Mills Family 6: Livestreaming Dinner Because That Is Totally Normal

[can'tstopwatching]

12 hours ago, formergothardite said:

That is sexist bullshit and there are very big issues with Judge Judy pushing the narrative that a man should never ask a woman for money. 

The problem isn't that Tom is taking money from women. If these women want to toss money at Tom that is their right. It is hypocritical that he pushed patriarchal ideas, but in the end, the real issue is the exploitation of children. Tom and Andrea exploited their children for fame and money, and these women support it emotionally and financially. 

If innocent children weren't involved here then there really wouldn't be a huge issue with these women paying Tom to pretend to have a relationship with them. They all seem to be consenting adults, and whatever floats their boat. But children are involved, and that makes this all icky. Andrea was icky, Tom is icky and the women who supported both of them are icky. 

But it isn't an issue that Tom takes money from women, that doesn't make him less than of a man. 

 

The other layer that I see to it which makes it that much worse is the fact that Tom (and Andrea) prides their family on being so self-sustaining. Home business, home church, homeschool, etc. He doesn't want to even accept the government benefits that he qualifies for because he doesn't believe in accepting that kind of help when he doesn't need to. Didn't used to want to monetize the channel to prove to people that that wasn't what it was about and they didn't need the money.

Now he is happy to receive gifts and money galore from women who feel like they're a part of his family while he makes it clear that he doesn't give a shit about them and thanks them in the same condescending voice that he uses toward Andrea's grandma like he's speaking to a small child. Happy to accept money from the youtube channel that his child actor children earn for him without any choice in the matter. But I'm sure he still would consider their family self-sufficient, he even thinks he is doing the right thing by ALLOWING people to continue to donate to him so that they feel good and like they are helping someone. He's such a freaking useless hypocrite.

[formergothardite]

8 hours ago, Itsjustme said:

 This just happens to be a man we are speaking about here, taking advantage of women.   I'm speaking about a man taking advantage of women. I told people before I have a hard time articulating becasue of my stroke and it's exhausting for me to have to explain myself becasue I can"t get my thoughts out right. I'm sorry I have a brain deficit, I do the best I can.  

I understand that you have difficulty explaining your thoughts which is why I asked for clarification. What you wrote was extremely offensive and not something tolerated here at FJ, which is why I was asking for clarification.

I don't think we can put out a blanket statement that Tom is taking advantage of women. Women have agency and it is wrong to take that away from them even if we don't agree with the decisions they are making. It is falling into sexism and patriarchy to automatically assume that a man is taking advantage of women when it comes to Tom and his adoring fans.  This isn't a Razing Ruth situation, everything we see, they see. They watch his videos, they read here, some even have joined and post, so they are making informed decisions, not really being taken advantage of.  

Tom is for sure taking advantage of the situation, but in the end, these woman are making a choice. They have decided to become active participants in the exploitation of children and they all seem to be adults and need to be treated as such.. That means that we don't paint them as hapless victims, we hold them responsible for their decisions and don't make excuses for them. 

1 hour ago, can'tstopwatching said:

The other layer that I see to it which makes it that much worse is the fact that Tom (and Andrea) prides their family on being so self-sustaining. Home business, home church, homeschool, etc. He doesn't want to even accept the government benefits that he qualifies for because he doesn't believe in accepting that kind of help when he doesn't need to. Didn't used to want to monetize the channel to prove to people that that wasn't what it was about and they didn't need the money.

Tom for sure is a flaming hypocrite, but my point was that there is nothing inherently wrong with a man accepting money from a woman. Sure it is hypocritical of him, but morally wrong based only on the fact that he is a man and they are women? Nah. It is wrong because he is selling his children's lives, it doesn't really matter if the money comes from men or women. 

It is very hypocritical that he is fine taking money from women when he and Andrea never seemed to want their daughters to grow up and be able to have careers. 

 

[Petronella]

9 hours ago, Itsjustme said:

 This just happens to be a man we are speaking about here, taking advantage of women.   I'm speaking about a man taking advantage of women. I told people before I have a hard time articulating becasue of my stroke and it's exhausting for me to have to explain myself becasue I can"t get my thoughts out right. I'm sorry I have a brain deficit, I do the best I can.  

That sounds very frustrating. Wishing you well.

I think the confusion comes from you saying emphatically that it’s wrong for “a man” to take money from “a woman”. That’s obviously a sexist statement in that it treats human responsibilities (that are not genitalia-related) according to people’s sex. I can’t figure out whether you’re insisting that you really mean “able adult humans” shouldn’t shirk their responsibilities and only said “man” because in this case you’re referring to Tom, or if you believe in strict gender roles where the man must contribute specifically money and should feel ashamed of women’s financial contributions. If the latter, yes, that is sexist. You’re allowed to hold sexist beliefs, but own it.

Anyway, in my opinion Tom should absolutely feel ashamed, not because he’s a man, but because he himself is not doing anything to better his situation himself or to use the gifts he does get wisely. And it’s creepy that the givers seem to get some kind of emotional-affair vibe out of these interactions, which would be creepy whether they were women or men. Maybe that’s what you were calling attention to, with the emphasis on gender? It certainly is a heterosexual and inappropriate lovefest over there.

