Jill & Jessa Special, Sunday, December 27

[AmazonGrace]

 

50 minutes ago, Mercer said:

Medically trained midwives are not necessarily available everywhere, but Jill doesn't seem to me to be much of a solution. A barely qualified, inexperienced midwife who doesn't speak the language and can hardly find the time to leave her apartment isn't even going to make a dent in the problem at best and could put the laboring mother at risk at worst. (What happens if Jill can't understand what the mother is saying is going wrong, and doesn't have the experience/training to recognize the complication herself? She could kill someone while trying to "help.") Even if she manages to avoid doing major damage, she'll be returning to the United States in a few months or at most a few years; she is not a permanent resource for the community.

The money that has been spent on Jill and Derrick's Guatemalan vacation could have been much better spent paying for midwifery training for local women, and would have gone a lot further in helping mothers and the communities as a whole.

 

Not sure how reliable this site is (they  are  collecting money so they'd have an agenda) but I found this.

Quote

The majority of Guatemalan women give birth at home,
with midwives attending 90% of all births in rural areas.

http://midwivesformidwives.org/ixmucane/

[Valerie3kids]

12 minutes ago, AmazonGrace said:

 

 

Not sure how reliable this site is (they  are  collecting money so they'd have an agenda) but I found this.

http://midwivesformidwives.org/ixmucane/

I am terrified that Jill would be more of a problem than any kind of help. I fear the loss of a child or mother under her care is the only thing that is going to force her to realize that she is not as qualified as she has led herself and others to believe. It is very scary.

Michelle looks terrible. Tired and haggard. I guess all that sweet has started to take a toll on her. I still think she is either on meds or needs to be on meds. She seems to be totally out of touch with the everything from her feelings to the world. I see Jill pushing her feelings down just like her mother and following right down the same path.

Anna looks great. Has she had braces since she married Josh? I just don't remember such a nice smile but it may be due to the fact she was always looking sideways at the smug and we never got a full face shot of her. I do fear she has done all the work so smug won't stray which just makes me want to hurl. He doesn't deserve her. Never has.

[Buzzard]

What was striking to me was that Anna referred to the "sweet" memories in the "starter" home... but he cheated on her while they were there as well.   Also, its pretty insulting to call something a "starter" home when you dont have shit to your name at the moment, mostly because your husband is a pig and you wont work.

I was not surprised about the Jessa in labor shots.  I actually thought they'd show more.  I think by the time the spurge was born TLC knew that there wouldnt be any ad money for the show, so they relied on "duggar films" to provide the footage rather than pay the crew. 

[KSmom]

36 minutes ago, Mercer said:

One of the most frustrating parts about the Jill situation to me is that her basic idea to provide midwifery instruction in under-served communities isn't a bad one at all - it's just that she cut so many corners in going about it that she has the potential to do more harm than good.

If Jill had been serious about going to Guatemala to do midwifery training, she could have qualified as a certified nurse midwife. As an RN, she would be much more useful to the community she intends to serve. She could have gained a few years of experience working at an established midwifery practice before leaving the United States so she would become better able to recognize and treat complications that may arise, and also to observe how best to educate other midwives. During this time she could have studied Spanish with a tutor as she is now, so she could dive into full language immersion when they got there. She and Derrick could have either delayed childbearing for a little while to focus on their work, or waited until Izzy was a little older and less dependent before leaving.

That would have taken years, though. It would have taken actual hard work. And frankly, I don't get the impression Jill cares enough to devote years or actual hard work to "Central America."

This whole thing seems to me to be just a way to avoid having to get paid jobs because living on "support" is more fun than the daily grind of being employed, to escape the fallout from the family scandals, and to have an exotic vacation they didn't have to do anything to earn. Jill could have done some real good, but she didn't put in the time or work it would take; instead they just went down to Guatemala to play missionaries and smile for photo ops.

I agree completely with everything that you have said, they both could do a lot of good with real help, if they hadn't gone at this so half-assed. Derick's accounting skills could be used and if Jill had taken the time and made the effort to get real training and experience she could give women real help.

