Seewalds 47: Actions have Consequences; Sponsor Backlash Due to Jessa's Homophobia

[SassyPants]

9 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I think she did question but at a time when she was still a minor and couldn’t do anything with her questioning. Jill started as an adult when she had power to make changes. 

But then why would she go full tilt the opposite direction once she could make different choices? And worse, to actually further JB’s BS; basically put her children on a path that she herself, as a mere adolescent, found unpalatable and ridiculous? Why regress? 

[feministxtian]

I have medicaid and CHAMPVA. Between the 2 I have no out of pocket costs. Workman's comp is paying for my ankle. I have no shame relying on "public assistance". I do work, I do pay taxes, I have paid taxes, I sacrificed a spouse to the US Military's bullshit. I don't see why these fundies have such an issue. But then again I'm one of those liberal snowflakes who believes that being "pro-life" means things like universal healthcare, free and appropriate housing, food, clothing, education from pre-school to college. 

 

[GuineaPigCourtship]

@feministxtian GOOD! I'd rather subsidize someone's medical care, food, housing, child care, etc than another fighter jet or tank.

[Father Son Holy Goat]

On 8/19/2022 at 2:18 PM, SassyPants said:

But then why would she go full tilt the opposite direction once she could make different choices? And worse, to actually further JB’s BS; basically put her children on a path that she herself, as a mere adolescent, found unpalatable and ridiculous? Why regress? 

Because she was beaten down for questioning. 
 

Im basing my theory on my own life, I started questioning as a kid with no escape. I was further abused because of it thus needing far more therapy than I otherwise would have. It’s been deeply painful to question as an adult because I’m confronting trauma, my own internal resistance which is there to keep me safe from abuse due to questioning, the sunken cost fallacy of questioning now, not to mention the deeply painful abuse itself. 

[patsymae]

On 8/19/2022 at 2:18 PM, SassyPants said:

But then why would she go full tilt the opposite direction once she could make different choices? And worse, to actually further JB’s BS; basically put her children on a path that she herself, as a mere adolescent, found unpalatable and ridiculous? Why regress? 

Because children internalize abuse. And they need to believe their parents loved them. And they need to believe that they are good people. Ergo, they are good people because, not in spite, of what their parents did. You see it all the time in a less horrific way with people who say their parents hit them as kids and they grew up to be upstanding people, so hitting is obviously the way to go.

[Nikedagain?]

Jessa is hawking Home Chef. I am shooketh. 

[AussieKrissy]

9 hours ago, Nikedagain? said:

Jessa is hawking Home Chef. I am shooketh. 

bad thing, mad thing? good thing?

why are thou shooketh?

[Sabine]

On 8/20/2022 at 6:18 AM, SassyPants said:

But then why would she go full tilt the opposite direction once she could make different choices? And worse, to actually further JB’s BS; basically put her children on a path that she herself, as a mere adolescent, found unpalatable and ridiculous? Why regress? 

Because it takes a lot of time to finally come to understand / accept that ones parents might be total assholes. And the process of getting there is painful. 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Sabine
funny english.

[SassyPants]

3 hours ago, Sabine said:

Because it takes a lot of time to finally come to understand / accept that ones parents might be total assholes. And the process of getting there is painful. 

Well, she’s turning 30 in a few weeks, left and cleaved 8 years ago and has 4 kids to be a better role model for. Times a ticking!

[Queen Of Hearts]

9 hours ago, AussieKrissy said:

bad thing, mad thing? good thing?

why are thou shooketh?

I thought it was more sarcasm because of Jessa hawking something... again.

[AussieKrissy]

8 hours ago, Queen Of Hearts said:

I thought it was more sarcasm because of Jessa hawking something... again.

ahhhhh i get it now 

I thought it was something to do with the product of which I dont know anything about 

cheers 

[Sabine]

19 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Well, she’s turning 30 in a few weeks, left and cleaved 8 years ago and has 4 kids to be a better role model for. Times a ticking!

Some of us with parents like that are in our 50 / 60 and we are still fighting with acceptance and pain. Some never even go there, because of the pain. 

And fwiw, Michelle did say that Jessa was hardest to break. How many pieces do you think Jessa needs to glue together before she finds the girl that was broken again? 

Ditto for Janna. 

I can understand the want from people that these girls leave their conditioning behind. But frankly they can't really, not on their own  - they are too far in the brainwashing to actually believe that they could be happy on their own, and one who has got 4 kids, a dumbarse preacher for husband and no education........It takes years, decades to get that child abuse that these girls lived every day of their life until they married - some daddy approved dude - and started popping out babies, and so far most of the girls are not even able to admit that child abuse happened in their home. By daddy, by mommy and by dear brother. 

