Mills Family 6: Livestreaming Dinner Because That Is Totally Normal

[Pleiades_06]

1 hour ago, Gussie said:

They ate Puerto Rican traditional dishes which were gross (sorry but they were; 

Urgh was it necessary to write this? It’s so condescending.

I think your point was people do the best they can do in the circumstances they find themselves in?

1 hour ago, Gussie said:

Just wanting to point out that I am familiar with a LOT of different households and different child-rearing techniques

No need to justify yourself...I’m a parent but being one doesn’t make me a child care expert. 
I think most people would agree that we shouldn’t punish or judge  people for all their parenting choices, but the Mills were extreme, even considering their poverty. For example, they didn’t take advantage of benefits they were entitled to, which resulted in numerous problems for their kids.

[can'tstopwatching]

If you want to watch Tom spend an hour in the middle of the day away from his kids & responsibilities so he can eat a candy bar live while calling the response to the virus an overreaction, saying putting his fingers in his mouth won't do anything, and valuing the economy over people's lives, I recommend watching his latest live. If you don't, I do not recommend.

[formergothardite]

Just now, can'tstopwatching said:

If you want to watch Tom spend an hour in the middle of the day away from his kids & responsibilities so he can eat a candy bar live while calling the response to the virus an overreaction, saying putting his fingers in his mouth won't do anything, and valuing the economy over people's lives, I recommend watching his latest live. If you don't, I do not recommend.

As tempting as this sounds, I think I will just have to stick with overthinking The Tiger King. 

[Gussie]

First to Pleiades, no it was not condescending, it was matter of fact reporting.  I found it gross.   It was factual reporting of my experience.  What WOULD be condescending would be to pretend that you like it, while hating it.  To perhaps snark about it behind a person's back, but to fake approval when you feel anything but.  I have a Danish friend who moved to China.  She Loathes Chinese food and is not reticent about telling you why.  IT may be politically incorrect, but it is honest.  

I have many other things to say, but I think I will wait for the FJ debating faction to settle down.  When they run out of things to say, I might venture back in.  

 

[PotsPansPatriarchy]

36 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I have read everyone's replies, especially the ones that mention me . I'm not going to bother to reply because I will just be accused of being a bully. So it seems pretty damn pointless, and I'm 100% not invested enough in this to actually jump into an exercise in futility. I'd rather sit around overthinking The Tiger King. I feel like they need another documentary to explain this one, because I have so many questions. 

ETA: I'm I'm not meaning this in a passive aggressive way. Obviously Gussie put a lot of time and thought into her post towards me and I wanted to explain why I wasn't going to reply. 

If you think someone has violated a rule, it can be reported. FJ is a place of many debates, the ones in this thread are extremely mild, so I really doubt anything would fall under a violation. FJ isn't for everyone. 

 

I don't give a fuck whether it's a rule violation or naw. Verbally abusing another person might be perceived as acceptable in fucking gothardland but motherfucking newsflash: it's not acceptable. Not there. Not here. Not anywhere. Not acceptable even though it doesn't violate a little FJ rule. 

Maybe go back to your little echo chamber that is gothardism? Being a part of normal society isn't for everyone.

[formergothardite]

15 minutes ago, PotsPansPatriarchy said:

Verbally abusing another person might be perceived as acceptable in fucking gothardland but motherfucking newsflash: it's not acceptable. Not there. Not here. Not anywhere. Not acceptable even though it doesn't violate a little FJ rule. 

I haven't verbally abused anyone. I'm truly confused about why people are accusing me of these things. Someone said something that appeared to be very offensive and I asked for clarification because the thing said wasn't something that is acceptable, but I felt like there was a strong chance the poster didn't actually mean it in that way. I did not call anyone a name or tear them down as a person, I did point out that what was said in the way that it was said is sexists,  but I wasn't the only one who asked for clarification on the post. 

And since you might not be aware, I was raised in a cult that was headed up by Bill Gothard. I am not in it. 

 

Edited April 5, 2020 by formergothardite

[Escadora]

@Gussie 

In light of your post, I think we're going to have to respectfully disagree. And, again, this post is not me intending to be rude/ rebuke you/ anything like that at all, I just get very wordy at times. 

You can say you know Andrea wasn't a bad mother, and I can say that I do know that she was a bad mother. I used to believe the same thing that you did; evidence and perspective has changed my mind. Maybe you will change your mind, maybe you won't. What's important to me is bringing to light the facts of Andrea's behaviour; whether or not you think the things I listed make her a bad parent is up to you, but she allowed all of them (and much more) to be shown, and the critique she has gotten in return is her own fault. I am glad we're keeping this respectful, though, because I do hate it when threads turn into mud-slinging zones (again, have been guilty, have made steps to be better).