But, I think two things have contributed to this: 1) The Duggars have this idea that they can do anything without teaching and training, and 2) I really think that they wanted to get away as quickly as they could.

Even their support raising has been done horribly, and they would not be able to survive if it weren't for the TLC money and the leghumpers that will support them no matter what. (Support raising done right, for the long term, is a lot of work, especially in the beginning. And it takes time to actually raise the funds needed, not the quickie timeline that Derick and Jill did.)

[RabbitKM]

Jill speaks Spanish horribly, especially for someone who has been trying to learn Spanish for years now.  In the earlier seasons of the show, we saw Jill practicing Spanish in Arkansas, I distinctly remember her writing notecards to learn vocab.  And yet.  And it is so naive for Derek, who could have studied a foreign language in college and high school, to parade about in "Central America" barely able to say a word yet he thinks he is God's gift (or should I say, "regala" lol) to the orphanage, handing out one page of a coloring book.  

The birth scenes were actually nice.  If I took anything away from them, its that I want allll the drugs when I give birth.  Jessa almost looked like she could hardly go on pushing by the end.

[Valerie3kids]

5 minutes ago, Buzzard said:

What was striking to me was that Anna referred to the "sweet" memories in the "starter" home... but he cheated on her while they were there as well.   Also, its pretty insulting to call something a "starter" home when you dont have shit to your name at the moment, mostly because your husband is a pig and you wont work.

I was not surprised about the Jessa in labor shots.  I actually thought they'd show more.  I think by the time the spurge was born TLC knew that there wouldnt be any ad money for the show, so they relied on "duggar films" to provide the footage rather than pay the crew. 

I really think Anna having any sweet memories at this point shows how deep in the koolaid she is. I can not imagine having happy thoughts about anything that went on in that house so soon after having my world shaken to it's core. The more she speaks the more I have trouble feeling any sympathy for her. I have a lot of trouble with anyone staying with someone who has molested little girls and has a daughter. Is her head that deep in the sand? Plus, that starter home was handed to them as Grandma moved into the compound. It isn't like she and Josh worked hard and saved up to get their first house. None of the kids have had to live in an apartment once married. Actually, now that I think about it most of them haven't had to work either!

[gemma]

Watched last night an noticed:

Major shock value on the delivery of Spurgeon. Don't know how many watched but that was one major gush of blood afterward. Enough to make ME gasp and I can tolerate a lot visually.

Michelle looks like hell. She looks like she lost weight through this whole thing and gained a some serious wrinkles. Permanent startled look on her face. They are wiggling her back into the show. 

Boob is being wiggled back into the show as well, although he probably can't stand playing second fiddle to his daughters and sons in law. 

The little kids are insanely freaking cute as always. Jordan got the jinder call and was a darling. 

Anna looks like a million freaking bucks. I'm shocked that she doesn't look totally worn down like Michelle. But, good for her though. Seriously.

Still no word of what country Jill and Derick and little Israel are in. Jill looks like she's running around being a big interloper again, but hopefully she can offer the people some actual skills. I'm sure she'd never off birth control to those who feel they need it. Their Spanish still sucks. Their living quarters are gorgeous, at least for now. Mrs. Dillard looked so sad to have to leave   

MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR issues with adoption knowledge and approach. They seem to think it's a lot easier than it is. You don't point to children in an orphanage and claim them, as the show leads the uninitiated to believe. There are many rules in place for each country and you often don't qualify in you are popping them out regularly on your own.  There also is a lot of "saviorism" in their attitudes. They will also need to be lifelong learners (as do all of us adoptive parents) with regard to interracial adoption if that is, in fact, the route they choose. 

At least these specials had some actual topics they focused around. Without another major series of actual events (courtships, engagements, marriages, births) there ain't much to talk about. Even those events are hard to stretch out for an hour. I don't foresee another series of specials for quite some time. Even Jill said she's not preg.