Jessa still has a long long way to go. Hopefully she will do better then her parents. 

Some of us with the same trauma never have children for that reason. 

[SassyPants]

8 hours ago, Sabine said:

Some of us with parents like that are in our 50 / 60 and we are still fighting with acceptance and pain. Some never even go there, because of the pain. 

And fwiw, Michelle did say that Jessa was hardest to break. How many pieces do you think Jessa needs to glue together before she finds the girl that was broken again? 

Ditto for Janna. 

I can understand the want from people that these girls leave their conditioning behind. But frankly they can't really, not on their own  - they are too far in the brainwashing to actually believe that they could be happy on their own, and one who has got 4 kids, a dumbarse preacher for husband and no education........It takes years, decades to get that child abuse that these girls lived every day of their life until they married - some daddy approved dude - and started popping out babies, and so far most of the girls are not even able to admit that child abuse happened in their home. By daddy, by mommy and by dear brother. 

Jessa still has a long long way to go. Hopefully she will do better then her parents. 

Some of us with the same trauma never have children for that reason. 

Thank you for presenting this perspective. In the case of the Duggars, I think the life partner chosen seems to really affect the ability to transition from being dictated thoughts, opinions, beliefs to being able to form healthy opinions, beliefs and life paths, and most importantly, to parent differently.  I do think its very interesting that the once opinionated and child labeled “wild” is yoked to a person whose beliefs and life style choices more closely align to the controlling JB, vs “sweet Jilly Muffin” who married a more conventionally conservative man who has seemingly exposed her to a more mainstream life style that clearly clashes with JB thoughts, opinions, beliefs.

I have trouble cutting slack to seemingly neurotypical adults who are raising their own children in the exact same dysfunction in which they, themselves, were raised. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

I have a hard time cutting Jessa slack because I just don’t like her. 
 

There are a lot of fundies who have personalities I just don’t like. Even if they weren’t fundie, I probably wouldn’t like them due to their personality. Jessa is one of those people. So is Lori, TAM, Lisa Metzger, Braggie, Jim Bob, Zoo, PP, and Jeremy V.

Edited September 15, 2022 by JermajestyDuggar

[JMO]

It was only Jana that was hard to break, I believe. I was surprised as Jana seemed a more likely one. Jill was the bestest of them all until she asked for money. 

[SassyPants]

23 minutes ago, JMO said:

It was only Jana that was hard to break, I believe. I was surprised as Jana seemed a more likely one. Jill was the bestest of them all until she asked for money. 

Money and the power to live her own life and make her own decisions. I’m surprised JB’s head didn’t blow clear off of his shoulders at that request!

[marmalade]

1 hour ago, SassyPants said:

Money and the power to live her own life and make her own decisions. I’m surprised JB’s head didn’t blow clear off of his shoulders at that request!

It was only the threat of a lawyer getting involved for the Dillards that got JB to pay them off. 

[Sabine]

9 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Thank you for presenting this perspective. In the case of the Duggars, I think the life partner chosen seems to really affect the ability to transition from being dictated thoughts, opinions, beliefs to being able to form healthy opinions, beliefs and life paths, and most importantly, to parent differently.  I do think its very interesting that the once opinionated and child labeled “wild” is yoked to a person whose beliefs and life style choices more closely align to the controlling JB, vs “sweet Jilly Muffin” who married a more conventionally conservative man who has seemingly exposed her to a more mainstream life style that clearly clashes with JB thoughts, opinions, beliefs.

I have trouble cutting slack to seemingly neurotypical adults who are raising their own children in the exact same dysfunction in which they, themselves, were raised. 

Because that dysfunction is the 'normal' to them. They really have no different frame of reference, and were told to fear people with a different mindset.

Both of my and my siblings abusers have died of old age. I am getting old. And i still struggle with relationship building because missing crucial years of bonding and learning how to relate to others and within family spend in state care, being uplifted several times from home for neglect, in foster care, mother care, father care, hospital care, until finally at seven i was put into state care. I still can't read people. I still am not sure when people joke and when people don't. I never had kids for fear of doing to them what was done to me and my siblings. My brother still sleeps in the living room with lights and tv on as he is still afraid of the dark. And us kids until the end wanted to be loved by our abusers who were our parents. We have no idea what these people did to their children to get the obedience they wanted. We have no idea. And Jessa and all the other kids just try to live their life, as best as they can, within their framework of understanding the world. And with luck, their children will be freer then they were. It already seems so with Jill. Cautiously optimistic for Joy/Austin and J/J. Jessa -  maybe she does not want to glue these million shards together, maybe the memory of breaking is to painful, and maybe the anger at being broken by ones parents is an anger that instills fear. 