In response to your comment, I will say that if your main defence of Andrea as being a good mother and their house as being adequate for their family is to compare her and it against the very worst examples of what you think bad parenting and a bad environment for children is, then obviously she and it are going to come up as comparatively great. In my books, that's not a fantastic, convincing argument, but obviously you're under no obligation to attempt to convert me (I dare say that would be impossible). I will give you that her children's basic needs were somewhat adequately met whilst she was alive; they were (poorly, unhealthily) fed, (appropriately) warm, (inadequately) housed, and (mostly) happy.

But, they were also, as I said, exposed to a child predator (I believe the details of his case were greater explained somewhere within these threads, I personally would absolutely describe him as a danger to children, but I'm not interested in going back to find them), medically neglected, and everything else I already said.

To reiterate: her son was attacked on the face by an aggressive dog and she thought it an acceptable course of treatment not to pursue a precautionary rabies shot, or antiseptic medical grade cleaning, stitches, or even to go and get his face checked out at all but instead to make him a tincture from her herb collection and call that good. That is negligent behaviour, in a society where medical care for them would be covered by programs offered to them by the state (they qualified for medicare, but refused to accept it, and had Samaritan: there was no excuse to not get Thomas checked out as he was ((is? I lost track of ages long ago)) a minor, reliant on them for guidance and care), refusing to provide medical care for a child is abuse; sadly only one small example of such behaviour Andrea indulged in.

I also found out in these threads that, although I used to assume differently, physical/corporal punishment is a tool they both use(d) in their parenting arsenal. I am willing to cop flack for outright stating that hitting a child for anything at any time for any reason is abuse (I grew up in a household where this was extremely common. Parents may have "their reasons", but I will never believe that hitting/ spanking/ smacking/ slapping a child even once could ever be done in the spirit of love, and no one will ever convince me of it). Parents who continually hit their children or allow their children to be hit are bad parents; time and again it has been proven in psychological and behavioural studies that it is an ineffective method of child rearing, regardless of whether it is permitted within religion. Especially, actually, if it is permitted by religion. 

When you write off these things (to clarify, I know that you did not write off corporal punishment as okay, and I am not putting those words in your mouth, as it was not mentioned before, but I am curious to know your stance on it) as "Oh, it's okay. This used to happen all the time and was normal, in fact, people had it way worse! They'll be fine", it leaves the door open for the rationalising of other, more dangerous things when they occur. People do better these days because they can do better. Tom and Andrea certainly could have done better, and Tom still could.  

Hey, though, I'm with you on one point. I, too, am of the opinion that you do not need to have children to be able to determine what it is that makes a good parent. I don't have children and I never intend to, (my interactions with children are almost exclusively to do with the children in my extended family and the ones that I teach) so you have no argument from me there, though I do acknowledge that it may be an unpopular opinion in general. But, then, I also admit that there are just some things that it is impossible to know if you're an outsider; I'll never understand the nuances of parenting, even if I would claim that I know what's the most good, most right course of action to take when raising children (which I don't); an outsider's perspective is only as good as their willingness to sympathise with that nuance. 

I suppose, what really matters here is that we're united in believing both that Tom is doing a piss poor job of being a father, and that something is very seriously wrong with the situation in that house. Good mother, bad mother, whatever one thinks of Andrea's parenting skills, the truth of it is that she is no longer alive and able to use them; I certainly hope that her children have nothing but good memories of their mother who loved and cared for them as best she was able or willing. I believe she loved her kids, and I believe that Tom loves his kids.

Love, however, is not enough, especially when they had more of it for themselves and each other than their children. Loving parents can still neglect. Loving parents can still abuse. Loving parents can be bad parents. 

I would finish, with the thought that maybe sympathy for the fundies who made their own choices will never be well received on FJ. Andrea had many chances to choose her life, to go in any direction she wanted (as she proudly told her audience) and she purposefully chose to follow a fundamentalist Christian value system and raised her children within the hatred and bigotry it promotes. There is sympathy, here, for the circumstances of her unfortunate passing, but if one puts their lifestyle and choices out there for public consumption, then surely critique is a natural consequence of that choice? 

I hope I've gotten my point across without seeming aggressive or domineering (again, just a wordy person who never met a long sentence she didn't like) and I welcome whatever you might have to say, even if we may ultimately still disagree.