Just trying to understand each other better ? 

[formergothardite]

8 minutes ago, Petronella said:

nd it’s creepy that the givers seem to get some kind of emotional-affair vibe out of these interactions, which would be creepy whether they were women or men.

It does seem like there is some sort of a creepy emotional attachment type thing going on with his followers. I cannot for the life of me understand why they have latched on to Tom, but apparently he does have some appeal to certain people. There are women who are obviously turned on by him(I'll provide the brain bleach ), and are getting something out of this situation. And it is why they basically pay him for this disturbing relationship. 

This whole thing is just so weird and has always been. Even with Andrea the followers seemed to get overly attached to her. 

[PotsPansPatriarchy]

In other news, Tom has posted nothing since Thurs.

Anyone wanna wager a bet that Rachel made a new catfish profile and Tom thinks he’s talking to a new “girl”?

[Escadora]

2 hours ago, formergothardite said:

This whole thing is just so weird and has always been. Even with Andrea the followers seemed to get overly attached to her. 

Overly attached and just plain weird is right, and I truly hope you continue to point that out if people start to become too sympathetic towards Tom and his leghumpers.

 In hindsight, there is absolutely no excuse for my continuing to watch Andrea's channel during the couple of years that I did (it wasn't monetised at the time, but I'm sure my views contributed to an algorithm that boosted her popularity), and I now find it totally ridiculous that I was as upset as I was when she was dying. Although it hurts to admit, I overlooked some pretty obvious child neglect and abuse when I watched Andrea's channel, and there's just no good reason for me to have been so wilfully ignorant or uncaring. I can't explain the allure her channel had for me, and even if I could it doesn't matter because I should have known and been better. 

All that to say, I personally think the female viewers who stick around for Tom are either genuinely, misguidedly trying to help him, are attracted to him for some reason that I can't even begin to comprehend, or they're lonely, bored, and emotionally fragile women, some of whom are so desperate for company or recognition or family that they're willing to spend their money and time chasing the delusion that youtube in any way is a substitute for seeking those things out in more productive ways.

Most importantly, it's key to remember that although Tom is very obviously a manupulative man that these women are more than old and experienced enough to be able to be held accountable for their continued support of his neglect of his children. It hurt a lot to come to the realisation that i wasted 2 years of a couple of hours each week (it adds up so fast, you guys, so fast) getting attached to the illusion of what I had interpreted as a loving, if sometimes very weird family, but I got over it and now spend my free time happily not listening to people who support child molesters, Trump, anti-vaxx, conspiracy wingnut, and medically negligent bullshit. 

Truly, I'm disgusted with myself that I ignored and justified Andrea's behaviours and beliefs for as long as I did, and I'm glad to have gotten my perspective challenged on here by people who have their heads on right. 

I hope FJ keeps on holding Tom accountable for his actions (of course, only as much as people have the energy and patience for). Even if it can't stop him, maybe reading here will snap some of his followers out of the delusion that they mean anything to him besides what they can do for his wallet.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Escadora

[Itsjustme]

16 hours ago, formergothardite said:

The same can be said for women, correct?

I was a stay at home mom for a long time and just recently went back to work part time. Does it make me not a real women because I accepted money from a man and didn't support myself? 

One of my BIL only works part time and takes care of the kids, does it make it less of a man because he isn't self supporting? 

You say this isn't sexist, but I really don't understand what you mean unless you believe both men and women should be fully self supporting and never take money from anyone. 

And not everyone needs to believe the same thing, but the belief that real men don't let a woman help them out financially is patriarchal bullshit that needs to be done away with and it isn't any better than what Tom believes. 

But if that isn't what you believe, I'm interested in understanding what you are saying. I know there can be misunderstandings very easily on the internet. 

Right yes! Why are people badgering a person who is disabled???? I put quotations around BORROWING meaning in the context of taking wrongly from a person, Man woman or anyone. 

 

In this sebtence I put : 

lol...I'm thinking of a Judge Judy episode where she told this women whose boyfriend kept "borrowing" money from her,

 

I don't understand why it's so important to gang up on someone when you can just explain things kindly. I'm so sick over this I've cried and thrown up.  But you keep going on and on about it. Enough already before I have another stroke, please!

 

[formergothardite]

1 hour ago, Escadora said:

I now find it totally ridiculous that I was as upset as I was when she was dying.

I don't think it is ridiculous to be upset that she died. It is heartbreaking that she died so young and left children. She was a bad person, but still, it is sad that her life ended like that. 

1 hour ago, Escadora said:

Most importantly, it's key to remember that although Tom is very obviously a manupulative man that these women are more than old and experienced enough to be able to be held accountable for their continued support of his neglect of his children.

Exactly. He and Andrea are both very manipulative people, but these women, especially since so many seem to read here, are old enough to figure out what is going on. I can see the pull Andrea had because she did know how to put on a good show, Tom though it a whole other story. He lets the crazy child neglect hang out loud and proud. I do not get why these women adore him, but we do need to treat them like adults. They are responsible for their actions.

1 hour ago, Escadora said:

I hope FJ keeps on holding Tom accountable for his actions (of course, only as much as people have the energy and patience for). Even if it can't stop him, maybe reading here will snap some of his followers out of the delusion that they mean anything to him besides what they can do for his wallet.