Stupid fillers: professional photo shoots of Bin and Jessa because she's mega-pregnant, Jill prodding bellies, guys taking Bin out for his last day before fatherhood (or something like that), plus many more. 

Wondering if and when they will try to wiggle Smuggar back in. 

And probably a lot more that I'm not thinking of at the moment......

 

[ladyaudley]

I agree that Anna looks waaay better than she ever has. I think it helps that she is at the Duggar compound (no matter how much that sucks for various reasons) and has the sister moms to help her with the four little ones - that way she can spend some time on/by herself. Her hair is noticeably longer and straighter than it ever was with joshypoo - maybe an assertion of some individuality? 

[gemma]

19 minutes ago, ladyaudley said:

I agree that Anna looks waaay better than she ever has. I think it helps that she is at the Duggar compound (no matter how much that sucks for various reasons) and has the sister moms to help her with the four little ones - that way she can spend some time on/by herself. Her hair is noticeably longer and straighter than it ever was with joshypoo - maybe an assertion of some individuality? 

That would be great. I think part of it might just be that she's not so suffocated by Smuggar right now. 

Oh, and Jessa seems to think Michelle gave birth nineteen times. Didn't she have to give birth to Jubilee? With two sets of twins that would be twenty babies delivered over 18 pregnancies. She also miscarried once, but that is not a delivery. Geez, I need a math degree.

Edited to add: I didn't mean for the second paragraph to go with this post. I was trying to get it into a new post. 

[Alachantal]

17 hours ago, FakePigtails said:

I know it's irritating (I'm a huge geography and travel nerd myself) but someone here pointed out that it may be a matter of viewers not knowing where Guatemala is and I would bet that's the case. It's amazing how little many Americans know about geography - I've had many a time of biting my tongue because of ridiculous questions about places I've gone, and I haven't gone anywhere *that* crazy.

I thought that was the reason as well. Americans for some reason seem to not know where a lot of places are. It's maddening! 

I have a friend who is an on the road trucker in the States, in his late 30s. I'm a trucker in Canada. He asked me the other day "which province do you live?" I said British Columbia  (he was happy he  knew they were called provinces). He then asks me "your American is really good for someone from Canada! Do Canadian provinces go British French British French?" I could not stop laughing. He also guessed the one French province (Quebec) to be Saskatchewan, then guessed Toronto as the province when I said no...

[Whoosh]

It is funny (in the sad way).  I was just talking about this with three generations of family educated in Massachusetts (known for very strong public schools in USA terms).  In another thread, people were talking about in what class and how US students learned about geography.  I almost responded with "we didn't". In talking to my niece over Christmas, this topic came up and I checked in with the whole famdamily.  It seems geography really isn't a subject at all in the MA public schools our family attended throughout the state over the course of over a half a century.  They might throw in bits of information in Social Studies or then again in a History class, but not much at all.  It is a clear hole in our education that I definitely notice in all three generations and quite frankly it is totally embarrassing.  Not sure how people manage to put up with some of this type of nonsense, really.  Anyway, if you wonder what some of the finest Boston public schools were teaching about Geography in the 70s and 80s, this is basically what I was taught (with the addition that if you head to the right, you will hit Europe).  Funny, but not really.  

[fraurosena]

Oh dear, is this really how the average American sees the world?

[Curious]

I was channel surfing right when this drek started and decided I'd give it a go.  I made it to the first commercial break.  I heard Kate Gosselin screeching and that did me in!  I immediately changed the channel.

I did learn that Derick doesn't speak Spanish very well yet.   If that had been a drinking game, we'd all be dead.  I think he said it 3-4 times just in the little bit I watched.

[lascuba]

I've always found Anna to be at Jill levels of unattractive but she does looks really good now.

The only way Jill will be doing anything midwifery related in Guatemala is either for fellow fundie expats or if she or TLC pay a clinic to let her attend a birth or two there to feature on the show. People poor enough that they'd consider Jill as a midwife likely already have their own versions of lay midwives with a ton more experience...they're not going to let some stupid gringa in their home to attend them unless, again, they get paid. No clinic would have her as they would have real medical professionals.

