Dillards 90: Degrees, Exams, Vacations and Vaccinations, Oh MY!

[HerNameIsBuffy]

1 hour ago, just_ordinary said:

I could be completely off, but I dare to say I don’t think I am reading the society I am living in so wrong. Especially because compared to all the people I know a bit better I am more involved in faith/religion/church than most.

I wasn't challenging you, I hope it didn't come off that way.  I was just genuinely curious as my experience is different.  

Excluding a fundy-lite relative, none of my close circle attends church of any kind nor do they read the bible.  No one is overtly religious in any sense, but when there is something medically going on with one of us (or job hunting, major life events) they will make a comment that they're keeping the person in their prayers.  I haven't prayed before meals or bedtime in decades, but I knee-jerk pray when I learn of someone I know who is hurting, whenever I see an ambulance or accident, when the weather is terrible I instinctively pray for people and animals stuck out in it, when I hear of an animal in distress, when I'm afraid.  I also knee-jerk prayers of thanks when something good happens, when an accident is avoided, a crisis averted.  

Several years ago my son had complications after surgery and last year when my sister was diagnosed with cancer I prayed continuously, like it was my job.  I didn't think my prayers would do anything but I did it reflexively and wouldn't have been able to stop myself had I tried.  

Speaking for myself I think there is a psychological component to even stronger than the spiritual for me.  Collateral benefits of praying is putting my fear and anxiety into words which helps me process it for myself.  It's a way of dealing with a sense of powerlessness to protect people and animals who are hurting and feeling like I'm doing something even when I don't believe intellectually that it helps.  Prayers of thanks for what I have keeps self-pity in check and reminds me to be grateful for the good things in my life rather than focus only on my failures.  Praying when I see an ambulance reminds me of a common humanity and that I do genuinely care about people who I don't know and will never meet.  

Many years ago my son was hit by a car whilst riding his skateboard.  I got a call from the paramedics that they were en route to the hospital with him and all they could tell me was that he was still breathing.  I went into some kind of fugue state on the way to the hospital which was an unending mantra of prayer which was absolutely to keep the panic at bay so I could function.  

And for me it's a way to assuage fear of God's wrath.  The niggling voice in my head that cannot be silenced that tells me if I don't pray for my sister and her cancer returns it will be my fault.  That if I don't pray for my loved on with depression I'm part of the problem.  That God must be appeased with my groveling lest he hurt the people I love most.  This is why I don't like him.  

And on a cynical note I hedge my bets.  I don't believe it will do any good, but what if I'm wrong?  

Just using myself as an example, but many people I know are like this.  The knee jerk please, thank you, and protection prayers are pretty common amongst otherwise not religious people IME.  

19 hours ago, EmCatlyn said:

Derick seems to be on the road to “liberal Christian” also, given that he has switched a lot of his focus from Biblical preaching to secular law.

He has never disavowed his very public statements not only bullying a trans-gender teen, saying they would not be okay if one of their children were gay, actively supporting Roy Moore's campaign acknowledging he knew nothing about the charges against him but he knew they needed a Republican in that seat, nor the "hilarious" video he posted where Israel was playing with blocks and Derick said they were helping Trump build the wall.

He helped campaign to get a sexual predator of minors elected in a state in which he doesn't reside.  

There is absolutely nothing liberal about him.  Plenty of fundy bigots work secular jobs, most of them don't follow IBLP rules for employment.

He moved on from biblical preaching because he and Jill are particularly bad at grifting.  

Edited February 24, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[HerNameIsBuffy]

44 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

For most people I am aware of, "praying at home" means a short silent prayer as they lay down to sleep, and maybe one similar when they wake up in the morning. There's nothing that anyone would ever notice, they just lie down in bed, close their eyes, and think a short prayer before drifting off to sleep. Even the ones who pray before eating, unless they are with a church group and do a group prayer, it's a quick, silent, bow the head for a moment and close the eyes, think "Lord bless this food Amen" or similar, and it's done. Possibly noticeable if you're looking right at them, but not obvious. Even with a church group, it's usually a short and quiet prayer so as not to draw attention or disturb anyone nearby. 