I sure hope so. I hope that since people are obviously reading here they might  start thinking. I do think it is telling that we don't have any of their supporters drop by anymore. They may have joined here but they seem to understand that defending Tom is almost impossible. Maybe that will be the stepping stone to helping them see that the way Tom behaves isn't okay. 

 

[Gussie]

I have been lurking and no doubt there is a ton of backlash from the times I used to be here  and reamed out gotherdite, for being such a bully.  But I have been seething about some of this stuff for too long.  

Tom Mills IS scummy for fishing for money from the women who watch his youtube videos.  First of all, I would say MANY of them are not particularly bright.  And as such,they are undoubtedly not finding it easy to earn money.  So he is taking money from  people who are not exactly swimming in dough.  

Yes, there is a difference between a man accepting money from a woman, vs the other way around. On average, in the US, women still earn only 70 cents for every dollar a man earns.  In fact in this gig economy, the disparity ahs actually INCREASED, so the average woman is already at a disadvantage.  That might not be true for women in the professions, or who is simply fortunate enough to have a good-paying job.  But we are speaking here of averages. And the average Mills Family youtube fan  is not an influencer, or someone who pulls in six figure salaries.  So Tom Mills, who has the advantage of being male in this society and in being perfectly able to earn money if he chooses to do it, prefers instead to make treacly smarmy videos in which he manipulates people to fork over cash.  Furthermore, Tom owes his business  to the women in his town who have helped him.  If you pay attention to his videos, you will know that the nurse, for example, who brought him and Andrea the Rh factor injections following their children's births, actually got him his biggest and best clients, and if not for her, he would not have a business.  This same woman paid for those injections OUT OF HER OWN POCKET, and to my knowledge, even with GFM  cash, he has not paid her back.  This is the same nurse who tried to make it possible for Andrea to die at home, but who was stopped in facilitating that by a higher up at that hospice facility she died at.  Tom is despicable.  

Meanwhile, that asinine excuse for a human being,  spends five nights a week doing fantasy games  or bible study.  The most valid criticism here of Tom Mills is that he is an insufferable narcissist. 

The ridiculous over-the-top criticisms of  Andrea Mills here (yes, Gothardite, I know this will trigger YOU) are just that. Exagerated.  Warranted?  Yes, to some extent.  But she was not evil and those children WERE better off with her here, than without her.  You can disagree all you like with her dietary choices and lack of dental care, but their basic physical needs were met while she was alive.  They had schedules, clean clothes, fairly healthy food, fresh produce, love.  Not so now.  

As long as I am putting this all out there, let me just add some points that were getting me pissed a few days ago. 

Regarding genetics and genetic testing: Tom and Andrea Mills each put mixes of 1/2 their genetic input into their children.  The girls are at risk in someday soon having breast tissue that will be hormonally influenced.  But their sons too carry the genetic information that Andrea imparted to all her children.  That means that genes they (her sons) carry but possibly will not express, like the breast cancer gene, should be checked in them as well, because their own female children will possibly be at risk of breast cancer as much as Andrea was.

And as to her risky behavior.  I personally believe the scariest thing she did was to apply those ridiculous progesterone creams to herself at SIX TIMES THE RECOMMENDED DOSAGE for years.  She started this when she was trying to get pregnant with Hannah and presumably kept it up as she was pregnant when she died.  Never made sense to me, because if you can't maintain a pregnancy any more is that not "God's will"?   The literature is replete with cancers that are progesterone sensitive. Andrea said she had a cousin who recommended the progesterone, and I hope that cousin is consumed with guilt.  Because with or without the BrCA gene, 6 times the recommended dosage of progesterone is likely to be highly carcinogenic. If you search the literature for cancers likely to be caused by or exacerbated by high doses of progesterone, two of the  most common ones are cholangiocarcinoma and breast cancer. Cholangiocarcinoma is a cancer that is highly aggressive and begins as a cancer of the duct cells connecting the gall bladder to the liver and the digestive tract. It is highly aggressive and has a 3% 5-year survival rate.  And of course, breast cancer.  Andrea Mills may have died of either of these cancers, but I believe she initiated, or exacerbated an initiating event, with these insane progesterone doses.  

I was tempted to write the woman who ran the website that discussed this progesterone BS, but she died of cancer years before Andrea started buying these creams.  A fact Andrea conveniently chose not to mention.  

This is an excellent forum in that there is insight here into Tom Mills' toxic narcissism, and that is lacking in most other "gossip" forums.  But there are people here who are domineering and dominant posters and who bully others and it is just wrong. So most of the time I retreat and say nothing.  But when it comes to this false feminism, staunchly upholding identical treatment of women and men when it comes to things like  salaries and access to money, I cannot remain silent.  Gothardite, you are wrong to  extrapolate assignment of worth to a man or woman based on whether or not they depend  on another for their income.  I know you are taking the politically correct stance that it "should be the same, whether mal or female" but that is ONLY true if all other things are equal. Here is how to quickly see the myriad ways in which the differences our hierarchical society has in stacking the deck for  males.  Look at any upper tier career:  highest levels of academia, or of finance, or  publishing, or manufacturing, or shipping. Or even the professional and managerial class.  Real estate brokers do not need to be geniuses or particularly well-educated.  But if they are successful, almost all of them are male, in an industry dominated by women.   At the lower levels, there is beginning to be parity.  But the parity in  bluecollar jobs comes with the cost of most of the single parent households in this country falling  into the "headed by women earning less than $50K/year" category.  So it is all a wash.  Men, once again on average, simply do better than women. And therefore men capable of doing better ought to have the decency to recognize when he is being a narcissistic selfish jerk who ought to fix more computers on the nights he WANTS to play Magic the gathering, or Naritu or whatever the hell those games are called. 
 