Edited April 5, 2020 by Escadora

[formergothardite]

2 minutes ago, Escadora said:

I am willing to cop flack for outright stating that hitting a child for anything at any time for any reason is abuse

There may be some who jump on you for this, but my impression is that a good bit of FJ doesn't think there is any reason to hit a child. Hitting a child just isn't okay. 

 

[PotsPansPatriarchy]

16 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

I haven't verbally abused anyone. I'm truly confused about why people are accusing me of these things. Someone said something that appeared to be very offensive and I asked for clarification because the thing said wasn't something that is acceptable, but I felt like there was a strong chance the poster didn't actually mean it in that way. I did not call anyone a name or tear them down as a person, I did point out that what was said in the way that it was said is sexists,  but I wasn't the only one who asked for clarification on the post. 

And since you might not be aware, I was raised in a cult that was headed up by Bill Gothard. I am not in it. 

 

You have acted, here specifically, like you are still very much part of the Gothard group. And since you might not be aware, I am first-hand familiar with who they are and how they act.

Unless and until you apologize to the user you brow beat, I'm going to invite you not to reply to me or inbox me. Your behavior was completely out of fucking line; period. I don't talk to/interact with fuckin bullies. In fact, I enjoy making bullies lives as difficult as I can. You frfr need to knock that shit off right about now.

 

[Escadora]

50 minutes ago, Gussie said:

I can't believe I forgot to address the issue of Knuckles!

Knuckles was  an American Bulldog, which is a cross between the Staffordshire and the Bull Mastiff.  These dogs are very large and powerful.  The Muscular Dystophy Association uses them as wheel chair assistance service dogs.  I myself had one until two years ago, when he had to be put down after he was severely injured.  He was the love of my life.  In the 7 years I had my dog (I got him when he was 4, from the muscular dystrophy association. I rescued him, after the kid he had been a service dog to  died, and the parents gavehim up to the pound).   I spent in excess of $50,000 on medical care for him.  He had knee surgery and shoulder surgery (wear and tear from having been a wheel chair service dog) and surgery on his forepaw (he developed a megalocytoma after a poodle bit him);  but the MOST costly thing was a drug called Apoquel.  ALL American Bulldogs have skin issues.  They have horrific allergies and break out in these horrific rashes. It drove me crazy. I would get out of the tub in the morning and find my beautiful baby had scratched himself bloody.  His vet tried everything:  steroids, itch medications, medicated baths, lotions, allergy treatments.  NOTHING worked.  Till about 5 years ago, when a miracle cure was developed by a company called Zooetics or maybe Zoonetics?  Something like that).  Apoquel is an inhibitor of a cytokine called IL24 (I believe--- can't be sure about the number), which is in the JakStat signaling cascade for skin allergy. It is beautifully specific, has ZERO side effects, and allows the dog to be completely symptom free.  It works on ALL types of dogs.  However, the bigger the dog, the more drug you have to give them.  My dog required 4 tablets/day, which came to approximately $15/day.  So I spent about $5000/year on prescription meds for my dog.  

I corresponded with Andrea about this, but she  said there was no way they would ever be able to afford that.  I couldn't believe it.  I was willing to b homeless to spare my dog, and could not understand being so heartless.  But of course, they had 9 kids and weren't buying them dental care.  $15/day on itch medication for knuckles would have been prohibitive. 

I get it though. There were many moths when I reviewed my budget and scrimped on food and clothes and utilities so I could afford my dog's prescriptions. If there is no wiggle room, that would not be possible.  And there were no less expensive alternatives.  Knuckles was a big dog.  They might have been able to get away with $10/day instead of $15 (my dog was huge), but $300/month would have gotten the better transportation, dental care, any number of things.  I can't hold that against them.  What bothered me the most, though, is that they lavished no love or TLC on Knuckles.  That was cruel.  

Oh, my love and heartfelt thanks to you for the care you showed your dog. I have a Staffordshire Bull Terrier myself. She's 13 years old and half-blind, mostly deaf, limps because of the hip problems her breed are prone too, and yet still the sweetest, dopiest (and smartest) girl in the entire world. My world will be worse off for her eventual passing, and I do everything I can (both with the help of my vet and her physical therapist) for her happiness too. I can't imagine another way, but this was what I signed up for when I offered to take her from my parents who became unable to care for her. When you opt to have a dog with medical problems, you opt to care for them to the best of your ability, we're in complete agreement. It's costly, but it's worth it. 

Thank you for speaking with her about Knuckles, and finding that out. I hope he didn't live his life in too much pain, especially given that he was not loved in the way he deserved to be.