It's the crazy fundies and evangelicals who make big productions of praying. Pretty sure the Bible said to keep prayer private. 

Great point.  All my rambling prayer nonsense in my previous post is done completely silently in my own head, they're just thoughts.  

[just_ordinary]

Actually found a statista site to the prayer question. I don’t know what the group of people was questioned. It’s also from 2017. The question is inclusive of gods, so my guess it’s over all religions. 

10% daily (which isn’t surprising if they had Muslims in the group)

3% once a week

9% several times in a year

22% less than several times a year 

42% never

No worries. Even if you had challenged me, I wouldn’t mind. It’s never bad to have to go over your arguments and little challenge or heated argument can be very nice and beneficial. 
Your example is something I haven’t taken into account to be honest. Maybe because, I am sure people do it. I do it, but it’s more a social tradition reaction than genuinely faith based. More a “can’t hurt in case they were right all along” sentiment. People tend to revert back to the religion they are exposed too in those cases. So if you pray to a Christian god it’s more by chance than personal faith. 

Edited February 24, 2022 by just_ordinary

[Alisamer]

Just now, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Great point.  All my rambling prayer nonsense in my previous post is done completely silently in my own head, they're just thoughts.  

Same. I agree with your whole post above. If things are dire, sometimes prayer is a mantra, essentially. It's a reflexive reaction to stress and emergencies, for many people. I don't always pray before bed anymore, but if I'm stressed about something, praying silently about it helps, even if it's just by putting words to the issue. 

Do I believe prayer works? Hm. It's not like a wish that gets granted or not, IMO, but I think for a lot of people it works in the same way meditation works to calm their own minds. I also think that putting positive energy out into the universe is a good thing, and if that takes the form of prayer, then cool. God seems to answer some prayers and not others, so while I'll automatically pray asking for help or giving thanks, I never assume that's going to take care of things. God helps people who help themselves, IMO. 

I know some non-believers are irritated by people offering them prayers, and I'd think many fundies would be horrified by any other expression of support other than prayer to God - like someone offering to light a candle for them, or pray to a different god/goddess/entity/whatever.

I personally am cool with all of it. If I'm having a tough time, I'll take whatever positivity anyone wants to put out there. Say a prayer to whoever you follow, cast a spell, light a candle, float an offering down a river, make a wish on a dandelion, toss a coin in a fountain, whatever. I appreciate all of it! (And feel free to tell me about it so I can learn more!)

[fluffernutter]

I look at what I consider my weird praying ritual as more of a sending positive energy out into the universe for whomever or whatever I might be worried or concerned about. Like last night it was the people of Ukraine. I don't begin with addressing a deity, but just launch right in and end with Blessed Be, a habit I picked up when we were regularly attending UU. I think if nothing else, it is a time for me to think outside of my own self. This is going to sound terribly woo woo, but I do think we give off an energy, be it positive and loving or negative and angry. My hope is that all of our collective goodness can at least emit some good in the world. There! I finally figured my faith out! I belong to the church of Star Wars.  May the Force be with you all. 🤣 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

4 minutes ago, fluffernutter said:

I look at what I consider my weird praying ritual as more of a sending positive energy out into the universe for whomever or whatever I might be worried or concerned about. Like last night it was the people of Ukraine. I don't begin with addressing a deity, but just launch right in and end with Blessed Be, a habit I picked up when we were regularly attending UU. I think if nothing else, it is a time for me to think outside of my own self. This is going to sound terribly woo woo, but I do think we give off an energy, be it positive and loving or negative and angry. My hope is that all of our collective goodness can at least emit some good in the world. There! I finally figured my faith out! I belong to the church of Star Wars.  May the Force be with you all. 🤣 

I would join that church!

[nokidsmom]

35 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

He has never disavowed his very public statements not only bullying a trans-gender teen, saying they would not be okay if one of their children were gay, actively supporting Roy Moore's campaign acknowledging he knew nothing about the charges against him but he knew they needed a Republican in that seat, nor the "hilarious" video he posted where Israel was playing with blocks and Derick said they were helping Trump build the wall.

He helped campaign to get a sexual predator of minors elected in a state in which he doesn't reside.  