When my brain is fried and I need something mindless to read, do love coming here. But sometimes, y'all do seem to pull this BS (and I am irritated only by the stuff that is important like genetic testing and cancer and whether or not  women have achieved equality) right out of your asses.  

And by the way, I used to enjoy Andrea Mills' videos. They were informative and taught me organizational schemes, which I appreciated.  

But I can't stand seeing Tom Mills anymore. H just gets worse and worse as time goes on. I stopped watching them months ago. The world is exploding and I do NOT think Tom Mills and his kids are going to come out ok at the end of this.  But in the meantime, I am hoping we can all accept the humbling being forced upon us.  

[mollysmom]

2 hours ago, Itsjustme said:

I don't understand why it's so important to gang up on someone when you can just explain things kindly. I'm so sick over this I've cried and thrown up.  But you keep going on and on about it. Enough already before I have another stroke, please!

 

 

Yup. There is no reason for that. Unfortunately that is what certain members do & it pisses me the fuck off. Hugs from me to you. I understood exactly what you were trying to say & I'm not sure what the problem is either. 

1 hour ago, Gussie said:

 But there are people here who are domineering and dominant posters and who bully others and it is just wrong. 

 

Exactly. 

[Escadora]

@Gussie  I really, really and truly hope you'll take this not as a reaming or a rebuke (because I'm a very casual member with no clout or authority and also just because I don't mean it to be one, truly), but I'd just like to offer these as a reminder of a couple of things Andrea did and allowed that render her an extremely negligent and even abusive parent: 

• Andrea allowed her stepfather to be very touchy-feely and physically affectionate with her young daughters and sons despite knowing and understanding that he is a convicted sex offender. There is no excuse for that. I am not asserting that he has behaved inappropriately with her children, just that it is an irresponsible thing to allow.
• Andrea pushed for the family to stay in the same irresponsibly small and otherwise unfinished and inappropriate for their needs house despite having the money to move to one more suitable.
• Andrea deliberately took every measure she could (within what was acceptable within her worldview) to become and stay pregnant as many times as possible despite admitting that they already had a lot of children and that Tom wasn't perhaps quite as willing as she was. Yes, this is an issue that Tom had equal responsibility in, but I believe Andrea was addicted to having children, and Tom wasn't going to say no to sex, because he assumed he'd never have to bear the weight of his parental responsibilities and actually, y'know, be a parent.
• Andrea had her babies sleeping in a flimsy moses basket on top of a high dresser in her bedroom. I don't think I need to explain the danger there.
• When Thomas was bitten by a dog, Andrea 'treated' it with herbs and tinctures rather than pursuing actual medical care for her son. I don't know if they eventually did seek medical care for him, as I was no longer watching at this point, and if they did I welcome correction.
• Andrea hid several abuses going on in her house from her youtube audience. One that comes to mind is of their dog, Knuckles, who suffered from a skin condition that - rather than getting it checked at the vet and healed with proper, medical grade treatment - made herbal salves (that did not work, it must be said, because if they had then I might have not mentioned this point at all) for him. She also allowed the children to treat him roughly, with one particular instance of Solomon pushing and shoving Knuckles for being in his way during a homeschool vlog sticking out very clearly in my mind. It was the one and only time I was ever tempted to comment on a video she posted. 
• Andrea neglected her children to the point where Asher stepped in to become "Claudia's favourite person" (when she was a baby, as he took care of her diapers, carried her around, and fed her when Andrea was busy filming), and now I can only assume that the same happened with Hannah too. Bear in mind, please, that Asher was barely 12 when he was already taking on this paternal role in Claudia's life.
• Andrea denied the children access to an adequate curriculum. Perhaps this is my hill to die on, but the education of children is so important, and to have them solely learning from ACE materials and whatever it was that they could find in the library is not the optimal educational experience she could have given them. I agreed with her when she said that not all children can be excellent super bright stars, but she should have facilitated giving them the opportunities to experience their interests, rather than assigning them the careers she wanted them to do herself and only entertaining that.
• Andrea fed the children an extremely unhealthy diet. I agree with you, there was fresh produce and a lot of healthier choices when Andrea was alive. Her meal card system - I actually thought - was a fantastic way of introducing variety and choice into her children's diets. But, that doesn't change the fact that she did buy them a lot of junk food, and did encourage their snacking on sugary snacks, going as far as to bake sugar loaded cookies and treats instead of opting for cheap fruits and vegetables when money was tighter. I came from the same type of food-as-reward type of household and still struggle with my eating and weight today, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of her children have the same hurdle to overcome in their adult lives.