4 hours ago, nst said:

It was deeper than that.  They clearly had different opinions and she was trying to be sweet with her words, but looks and attitude were going a different way.  It was fascinating how he went on and on and how she went on an d on.  I think they like to pretend to be perfect.  But those two must have spirited fights and conversations.  And with the cameras away they can go at it - but with the camera there - I can only imagine how it went went discussing Spud's name.  This is only a preliminary discussion.  I have to re watch it again.  Because it was so fascinating 

Now I'm picturing them have John and Kate type arguments.

[DugFan]

A few observations:

1. Jessa's centerpiece on her table.  That's a votive holder made from a wine barrel!  I have one and have never seen one made from anything else.  Pretty edgy

2. Wow, I thought Ben was a naive gubber of a kid, but after last night, he's that  x10!

3. I thought it interesting that in the first two they just showed Michelle as part of the background.  Then at the very end we see her doing a TH and helping with the birth.  Is TLC trying to sneak her in to see if the audience will accept her again?  (If she's back in in, I'm definitely out.)

4. I know there's a lot of talk about Jill's midwifery, but last night watching her talk about getting excited to meet the Mom's and help, I could help but think "at least she's trying to help... can you imagine Michelle working so hard just to volunteer time to someone else?

[DigDugger]

Michelle's phone call to 911 was so creepy.  It was the high-pitched baby voice with a sing-song speech pattern; she sounded like she was ordering a pizza.  Maybe she was overcompensating trying to maintain her sweetness.  Or maybe she was making the call in front of the rest of the "birthing team", and she didn't want to alarm them.

[JenniferJuniper]

What was the point of the pizza scene with Bin and the Duggar males and Josiah's little "God bless us, every one!" prayer?  I was assuming they'd then go on to show Ben do something like drop a bowling ball on his foot, but nothing.  Seems like it should have been left on the cutting room floor with whatever else they filmed that night.

 

[DugFan]

Ok a few more thoughts:

1. The "adoption" family... the wife was wearing pants.  Who are these people?

2. WTF does Jill call her mother in law "Miss Cathy"?????  That's so weird.  I find it strange when I hear little kids do it (I grew up calling all of my friends' mothers and my teachers Mrs./Ms.

[slickcat79]

4 hours ago, accountingstar said:

How white southern Christian of this couple to not realize their Ugandan child wouldn't know English. #JillAndJessa

I'm glad someone else noticed this. The Napiers said they were surprised that Noelle(?) didn't know any English...really? She was little more than a toddler, most likely being raised in poverty away from her family, how is she going to learn English?

I think Jessa and Ben keep repeating the agency guideline about how they require any children in the home to be at least 9 months old because it's a ready-made excuse to always "have a heart" for adoption without ever going through with it. It only took 3 months after marriage for Jessa to get pregnant the first time, and if she has any semblance of her mother's fertility she'll be pregnant again before Spurgeon is 9 months old. For any other couple, this would be a reason to turn to birth control, but I can't see that from a Duggar. Maybe they'll go the child-collector route and find an agency with lower standards, but I really don't think Jessa wants a mega-family regardless of what she says.

[Hermen-uetics]

16 minutes ago, JenniferJuniper said:

What was the point of the pizza scene with Bin and the Duggar males and Josiah's little "God bless us, every one!" prayer?  I was assuming they'd then go on to show Ben do something like drop a bowling ball on his foot, but nothing.  Seems like it should have been left on the cutting room floor with whatever else they filmed that night.

 

I agree, it just makes me wonder how boring the footage was that was left on the cutting room floor!

[Drala]

Doesn't it seem a little weird to be talking about adoption when you're pregnant and about to deliver your first child?  And then to keep talking about it after you're told that the youngest child in the family has to be at least 9 months old?  

[DigDugger]

9 minutes ago, DugFan said:

2. WTF does Jill call her mother in law "Miss Cathy"?????  That's so weird.  I find it strange when I hear little kids do it (I grew up calling all of my friends' mothers and my teachers Mrs./Ms.

