minor children for profit with a television show. No matter what they think, neither family is better than Kate Gosselin.

They were probably less than thrilled with the prospect of their daughter giving birth on the toilet for the world to see...

[DarkAnts]

Frankly, I dont think either of them were mature enough for marriage anyway. I also think that Sarah and family also saw the living and financial conditions of the Bates family. I dont know anything about the Reith familys finances. But, I would be one concerned future help mate if I found out that my future headships family was living in poverty and not doing much to find a way out of it.

[ceg045]

And assuming that all their conversations are chaperoned, how awkward must that breakup have been?

[Mind UR own uteress]

I had the feeling that it wouldn't work out at least time-wise because of her musical career right now. She and her siblings are so talented and i thought it a shame to see all that go to "waste" or the band broken up. Poor guy.

[lilah]

I agree, Kelly could have just laid on the "after much prayer, Zach and Sarah realized that God had other plans for them..." instead of being a bitch.

I don't get Zach. I would think he is just a very socially and educationally delayed nice guy, but that doesn't jibe with him being on the county commission or the pontification about Santorum (which I firmly believe was written by a Santorum staffer) that appeared under his name. I do think he wanted to get into music (or his family wanted the connection to promote their own "music") and connection with the Reith's was the way to go. I suspect also that obviously the Reith family is more sophisticated--they do get out and meet other people outside their family, and they do operate a successful business and they are exposed to real music and I suspect musicians from outside their circle (like other bluegrass musicians who might be southerners and Christians but not Duggar/Bates versions). So Sarah probably has access to a lot of guys who would meet Daddy's standards while still also having a foot at least in the real world.

I can't help thinking that Zach is being used by his parents and that he honestly believed that this "courtship," especially after approval by Daddy Reith, was simply a formality on the path to an arranged marriage.

I feel sorry for the guy--sort of.

Yeah and it's further proof that the courtship model doesn't really protect a person from a broken heart. Just becuase they didn't hold hands or anything doesn't protect them from developing feelings. It was clear that Zach had some strong feelings for Sarah and was lead to believe that if he did everything right they'd get married. Had they been allowed to behave like secular 22 year olds he would have asked her out and she might have turned him down or gone out once and then turned down, and then not had these overblown expectations that they were going to get married and have 22 kids with names that begin with Z (Zevan, Zally, Zandra) . It still sucked to have your heart broken it's kind of the normal experience of being in your twenties

[fundiefan]

Sounds like a boyfriend and girlfriend broke up.

Call it courtship all you want; give it a 'godly' purpose in your mind all you want.

It was still a relationship that didn't work out.

[FaeT]

I agree, Kelly could have just laid on the "after much prayer, Zach and Sarah realized that God had other plans for them..." instead of being a bitch.

I don't get Zach. I would think he is just a very socially and educationally delayed nice guy, but that doesn't jibe with him being on the county commission or the pontification about Santorum (which I firmly believe was written by a Santorum staffer) that appeared under his name. I do think he wanted to get into music (or his family wanted the connection to promote their own "music") and connection with the Reith's was the way to go. I suspect also that obviously the Reith family is more sophisticated--they do get out and meet other people outside their family, and they do operate a successful business and they are exposed to real music and I suspect musicians from outside their circle (like other bluegrass musicians who might be southerners and Christians but not Duggar/Bates versions). So Sarah probably has access to a lot of guys who would meet Daddy's standards while still also having a foot at least in the real world.

I can't help thinking that Zach is being used by his parents and that he honestly believed that this "courtship," especially after approval by Daddy Reith, was simply a formality on the path to an arranged marriage.

I feel sorry for the guy--sort of.

Isn't that all a courtship is??

And yeah, Kelly is definitely being a bitch here. There is just no need for her call Sarah out like that. But remember, when a courtship or marriage fails, it's always her fault. Smugger had a failed courtship before Anna, too. At least she wasn't on tv. Hell not everyone is even in agreement with who she was. (I'd suspect a Wilson girl if they didn't all dance and play bluegrass)

[FaeT]

Logistically, how does breaking up a courtship usually work? Does the dad call and say he is terminating the relationship? Does the girl write an email, proofread by her parents? Does she wait until he proposes marriage and then say no?