There are more examples, I'm sure. These are the few that stick out in my mind that I can remember, because it's been a long whole now since I watched their vlogs (but, as I have hinted at before, I would watch the homeschool vlog and recipe videos and special occasions videos every week for around two and a bit years, so I could probably think of more if I tried). I'm not some bullshitter who only watched the worst videos and formed my opinion on them (I doubt anyone who comments here is), I really liked the family (well, barring Tom), for a long while.  I don't think Andrea was necessarily evil, but she believed evil things and promoted evil things.

Andrea was just as bad as Tom. Tom is just far worse - or simply not interested - in hiding the crazy. There is no doubt in my mind that Andrea loved her kids and adored her husband, but that's not enough to temper her negligence, abuse, and shitty parenting, and she was not worthy of the pass I gave her back then because I liked her soothing voice, recipe videos, and organisational tips any more than Tom is now from all of his leghumping wannabe stream-wives.

Again, I truly and honestly hope that you did not see this post as a hand-slap or as anything intending meanness towards you. I just feel as though it's my responsibility, now, to remind lurkers or potential fans of the Mills family, what it is that they're truly supporting, the same things that I myself overlooked because it was easier to reconcile.

(I will say, I agree that there are extremely pushy and nasty people on FJ. I don't think we're in agreement about who they are, but board culture a little while back tended towards the downright toxic - which I myself contributed to, to my discredit - at times, and I took a big step back in the hopes of being better myself.)

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Escadora
i forgot to say something

[Olivia Marie]

Studly is mia, again.    The other 3-4 times he went missing he was in heat, trying to reel in his next Mrs. Slave.    Possibly he is visiting every Quik Shop within 50 miles to buy ramen noodles, dill pickle Pringles,  50 gallons of distilled water, 175 lbs of flour, gummie bears, Skittles, pizza Lunchables, his favorite root beer, Sara Lee white bread, chips, three oranges, two bananas.  I’m starving just thinking about it.   And, shopping from the kid’s candy lists.   Their hard earned money for their long hours of labor, and for punching in/out on their mandatory time cards.  

It pisses me off that he HOARDS distilled water......his own words - “I hoard distilled water.”   Bastard!   When his identical mental twin, Andrea, was still around, she thought it was just adorable that he had to have his special life giving water.   Crazy loon.    I use distilled water in my cpap.  Many others do as well, along with other medical equipment.  After almost four weeks of on-line searching, I was able to finally nab ONE gallon of distilled water.   Meanwhile, that jack-off has his basement full of DW.    Drink out of the tap, jerk.   That’s what the kids do.    

[Pleiades_06]

1 hour ago, Escadora said:

@Gussie  I really, really and truly hope you'll take this not as a reaming or a rebuke (because I'm a very casual member with no clout or authority and also just because I don't mean it to be one, truly), but I'd just like to offer these as a reminder of a couple of things Andrea did and allowed that render her an extremely negligent and even abusive parent: 

• Andrea allowed her stepfather to be very touchy-feely and physically affectionate with her young daughters and sons despite knowing and understanding that he is a convicted sex offender. There is no excuse for that. I am not asserting that he has behaved inappropriately with her children, just that it is an irresponsible thing to allow.
• Andrea pushed for the family to stay in the same irresponsibly small and otherwise unfinished and inappropriate for their needs house despite having the money to move to one more suitable.
• Andrea deliberately took every measure she could (within what was acceptable within her worldview) to become and stay pregnant as many times as possible despite admitting that they already had a lot of children and that Tom wasn't perhaps quite as willing as she was. Yes, this is an issue that Tom had equal responsibility in, but I believe Andrea was addicted to having children, and Tom wasn't going to say no to sex, because he assumed he'd never have to bear the weight of his parental responsibilities and actually, y'know, be a parent.
• Andrea had her babies sleeping in a flimsy moses basket on top of a high dresser in her bedroom. I don't think I need to explain the danger there.
• When Thomas was bitten by a dog, Andrea 'treated' it with herbs and tinctures rather than pursuing actual medical care for her son. I don't know if they eventually did seek medical care for him, as I was no longer watching at this point, and if they did I welcome correction.
• Andrea hid several abuses going on in her house from her youtube audience. One that comes to mind is of their dog, Knuckles, who suffered from a skin condition that - rather than getting it checked at the vet and healed with proper, medical grade treatment - made herbal salves (that did not work, it must be said, because if they had then I might have not mentioned this point at all) for him. She also allowed the children to treat him roughly, with one particular instance of Solomon pushing and shoving Knuckles for being in his way during a homeschool vlog sticking out very clearly in my mind. It was the one and only time I was ever tempted to comment on a video she posted. 
• Andrea neglected her children to the point where Asher stepped in to become "Claudia's favourite person" (when she was a baby, as he took care of her diapers, carried her around, and fed her when Andrea was busy filming), and now I can only assume that the same happened with Hannah too. Bear in mind, please, that Asher was barely 12 when he was already taking on this paternal role in Claudia's life.
• Andrea denied the children access to an adequate curriculum. Perhaps this is my hill to die on, but the education of children is so important, and to have them solely learning from ACE materials and whatever it was that they could find in the library is not the optimal educational experience she could have given them. I agreed with her when she said that not all children can be excellent super bright stars, but she should have facilitated giving them the opportunities to experience their interests, rather than assigning them the careers she wanted them to do herself and only entertaining that.
• Andrea fed the children an extremely unhealthy diet. I agree with you, there was fresh produce and a lot of healthier choices when Andrea was alive. Her meal card system - I actually thought - was a fantastic way of introducing variety and choice into her children's diets. But, that doesn't change the fact that she did buy them a lot of junk food, and did encourage their snacking on sugary snacks, going as far as to bake sugar loaded cookies and treats instead of opting for cheap fruits and vegetables when money was tighter. I came from the same type of food-as-reward type of household and still struggle with my eating and weight today, so I wouldn't be surprised if some of her children have the same hurdle to overcome in their adult lives.