Edited September 16, 2022 by Sabine
missing words.

[Jackie3]

9 hours ago, SassyPants said:

I have trouble cutting slack to seemingly neurotypical adults who are raising their own children in the exact same dysfunction in which they, themselves, were raised. 

They are trauma-bonded to their parents and cannot see the damage they did. This is true for NT and ND adults. Both can become trauma-bonded and live in denial.

[neuroticcat]

I think sometimes also it takes a developmental or life milestone to begin to start the process (if people want it at all). 

I know for me, I was able to admit vaguely things were "harsh" in my abusive family, but I couldn't name it beyond that until well into my 30s when my mental health spiraled & I could no longer pray away the emotions and all the spiritual hacks stopped working (part of why I get so angry at Misformama bullshit posts). Wasn't until my early 40s - even after loads of therapy that I even was able to name sexual harrassment/assault that had occurred. I mean, I was aware of the memories just had no categories to define them as abusive. If their life choices are *working* for them, there may be no reason to dig deep...yet.

Everyone's experience is different. For me, a HUGE catalyst was becoming a parent and realizing that, no, not all parents did X, Y, and Z and that I couldn't imagine doing that to my children. But, given my Christian background and sincere zeal, even then, I wasn't able to confront my parents b/c of "honor your parents" and "die to self" type teaching. And I wasn't raised fundie w/Gothard's abusive heirarchies and submission-always garbage. They have got *a lot* to reject before even being able to think about their parents critically or acknowledge that naming wrongs isn't dishonoring, etc. Every aspect of IBLP parenting is about controlling the child's will, training their emotions (and rejecting negative ones as "sin"), and submission - as well as villainizing agency, independence, and the secular world.

I think any progress the second gen - particularly the women - makes is hard won. I think more may come all in a rush or there may be things they're reckoning with privately. I know, for me, it was a few steps forward, then retreat back to fundamentalist security, then some more progress, etc. 

In this, I think social media is a huge help. At least there are people out there who have left the movements they were raised in - some reject the faith completely, some retain it, some in between - we Jessa could stumble across on instagram or find a relevant book or whatever. In that sense, it's much better than what Michelle had. (Yes, I know she chose it for herself, but, for instance what might have happened if she had laundry-room-meltdown and then discovered an ex-IBLP mom writing about the damaging teaching? Would that have made a difference? I don't know, but there's more information/support than there used to be, even than ten years ago when I had my basement-apartment-meltdown.

[JMO]

13 hours ago, JMO said:

It was only Jana that was hard to break, I believe. I was surprised as Jana seemed a more likely one. Jill was the bestest of them all until she asked for money. 

I meant Jessa, sorry for the typo. 

[JermajestyDuggar]

It seems like Jill was the people pleaser, Jinger was the follower, Jana was the strong willed one, and I wouldn’t be surprised if Jessa was also strong willed. But not as much as Jana. So it wasn’t commented on. 

[SassyPants]

Anyone ever wonder JB’s response to Michelle still having an active, copacetic relationship with the Dillards? I do wonder how that conversation went. No, I can’t do that today. I’m helping Jill with the boys. 

[Melissa1977]

Thank you so much to all former fundies for your comments. I understand better Jessa (and others) due your perspective.

[Travelfan]

1 hour ago, Melissa1977 said:

Thank you so much to all former fundies for your comments. I understand better Jessa (and others) due your perspective.

You also have to take into account the absolute belief that anyone straying will endure hellfire FOREVER!  This is an almost insurmountable hurdle to cross. Especially once you start having children. I always doubted if the Christianity thing was really true or not, and I lived everyday in terror of hell because of it (the belief is basically it doesn’t matter what kind of a person you are, going to hell comes completely down to if you fully believe in god/Jesus with your whole heart and mind) You can bet when I had kids I doubled down on the faith thing because I never wanted them to doubt and be afraid. I tried everything to instill nothing but absolute faith and belief in them. The thought of your precious child burning forever in never ending torture is a special kind of hell all itself!  I finally broke away a few years ago and I feel so free now!  I live a fear free life, I happily live day too day knowing someday I’ll just cease to exist!  I wish I would have figured this out 20 years earlier, but I’m just glad I’m where I’m at now!  Luckily we were never fundy level crazy, I went to public school and sent our kids as well.  We watched normal TV, movies, pop culture stuff and dressed normally. But still we had the whole never ever touch alcohol, never ever ever have sex before you get married super conservative thing going on. It’s good to be free!!!!  I hope the same for the Duggar kids, but I know how HARD it is to deconstruct all that!