Since the boy has to call the girls dad to get permission, I'm assuming the dad calls the boy to tell him it's off. At least that's a private conversation.

I don't think there will be a Bates-Duggar courtship, unless it's a Duggar man courting a Bates woman. Jim Bob would never allow one of his princesses to marry "beneath" them.

Ya know, I didn't think of that. You're probably right. The Duggars are definitely "above" the Bates. At least the Duggars are (here's a word I thought I'd never use to describe them) responsible enough to carry health insurance for their children instead of relying on the ER. At least the Duggars don't openly admit to borrow money from their children. Poor Lawson bought the families groceries bc his dad hadn't been paid yet. He "loaned" (i.e. gave) a thousand dollars to Zack to buy a car. (Maybe that's another reason Sarah called this off. He needed a loan for a car. How financially stable can he possibly be?) He gave another "couple thousand" to Erin to pay for college. That poor kid plays a significant part in supporting his family, a family he never asked to be a part of. His earnings support children he never had a "conviction" to have. How fair is that to him?? I'm not sure which is worse: being a duggar girl and doing slave labour or being Lawson Bates and having your older siblings and parents "borrow" money from you to support themselves and buy food. That is not right.

[Deleted07]

Yeah I think it downright sucks ass that this kid is financially supporting his parents. I hold a personal grudge with this, as its something my parents did to me!

They were terrible with money and debt and I started working young just to get things for myself. But then the borrowing started... However all too often I was guilted into letting them forget the debt they had with me, only for them to turn around a month later to borrow more with more promises to pay back. But when another month comes around and more bills need to be taken care of, again you are relenting and letting them forget it so they can take that money to help them out of that tough spot, and so it continues.

You cannot tell me this doesn't happen with poor Lawson and it downright sucks! :x

[luckystone]

Hahahahaha so they do need time to heal and were in pain. Even though it was a courtship. And they did it right. If they'd called it dating or hung out together without a chaperone, they would be in EVEN MORE PAIN. This makes no sense and these people are crazy. Also interesting to hear about failed courtships broken off on one side (and pleased to hear the girl had a choice).

[FloraDoraDolly]

Yeah I think it downright sucks ass that this kid is financially supporting his parents. I hold a personal grudge with this, as its something my parents did to me!

They were terrible with money and debt and I started working young just to get things for myself. But then the borrowing started... However all too often I was guilted into letting them forget the debt they had with me, only for them to turn around a month later to borrow more with more promises to pay back. But when another month comes around and more bills need to be taken care of, again you are relenting and letting them forget it so they can take that money to help them out of that tough spot, and so it continues.

You cannot tell me this doesn't happen with poor Lawson and it downright sucks! :x

I have a friend whose mother stole her identity and ran up thousands and thousands of dollars in credit card debt in her name. I hope nothing like this happens to Lawson.

[snickerz]

From the Bates family blog:

In spite of the pain of parting, he is full of memories and experiences that have encouraged him, strengthened him, challenged him, and humbled him. He can appreciate the growth that has taken place in his life as a result of these circumstances.

Hey Kelly, the exact same could be said about most dating situations that don't work out. You learn from them and become a better person, more capable of knowing what you are really looking for in a relationship.

[muffynbear]

I wish Kelly "Jo" would just come out and fucking say it: They weren't compatible and there was no way in hell the relationship was going work in a courtship environment. End of story.

Stop dragging this shit out Kelly "Jo". This courtship FAILED. Just like dating fails at times. I'm so sick of these sanctimonious assholes who sugar coat this shit.

[FaeT]

Yeah I think it downright sucks ass that this kid is financially supporting his parents. I hold a personal grudge with this, as its something my parents did to me!

They were terrible with money and debt and I started working young just to get things for myself. But then the borrowing started... However all too often I was guilted into letting them forget the debt they had with me, only for them to turn around a month later to borrow more with more promises to pay back. But when another month comes around and more bills need to be taken care of, again you are relenting and letting them forget it so they can take that money to help them out of that tough spot, and so it continues.