There are more examples, I'm sure. These are the few that stick out in my mind that I can remember, because it's been a long whole now since I watched their vlogs (but, as I have hinted at before, I would watch the homeschool vlog and recipe videos and special occasions videos every week for around two and a bit years, so I could probably think of more if I tried). I'm not some bullshitter who only watched the worst videos and formed my opinion on them (I doubt anyone who comments here is), I really liked the family (well, barring Tom), for a long while.  I don't think Andrea was necessarily evil, but she believed evil things and promoted evil things.

Andrea was just as bad as Tom. Tom is just far worse - or simply not interested - in hiding the crazy. There is no doubt in my mind that Andrea loved her kids and adored her husband, but that's not enough to temper her negligence, abuse, and shitty parenting, and she was not worthy of the pass I gave her back then because I liked her soothing voice, recipe videos, and organisational tips any more than Tom is now from all of his leghumping wannabe stream-wives.

Again, I truly and honestly hope that you did not see this post as a hand-slap or as anything intending meanness towards you. I just feel as though it's my responsibility, now, to remind lurkers or potential fans of the Mills family, what it is that they're truly supporting, the same things that I myself overlooked because it was easier to reconcile.

(I will say, I agree that there are extremely pushy and nasty people on FJ. I don't think we're in agreement about who they are, but board culture a little while back tended towards the downright toxic - which I myself contributed to, to my discredit - at times, and I took a big step back in the hopes of being better myself.)

 

You summed this up perfectly. I just wanted to add that all of this was/is being broadcast for an audience, which is the worst part because there are vulnerable and naive people who looked to her and now him for advice and ideas. 

[Gussie]

I am pleasantly surprised to find there is agreement on bullying and the presence of domineering personalities. 
I have comments only to Escadora and her critiques of Andrea Mills' mothering skills.  

 

So without going  into each of those points specifically (from exposing her children to the danger of being molested by a perverted grandfather, to the danger of sleeping in a moses basket  on top of a dresser, unhealthy diet, herbal remedies, homeschool curriculum, and all the rest.) I will point out only 3 things.  First of all, Andreawas nutty, but not neglectful and NOT a bad parent.  As a female academic with no children, I can say I observe my cohort from the outside.  I have all my life been accused of not knowing what it is to be a good mom.  And I have seen women who turn their mothering skills into their careers.  They try to out-do one another in the excellence of their mothering skills, they turn it into a point of pride which is measurable by tiny little milestones (girl scout badges, iowa achievement test scores).  And failure to adhere to these milestones means the person who HAS met them and pointed out the failure in someone else, is the winner and the failed mom is the loser.  In a head to head competition.  I have always accepted my own loser position in these contexts, because as I said, I have no kids. 

However, my own excellent parents had a small business in a very bad neighborhood  in the worst neighborhood of Chicago, where there were drugs, and gangs and violence and prostitution.  My dad owned the building our business was in and there were apartments in the building and families who lived in them were very poor.  They were inevitably good kind people (except the people who were living in the apartments when he bought the building. They were eventually evicted and nice families who moved in.  They were Hispanic families, and AA families and hard-working and kind and tired and humble and sincere. 

Now, knowing their circumstances and their means, I would say they did outstanding jobs raising their children.  They were kind and happy and respectful children.  Some of the kids who lived in my dad's buildings were developmentally delayed.  One kid had a neurological disorder that meant the mom was always having to take him to the emergency room when he had seizures, so there were always paramedics and ambulances etc..  

Now, many of those kids ate beans and rice.  They ate dirt from the ground.  They ate Puerto Rican traditional dishes which were gross (sorry but they were;  lots of oil and grease and unusual spices, pork and beans and gravy).  Never a fresh vegetable (I baby-sat a lot and knew what was in the fridges).  The kids never went to the dentist, and their teeth were appalling.  The kids who were able to went to pubic schools, but there was a woman who worked and who had three kids (2 boys and a girl).  The daughter was a dear friend of mine (we are still in touch) and she did home schooling so she could be with her developmentally delayed brothers while her mom worked.  She graduated from her curriculum (that was ALSO very Pentecostal and religious) and went to a local community college, and became a dental hygienist.  She is married and has two kids of her own and one of her developmentally delayed brothers lives with her.  Her mom died, and so did the brother who had seizures.  But her husband (a pastor) is a sweet loving man, and they are very happy and their family is very strong.  