There is absolutely nothing liberal about him.  Plenty of fundy bigots work secular jobs, most of them don't follow IBLP rules for employment.

He moved on from biblical preaching because he and Jill are particularly bad at grifting.  

I agree with this about Derick.   The grifting attempts didn't work so it was back to law school and presumably, a real job.  Plus he found out the price of being in his in-law's dog and pony show which he was not up for so, again, back to a real job. 

While he seems to be very supportive of his wife and a good dad to his kids, he has never walked back any of his previous comments / stances, so yes, I think he still is "fundie" in his mindset.   Perhaps that will change but doesn't seem, at least outwardly, to be happening yet.  

[Alisamer]

9 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I would join that church!

Same! Like I still call myself Christian, but I kind of think of God more as a "higher power" than anything else. I figure he probably uses different names with different cultures, and everyone's understanding is different. I think belief as a collective can be powerful, and that putting love, kindness, and positivity into the world is more important than exactly how you do so, or what deity (or no deity at all) you address that to.

[feministxtian]

55 minutes ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

And for me it's a way to assuage fear of God's wrath.

That is not in the New Testament. Many of the NT verses about God's "wrath" were mistranslated to keep the little folks in line. My religion does not believe in that or eternal torture. I look at God as my Father who created me just because he thought the world needed one of me. I am created in His image and likeness. He deeply desires that all would turn to him but its not like he's waiting for you to fuck up so he can send you to hell (raised Catholic and with that idea). So, I see God as the loving Father I never really had. He loves me. He wants me to turn to him just like I'd turn to an earthly father (who was loving and stuff). So I did and do. 

Unlearning that wrath thing was hard. 

[Idlewild]

Derick and Jill have curated a bohemian/hippy image that has attracted interest for them, but they are still conservative Christians. It’s good that they are seeking qualified therapy, that they giving their children a chance at education and they have stopped supporting the Duggar brand and all its hypocrisy and lies.

However, Derick has never pushed back on his comments about Nate and Jeremiah, Jazz, and remember he tried to encourage gay people to attend his church via his Instagram account, when he knew there was a speaker addressing the ‘problem’ of homosexuality. Jill, when she got some criticism about her karma sutra lite,  asserted she firmly believed sex was for marriage between a man and a woman.

At the moment I imagine they make most of their income from paid partnerships and monetised YouTube - most of Jill’s large following have been with her since her Duggar days- they have to keep their base on board. 
Are they better than JB & M? Of course. Do they believe in true equality? Probably not.

[EmCatlyn]

1 hour ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

I wasn't challenging you, I hope it didn't come off that way.  I was just genuinely curious as my experience is different.  

Excluding a fundy-lite relative, none of my close circle attends church of any kind nor do they read the bible.  No one is overtly religious in any sense, but when there is something medically going on with one of us (or job hunting, major life events) they will make a comment that they're keeping the person in their prayers.  I haven't prayed before meals or bedtime in decades, but I knee-jerk pray when I learn of someone I know who is hurting, whenever I see an ambulance or accident, when the weather is terrible I instinctively pray for people and animals stuck out in it, when I hear of an animal in distress, when I'm afraid.  I also knee-jerk prayers of thanks when something good happens, when an accident is avoided, a crisis averted.  

Several years ago my son had complications after surgery and last year when my sister was diagnosed with cancer I prayed continuously, like it was my job.  I didn't think my prayers would do anything but I did it reflexively and wouldn't have been able to stop myself had I tried.  

Speaking for myself I think there is a psychological component to even stronger than the spiritual for me.  Collateral benefits of praying is putting my fear and anxiety into words which helps me process it for myself.  It's a way of dealing with a sense of powerlessness to protect people and animals who are hurting and feeling like I'm doing something even when I don't believe intellectually that it helps.  Prayers of thanks for what I have keeps self-pity in check and reminds me to be grateful for the good things in my life rather than focus only on my failures.  Praying when I see an ambulance reminds me of a common humanity and that I do genuinely care about people who I don't know and will never meet.  