You cannot tell me this doesn't happen with poor Lawson and it downright sucks! :x

Am I having DeJa Vu or did you post this earlier in another thread? I'm not bitching, I'm just making sure I'm not going to crazy.

That's really shitty that your parents did that to you. Down right bullshit. I can't stand parents who steal from their children like that. My ex's father - sperm donor - is like that, too. My ex eventually ended up without a penny to his name bc his father stole it all and guilted him out of it. Did it to his sister, too. People are so fucking cruel. I hope you are far enough away (physically and/or emotionally) from your parents that this doesn't happen anymore.

I'm very fortunate to have parents who are the complete opposite of this. My dad will take me to the grocery store (bc I don't have a car) and when he knows I'm really short on money, he just buys it without saying anything and then tells me to keep my money when I try to pay him back. I hate that he feels he has to do that but he wants to make sure my kids are fed. And I thank him every single time. I thank him all the time. And when I have money, I buy him a gift card to a restaurant that he likes that I would never go to bc it's the only way I can "trick" him into taking money from me. You cannot tell me that those parents and siblings thank Lawson each and every day and make a point to make him feel special and appreciated and loved. No fucking way.

[socalrules]

I think the level of poverty the Bates live in may have played a role in the break-up. Think about it. We all know about their inability to support their family without help from Lawson. Lawson even gave money to Zack for something, I don't remember what. The Reith family would know all this as well. When Zack proposed to Sarah, it was at the Reith family home, which looked pretty nice to me. Why would Sarah want to go from a nice life with her family to near poverty with Zack, all the while pumping out baby after baby? I know Zack was on some council he didn't get paid for but does he have a real job? How would he have ever supported Sarah? I thought that maybe he would trim trees with Gil but I would bet he gets little to no money from that.

[xReems]

Zack seems like a sweet man but I think he has the same twisted views as his parents which might have turned Sarah off. What if Sarah wanted to continue her music career or create a band with him after marriage but Zack did not approve? Remember that Gil and Kelly preach that a woman should be a stay at home wife and mother so it's possible that Zack wanted the same with Sarah and she might not have liked that.

Kelly can say it sweetly as she wants how Sarah carefully prayed about it but the truth is that Sarah saw a major flaw in Zack, his family or both and wanted out. I think when they featured the courtship video on television, Sarah got a glimpse of what her life would be like after marriage and didn't approve of it and wanted out.

[Witsec7]

Zack seems like a sweet man but I think he has the same twisted views as his parents which might have turned Sarah off. What if Sarah wanted to continue her music career or create a band with him after marriage but Zack did not approve? Remember that Gil and Kelly preach that a woman should be a stay at home wife and mother so it's possible that Zack wanted the same with Sarah and she might not have liked that.

Kelly can say it sweetly as she wants how Sarah carefully prayed about it but the truth is that Sarah saw a major flaw in Zack, his family or both and wanted out. I think when they featured the courtship video on television, Sarah got a glimpse of what her life would be like after marriage and didn't approve of it and wanted out.

In spite of the parents say the girls have input, I don't feel that they really make the decisions. Coercion is not the same as free choice. I do think that the way these fundy parents express approval or disproval is equal to coercion and intimidation.

[xReems]

That's true and you do bring up a valuable point regarding a girl's input. It could be that Sarah's dad might have put in his 2 cents in order to coerce her into courting him. It could be that Zack truly thought that this courtship would end up in a marriage but Sarah might have had her doubts. She could have had doubts from the beginning but her dad might have convinced her into giving it a shot. Doubts = Satan talk, according to fundies anyways, so who knows.

These fundies preach about how courtship is perfect in finding the one God leads you to yet fail makes excuses when these courtships fail by saying it was a "successful courtship" since it was pure and involving God. There are so many couples out there who dated many men or women yet have had one their right one and been married for over 30 years or so. I wonder how fundie parents explain this to their children or do they completely leave this part out when they explain how evil dating can be.