My point being that while Andrea clearly had a mental illness in want to be pregnant ALL Of the time, even if it meant dosing herself with outrageous levels of hormones, she DID on the whole, provide for a reasonable childhood.  I have no problem with the house being cramped or tiny or the number of children being so large.  My father's grandmmother (in Germany) had 23 children! Twenty three children.  And that was not unusual for the time.  They lived on a farm and it was normal for a woman to have a baby every year.  As she did.   She bore a child and was frequently back at work hours later. My father's OTHER grandmother was the town midwife and she herself had 13 kids.  And they lived in a house with 4 rooms on the main floor and a dormitory upstairs.  All 13 kids slept in the dormitory.  The house was actually very similar to Andrea's: main room was a kitchen and living room combined, a master bedroom for the parents and a utility room where they washed clothes, and stored food.  I know this because I inherited that house.  So I think the modern standards that the competitive moms adhere to are not necessary.  It may be common in today's society to have larger houses and a room for each kid, but it is not necessary.  I would also be willing to bet the Millenial generation will not adhere to those standards and will return to housing of  minimalism.  Minimal space and minimal cost.  That is  perfectly acceptable in my view.  I myself live in a house about 50% bigger than the Mills' house, so I appreciate having a place for all of my stuff.  But I also know it is just stuff and I will be doing MAJOR downsizing when I retire and move into a tinyhouse somewhere in Alaska (My dream). 

Secondly, it is not insane to want to have a huge family, and it is possible to be good parents to large broods.  I would obviously never want to do it (as I said, childless scientist here).  I would also like to point out that I have been a highly-in-demand baby-sitter my entire life long.  When I was earning my PhD, all of the professor's on my committee used to reserve my services as early as possible for departmental faculty functions because their kids loved having me babysit (I played with them very energetically, and  we did stuff like jump on the beds), and because I tired them out and the kids slept late the next morning.  Just wanting to point out that I am familiar with a LOT of different households and different child-rearing techniques (I was a nanny in graduate school too).  Including parents who had their newborn infants sleeping in their bed with them for a whole year and who breastfed their kids till age 5!   and parents who believed in letting their kids scream, and parents who used a moses basket instead of a crib, and bunk beds when the kids got older.  All of which is fine, because quite honestly, the kids don't notice.  I  do not think of a moses basket on a dresser as being death-defying, but once again I am not in the had-to-head mommy competition.  I think the Mills' kids homeschool education is fine (not great) for what it is designed to do.   But I DO think they should be pursuing higher education and training.  

But lastly, the one thing I have no response for is Grandpa Gary.  I would not have allowed him access to those kids by himself, but we also  don't know the details of his case.  I wondered if it was Andrea herself he abused.  It may account for why she went to live with relatives in OK for a couple of years.  At any rate, the department of Children and Family Services were called more than 30 times to inspect their home and to delve into the spcifics of their kids' lives, and the charges of exposure to Grandpa Gary were UNDOUBTEDLY made known to them.  I can only accede to their greater wisdom.    

So, to summarize:  Andrea was moderately  nuts,  in wanting to be pregnant all the time.  No argument from me.  And in being SO paranoid about medical procedures.  But for the most part, she was an entirely satisfactory parent and if you compared her to actual normal standards of childcare as opposed to the head-to-head mommy competition, she'd seem far more acceptable to you.  I have seen true poverty and neglect and this was not it. 

But what is happening now is exactly that.  Tom is not feeding them regularly, is neglecting them to a criminal degree (like when he allows Hannah to scream and cream and scream), is engaging in addiction behavior (the distraction stuff with the online you tubing, the bible-study, the board games).  HE also plays favorites with the children, and in agreement with what most of yoou hav noticed, my heart breaks for little Claudia, who, I fear, with grow up with addiction in her future.  The rest of the family seems rarely to be present any more (aunts, uncles, cousins, grandma and Grandpa), and I suspect they are disagreeing with his preferred behaviors.   I hope he will be charged with neglect and that there will be a court-appointed officer to protect the children with random inspections.  

Edited April 5, 2020 by Gussie
clarity

[PotsPansPatriarchy]

2 hours ago, mollysmom said:

 

Yup. There is no reason for that. Unfortunately that is what certain members do & it pisses me the fuck off. Hugs from me to you. I understood exactly what you were trying to say & I'm not sure what the problem is either. 

 

Exactly. 

Yeah is there a way to block certain members? I don’t play that shit. Not for a fucking second.

 

[SilverBeach]

4 hours ago, Itsjustme said:

I'm so sick over this I've cried and thrown up.  But you keep going on and on about it. Enough already before I have another stroke, please!

Nothing on FJ is worth this. Folks can have strong opinions here and sometimes things can sound confrontational, but are not always meant that way. And if they are, so what? We can choose at any time to simply stop engaging. Most of us on here for any length of time have stepped away at one point or another when things got heated. Please care for yourself, and log off for awhile if need be. 

1 minute ago, PotsPansPatriarchy said:

Yeah is there a way to block certain members? I don’t play that shit. Not for a fucking second.

 

It's called ignore on FJ.

[PotsPansPatriarchy]

1 minute ago, SilverBeach said:

 

It's called ignore on FJ.