This is really common in the South, where it's considered a sign of respect while using the more familiar first name.  Usually you would use this naming convention for anyone from an older generation than yours.  It's also done with men, too.

[halcionne]

I'm watching now. I wonder if Jill knows that Manos Abiertas, the clinic where she nodded and smiled while "examining" a pregnant woman or two, was founded by Planned Parenthood. Oh noes!

http://www.asociacionmanosabiertas.org/en/about-us/history.html

This clinic provides comprehensive services, based simply on the sign outside the entrance that was shown onscreen, some of which are in direct oppostion to Jill's religious views (assuming her views are the same as her parents', which, of course they are). I paused the episode to transcribe and translate the sign outside the entrance:

SERVICES
prenatal appointments
control post natal -- I couldn't translate this. I find, as a native English speaker, that often words that look like they could be translated literally, shouldn't be. Do we have any Guatemalans who can explain this phrase?
vbac
birth preparation classes
routine gynecology (pap smears)
family planning
pediatrics
natural medicine -- another "obvious" translation that I may have gotten wrong

This looks like a good clinic that does good work, and who founded or funds them isn't important to me--the list of orgs they work with and appreciate includes some that have religious-sounding names (I didn't investigate them, so I could be wrong). I just think it's funny that TLC set up a "Jill practices midwifery in the mission field" segment at a clinic that is actively trying to improve women's health, lower birthrates, and give women more power over their lives when the Duggars are actively doing the opposite in the US. I'm guessing they chose this place because it was nearby; I would be floored if Jill had her pick of clinics to work with and intentionally chose one so progressive. 

[Mercer]

I give Jessa and Ben some credit for actually talking to an adoptive family before beginning the adoption process. That's unusually sensible and forward-looking for Duggars making plans about the future. I do hope that they will also talk to some more experienced adoptive parents, though, because there are a lot of issues that arise over time rather than right away, so talking exclusively to relatively new adoptive parents of young children won't give them a full picture by a long shot.

That said, everything else about the adoption stuff is concerning to me. The fact that they treat the nine month wait after having a biological baby as an obstacle makes me think they really have no idea what they're getting into with either biological parenting or adoption. Having a baby is life-changing and requires your full attention. Adopting a child is life-changing and requires your full attention. Adoption is not just a way to... double your child acquisition speed, or something. You need to bring a new child into an established and secure family and expect that family to be turned upside down even so. If Jessa and Ben can't see why starting an adoption nine months after giving birth is actually really soon, they have no idea what adoption entails. With Jessa supposedly having a long-term interest in adoption and them being serious enough to start pursuing it, she really should have some basic understanding of what it will require from their family emotionally.

The comments about Jessa wanting the orphanage children also really really worry me. In fairness, it's someone speaking for Jessa and may not reflect her real attitude, but if she's given her family reason to think that is a mindset she would have, that's a problem. Adoption isn't just going to the orphanage and picking the cutest one, or wanting to take all the kids home because you feel bad for them. Adoption is becoming a parent. It's not about collecting cute children or saving the poor orphans. It is becoming a father or mother for life, and none of the comments about adoption from the Duggars ever seem to take that very seriously.

[EmmieJ]

47 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I've always found Anna to be at Jill levels of unattractive but she does looks really good now.

The only way Jill will be doing anything midwifery related in Guatemala is either for fellow fundie expats or if she or TLC pay a clinic to let her attend a birth or two there to feature on the show. People poor enough that they'd consider Jill as a midwife likely already have their own versions of lay midwives with a ton more experience...they're not going to let some stupid gringa in their home to attend them unless, again, they get paid. No clinic would have her as they would have real medical professionals.

Now I'm picturing them have John and Kate type arguments.

Ha!  If that were the case, I would tune in to see that.  Imagine Jessa telling Bin, "you're breathing too loud!"  Or sitting on a white plastic lawn chair and hollering "Ben!  Ben!  Would you please parent your children!?"