Many years ago my son was hit by a car whilst riding his skateboard.  I got a call from the paramedics that they were en route to the hospital with him and all they could tell me was that he was still breathing.  I went into some kind of fugue state on the way to the hospital which was an unending mantra of prayer which was absolutely to keep the panic at bay so I could function.  

And for me it's a way to assuage fear of God's wrath.  The niggling voice in my head that cannot be silenced that tells me if I don't pray for my sister and her cancer returns it will be my fault.  That if I don't pray for my loved on with depression I'm part of the problem.  That God must be appeased with my groveling lest he hurt the people I love most.  This is why I don't like him.  

And on a cynical note I hedge my bets.  I don't believe it will do any good, but what if I'm wrong?  

Just using myself as an example, but many people I know are like this.  The knee jerk please, thank you, and protection prayers are pretty common amongst otherwise not religious people IME.  

He has never disavowed his very public statements not only bullying a trans-gender teen, saying they would not be okay if one of their children were gay, actively supporting Roy Moore's campaign acknowledging he knew nothing about the charges against him but he knew they needed a Republican in that seat, nor the "hilarious" video he posted where Israel was playing with blocks and Derick said they were helping Trump build the wall.

He helped campaign to get a sexual predator of minors elected in a state in which he doesn't reside.  

There is absolutely nothing liberal about him.  Plenty of fundy bigots work secular jobs, most of them don't follow IBLP rules for employment.

He moved on from biblical preaching because he and Jill are particularly bad at grifting.  

Briefly: My point about Derick was that he too is changing and that there is as much chance for him to end up a “liberal Christian” as there is for Jill.  I don’t think there is much chance for either, frankly.

As for the first part of your message, I agree that religion and some religious practices (like praying) satisfy an emotional/psychological need.  Prayer also can refocus anxiety (like taking deep breaths or meditation can — it’s a continuum).  The “spiritual” and the “emotional” intersect.

[patsymae]

58 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Same. I agree with your whole post above. If things are dire, sometimes prayer is a mantra, essentially. It's a reflexive reaction to stress and emergencies, for many people. I don't always pray before bed anymore, but if I'm stressed about something, praying silently about it helps, even if it's just by putting words to the issue. 

Do I believe prayer works? Hm. It's not like a wish that gets granted or not, IMO, but I think for a lot of people it works in the same way meditation works to calm their own minds. I also think that putting positive energy out into the universe is a good thing, and if that takes the form of prayer, then cool. God seems to answer some prayers and not others, so while I'll automatically pray asking for help or giving thanks, I never assume that's going to take care of things. God helps people who help themselves, IMO. 

I know some non-believers are irritated by people offering them prayers, and I'd think many fundies would be horrified by any other expression of support other than prayer to God - like someone offering to light a candle for them, or pray to a different god/goddess/entity/whatever.

I personally am cool with all of it. If I'm having a tough time, I'll take whatever positivity anyone wants to put out there. Say a prayer to whoever you follow, cast a spell, light a candle, float an offering down a river, make a wish on a dandelion, toss a coin in a fountain, whatever. I appreciate all of it! (And feel free to tell me about it so I can learn more!)

 

40 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Same! Like I still call myself Christian, but I kind of think of God more as a "higher power" than anything else. I figure he probably uses different names with different cultures, and everyone's understanding is different. I think belief as a collective can be powerful, and that putting love, kindness, and positivity into the world is more important than exactly how you do so, or what deity (or no deity at all) you address that to.

I attended a Hindu ceremony in a friend's home, and my friend was describing to me what the priest was doing, what was going on, etc. And one thing he said was, "It's all cultural. Everyone wants the same thing--to get closer to God--and the rest is just so different cultures can understand it. (Atheists need not reply, I'm not agreeing everyone wants God, just making a point.)

Hillel (perhaps apocryphal), when asked if he could recite the Torah while standing on one leg: Do not do to others that which is hateful if done to yourself. All the rest is commentary.

[Cam]

What if the public had never found out Josh molested five young girls? I fear that this could have continued if he went on to become a church elder and if it was reported, church leaders would be doing their best to keep it hidden, similar to the Catholic Church protecting priest pedophiliacs. Perhaps that kind of speculation is not permitted, so I will stop there.