Thank you. How do I make use of said feature? 

Furthermore, why is that level of verbal aggression being tolerated?

[SilverBeach]

1 minute ago, PotsPansPatriarchy said:

Thank you. How do I make use of said feature? 

Furthermore, why is that level of verbal aggression being tolerated?

On a laptop, hover over the member's name, and you will see "ignore user" pop up. 

Unless there is a rule violation, everyone here is free to say what they want. 

[Gussie]

I can't believe I forgot to address the issue of Knuckles!

Knuckles was  an American Bulldog, which is a cross between the Staffordshire and the Bull Mastiff.  These dogs are very large and powerful.  The Muscular Dystophy Association uses them as wheel chair assistance service dogs.  I myself had one until two years ago, when he had to be put down after he was severely injured.  He was the love of my life.  In the 7 years I had my dog (I got him when he was 4, from the muscular dystrophy association. I rescued him, after the kid he had been a service dog to  died, and the parents gavehim up to the pound).   I spent in excess of $50,000 on medical care for him.  He had knee surgery and shoulder surgery (wear and tear from having been a wheel chair service dog) and surgery on his forepaw (he developed a megalocytoma after a poodle bit him);  but the MOST costly thing was a drug called Apoquel.  ALL American Bulldogs have skin issues.  They have horrific allergies and break out in these horrific rashes. It drove me crazy. I would get out of the tub in the morning and find my beautiful baby had scratched himself bloody.  His vet tried everything:  steroids, itch medications, medicated baths, lotions, allergy treatments.  NOTHING worked.  Till about 5 years ago, when a miracle cure was developed by a company called Zooetics or maybe Zoonetics?  Something like that).  Apoquel is an inhibitor of a cytokine called IL24 (I believe--- can't be sure about the number), which is in the JakStat signaling cascade for skin allergy. It is beautifully specific, has ZERO side effects, and allows the dog to be completely symptom free.  It works on ALL types of dogs.  However, the bigger the dog, the more drug you have to give them.  My dog required 4 tablets/day, which came to approximately $15/day.  So I spent about $5000/year on prescription meds for my dog.  

I corresponded with Andrea about this, but she  said there was no way they would ever be able to afford that.  I couldn't believe it.  I was willing to b homeless to spare my dog, and could not understand being so heartless.  But of course, they had 9 kids and weren't buying them dental care.  $15/day on itch medication for knuckles would have been prohibitive. 

I get it though. There were many moths when I reviewed my budget and scrimped on food and clothes and utilities so I could afford my dog's prescriptions. If there is no wiggle room, that would not be possible.  And there were no less expensive alternatives.  Knuckles was a big dog.  They might have been able to get away with $10/day instead of $15 (my dog was huge), but $300/month would have gotten the better transportation, dental care, any number of things.  I can't hold that against them.  What bothered me the most, though, is that they lavished no love or TLC on Knuckles.  That was cruel.  

[SilverBeach]

4 hours ago, Gussie said:

And by the way, I used to enjoy Andrea Mills' videos. They were informative and taught me organizational schemes, which I appreciated.  

I agree with some of what you have written, particularly with respect to the economic inequalities between men and women, but I still don't see how anyone could enjoy anything produced by someone who thought Sandy Hook was a hoax and who mocked grieving parents. Andrea was batshit and a garbage human. 

[formergothardite]

I have read everyone's replies, especially the ones that mention me . I'm not going to bother to reply because I will just be accused of being a bully. So it seems pretty damn pointless, and I'm 100% not invested enough in this to actually jump into an exercise in futility. I'd rather sit around overthinking The Tiger King. I feel like they need another documentary to explain this one, because I have so many questions. 

ETA: I'm I'm not meaning this in a passive aggressive way. Obviously Gussie put a lot of time and thought into her post towards me and I wanted to explain why I wasn't going to reply. 

18 minutes ago, PotsPansPatriarchy said:

Furthermore, why is that level of verbal aggression being tolerated?

If you think someone has violated a rule, it can be reported. FJ is a place of many debates, the ones in this thread are extremely mild, so I really doubt anything would fall under a violation. FJ isn't for everyone. 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by formergothardite

[SilverBeach]

9 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

FJ is a place of many debates, the ones in this thread are extremely mild, so I really doubt anything would fall under a violation. FJ isn't for everyone. 

Yeah, I agree with this, although I might charecterize the debate in this thread as moderate, LOL.

[formergothardite]

Just now, SilverBeach said:

Yeah, I agree with this, although I might charecterize the debate in this thread as moderate, LOL.

I can agree with that.  Compared to the great peanut butter war though........

 

 

[SilverBeach]

Just now, formergothardite said:

I can agree with that.  Compared to the great peanut butter war though........

 

 

OMG peanut butter, breastfeeding, there are several topics of doom where it gets downright ugly!

[formergothardite]

3 minutes ago, SilverBeach said:

OMG peanut butter, breastfeeding, there are several topics of doom where it gets downright ugly!

I'm entirely too scared of the breastfeeding debates. Those get nasty! I do kind of miss a good Civil war debate. We haven't had one in years. I learned a ridiculous amount of historical information during those debates. 

Edited April 5, 2020 by formergothardite