 

[EmCatlyn]

41 minutes ago, Alisamer said:

Same! Like I still call myself Christian, but I kind of think of God more as a "higher power" than anything else. I figure he probably uses different names with different cultures, and everyone's understanding is different. I think belief as a collective can be powerful, and that putting love, kindness, and positivity into the world is more important than exactly how you do so, or what deity (or no deity at all) you address that to.

“God is one, but he is called by a thousand names.”  I have most often heard this attributed as a “Hindu saying,” but recently ran into a claim that it is “Native American.”  In any case, I believe it is true.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

53 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

That is not in the New Testament. Many of the NT verses about God's "wrath" were mistranslated to keep the little folks in line. My religion does not believe in that or eternal torture. I look at God as my Father who created me just because he thought the world needed one of me. I am created in His image and likeness. He deeply desires that all would turn to him but its not like he's waiting for you to fuck up so he can send you to hell (raised Catholic and with that idea). So, I see God as the loving Father I never really had. He loves me. He wants me to turn to him just like I'd turn to an earthly father (who was loving and stuff). So I did and do. 

Unlearning that wrath thing was hard. 

My mother had a similar mindset about God and it gave her a lot of peace.  She did not raise me with the fear of hell, she believed only God could judge one's heart and there are many paths to Heaven...and our job was to be compassionate and loving to each other.  I will say IMO her genuine belief system and how she lived it was quite healthy unlike others in her churches (devout Catholic turned fundy-lite.) 

She had a way of focusing on only the love and positivity, and ignoring the toxic aspects of others in her faith.  She was good at ignoring many evil and unpleasant things, in this area it worked for her.  In other areas of life being able to gold medal in denial was a very dangerous trait.

I am very openly ignorant on all matters biblical, but I know enough to know you're correct in that mistranslations and people using it for their own agenda to maintain control has been a problem through the ages.  

I have a lot of respect for what you've expressed here.  If I could see it that way I would, because I could really use the inner peace that seems to come with that way of thinking.  I posted somewhere recently how much I still miss my own dad, even though he's been gone more than half of my life.  Because for all his faults he was love and protection to me.  And for all my faults I knew nothing mattered to him more than my happiness and well being.  If I could feel that from God I truly think I wouldn't feel so lost.  I envy the peace of mind that must give you.

But you and I see God very differently.  If he exists I truly hope your version is right, because if he is a loving father he would love me enough to forgive me for not seeing it in this lifetime.  

I envy the peace of mind faith brings to people like you and my late mother.  

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[patsymae]

Back when reality TV was PBS series, I watched one about a Benedictine monastery (near where I grew up and we used to go to their store to get missals and stuff, so I watched it.) 6 parts, chronological, beginning with someone just entering. It ended with the abbot, who was I believe literally on his deathbed--he looked cadaverous and probably died 2 minutes after they stopped shooting.

They asked him if he was looking forward to meeting God, and he said he had no idea if there is a God. I'm a person and God is by definition unknowable. I hope there is a God, and I lived my life assuming there is, but I can't possibly KNOW there is a God.

Perhaps others raised in the sort of Catholicism I was can identify with how liberating that was for me. If he can say he doesn't know if there is a God, then I'm OK.

[HerNameIsBuffy]

9 minutes ago, Cam said:

What if the public had never found out Josh molested five young girls? I fear that this could have continued if he went on to become a church elder and if it was reported, church leaders would be doing their best to keep it hidden, similar to the Catholic Church protecting priest pedophiliacs. Perhaps that kind of speculation is not permitted, so I will stop there.

 

I agree they'd have done their best to keep it hidden.  He still would have been caught for the CSAM though, and there would be no wiggling out of that.  It doesn't matter how many enablers you have when the Feds traced the files and put you at the keyboard during the downloads.

It's a fact that statistically CSA offenders when caught have more victims than those which have come forward.  What is not permitted is speculation about specific unknown victims and that is for the benefit of those innocent people, not Josh.  The larger topic of hiding abuse in religious communities and the pervasiveness of CSA in cults, especially those steeped in purity culture, is a very important discussion and certainly within the rules.  

Just like I don't believe for one second that this was his first time downloading CSAM, you don't stumble upon those sites by accident.  But speculating on the specifics with no valid source is just fanfic and muddies the waters for factual information.

 

Edited February 24, 2022 by HerNameIsBuffy

[patsymae]

8 minutes ago, Cam said:

What if the public had never found out Josh molested five young girls? I fear that this could have continued if he went on to become a church elder and if it was reported, church leaders would be doing their best to keep it hidden, similar to the Catholic Church protecting priest pedophiliacs. Perhaps that kind of speculation is not permitted, so I will stop there.

 

Of course it would have continued. They all do everything they can to protect their dirty little secrets. It's only when the public finds out that they get rid of anybody, and even then the system doesn't change, just the actors.

[imokit]

3 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

Just like I don't believe for one second that this was his first time downloading CSAM, you don't stumble upon those sites by accident.  But speculating on the specifics with no valid source is just fanfic and muddies the waters for factual information.

I agree completely.

You don't get to the files Josh downloaded without contacts or knowing how to get there.  They aren't the first thing you'll find on the dark web.  Even if you find the files, they aren't handed out easily, the people handing them out want assurances that they aren't giving them to law enforcement.

Likewise a used car dealer (ie not someone obsessed with tech or working in the computer field) does not get interested in the darkweb without intending to use it for something dodgy.

What Josh did needed knowledge and skill.  It wasn't just a random impulse.  He knew what he was doing.

He's convicted for what they can prove went on to his computer when they can prove he was in front of the computer and when they were watching.  There is almost certainly a lot of other stuff which they can't prove he looked at or downloaded and therefore wouldn't have been mentioned in legal documents.

 

[Father Son Holy Goat]

3 hours ago, Idlewild said:

Jill, when she got some criticism about her karma sutra lite,  asserted she firmly believed sex was for marriage between a man and a woman.

I’m going to need to know more about Jill’s karma sutra lite.

[Idlewild]

33 minutes ago, Father Son Holy Goat said:

I’m going to need to know more about Jill’s karma sutra lite.

A few years ago Jill partnered with ‘dating divas’ app which had ideas to improve married sex life.

she posted some photos of her anniversary trip which had a copy of the Kama sutra by her bed. After some criticism she posted this

 

[HerNameIsBuffy]

5 minutes ago, Idlewild said:

A few years ago Jill partnered with ‘dating divas’ app which had ideas to improve married sex life.

she posted some photos of her anniversary trip which had a copy of the Kama sutra by her bed. After some criticism she posted this

 

She kills me.  Does she think marriage between a man and woman needs to be promoted?  Like we've never heard of such a pairing before and she wants to normalize it in society?

Why is loving who you love and letting other consenting adults do the same such a radical concept for these people?  

[Idlewild]

@HerNameIsBuffy I’m not sure she gave it that much thought - she was sent a load of free stuff by a paid partner and Duggars love free stuff. I doubt she had any idea what the Kama sutra is and she added that comment when people started to question why she would promote something that had its origins in non Christian belief. I expect she googled it and then doubled down on the ‘biblical marriage ‘ stuff.

 

[onekidanddone]

There has been much focus on what Josh downloaded, but had there been an mention of from where or from whom?

Was the CSAM just sitting there free for the takin? Someone had to have provided Josh access, so can it be traced? I thought Josh might have ratted out the person who he got it from. 

[EmCatlyn]

4 hours ago, HerNameIsBuffy said:

She kills me.  Does she think marriage between a man and woman needs to be promoted?  Like we've never heard of such a pairing before and she wants to normalize it in society?

Why is loving who you love and letting other consenting adults do the same such a radical concept for these people?  

I suspect she meant “endorse” not “promote.”  (The SOTDRT did not promote a wide vocabulary.)

As for “loving who you love and letting other consenting adults do the same,” I suspect that her issue is with sexual practices, not with whom you love.  

She seems to be saying that she and Derick are only interested in the parts of the Kama Sutra that can be applied to heterosexual, monogamous relations within marriage.  She definitely has a long way to go in her views of sexuality as it applies to others but at least we know that she and Derick have enjoyed more than the missionary position.  😉