@formergothardite Thank you for clarifying that for me. I had assumed that this was still the general sort of mostly agreed upon opinion of FJ on this matter (the assertion that FJ isn't a "hive-vagina" is true, after all), but whether that's changed doesn't bother me; the opinions of people who think it's okay to hit children are worthless to me, and I'm not so desperately committed to being a good person that I'll let anyone touting it as good parenting go without some harshly worded opinion to the contrary.

[formergothardite]

 I didn't brow beat, I didn't call names. I didn't attack anyone personally. I'm not sure what you want me to apologize for. 

FJ doesn't stand by and let sexist statements stand.  So if someone makes sexists statements they be questioned about. And in this case since I understood that she often has difficulties explaining her thoughts, which is why I was pretty damn nice about asking and even when she confirmed that she did believe that, I asked again just because I was giving her the benefit of a doubt. 

You really aren't making my life difficult. I'm mostly mildly confused about the reactions on this thread. This is weird. 

 

[Mom2Bubby]

So Tom went live twice today. Once while they were having home church. Once after home church when he was taking a walk. I only watched a couple of minutes of each so far. It looked to me like the usual fans were commenting in the live chat. Crazy stalker Rachel was front and center. With so much going on with my husbands health and everything else that is going on, I just couldn’t sit through watching this smarmy jack ass today. I’m sure it was all the same as usual-ignoring his kids for his fans, not feeding his children anything healthy and acting like Mr. know-it-all. Wash-rinse-repeat. 

[feministxtian]

6 hours ago, Itsjustme said:

Right yes! Why are people badgering a person who is disabled???? I put quotations around BORROWING meaning in the context of taking wrongly from a person, Man woman or anyone. 

 

In this sebtence I put : 

lol...I'm thinking of a Judge Judy episode where she told this women whose boyfriend kept "borrowing" money from her,

 

I don't understand why it's so important to gang up on someone when you can just explain things kindly. I'm so sick over this I've cried and thrown up.  But you keep going on and on about it. Enough already before I have another stroke, please!

 

You're not the only one here dealing with issues/disability/etc. Its not an excuse worthy enough to be accepted. And, if you've cried and thrown up over this, maybe you're too sensitive to play with the big girls. Wanting preferential treatment when you stick your foot in your mouth does not happen here...trust me. 

[Kailash]

I feel like there’s a troll in the dungeon.

[Gussie]

Uh, formergothardite?  I haven't posted here in months, because YOU were a complete and total bully.  You were abusive and rude and downright hostile.  If I had been in your presence I would have felt you were threatening.   Other people do engage in the occasional passive-aggressive attack, and like grade school meangirls, y'all do have a clique here,  but you alone accelerate into irrational over the top expletive-ridden attacks.  The very definition of bully.  

Freejinger appears to be your personal playground, so I left (and lurked)  rather than invade  it.  Your rants on  men and women being exactly the same in terms of accepting money from each other pushed me back.  I would have to say apart from the bullying, your positions themselves are not all that well-researched or intellectually sound, so you make it difficult to ignore you.  If you are truly merely baffled and not riled (which I confess I find mystifying ---- you do not brook opposition), you might wish to do some introspection on your anger and insistence that your opinions are the ONLY correct ones.  

And what does "I fell like there's a troll in the dungeon" mean?  Is this referring to me?  I can promise, I am not trolling.  I do notenjoy anger, my own or anyone else's.

[Kailash]

Uh, Gussie? YOU are angry, formergothardite is not. 

Yes, the troll refers to you. We haven’t heard from you in months and suddenly you stroll on with guns blazing, all scorched earth, and attack formergotherdite, all while accusing her of doing that to you. And you just happen to have had a dog with a similar or exact problem as Andrea. Huh.

[Escadora]

14 minutes ago, Kailash said:

I feel like there’s a troll in the dungeon.

It's true, lockdown's hit me real hard. Haven't washed my hair in 4 days, haven't put on makeup for two weeks, barely get out of pyjamas most days... it's not flattering. 

troll's a little harsh, though ?

Edited April 5, 2020 by Escadora
um i regret my attempt at levity almost instantly given that i just read the next reply and i feel like shit's about to go down (which i still hope it doesn't). sorry for the out of place post

[Tekas_76]

19 minutes ago, Kailash said:

I feel like there’s a troll in the dungeon.

The other day, at a certain live somebody confessed to be a member of FJ just to spy (She was Mam Fab, something like that, idk) pretending to be a member. Can you all remember that?!? So, some things sound strange, like seeding the disruption and lack of agreement between people here, causing fights, etc... all in a very soft way... jmo

[Giraffe]

23 minutes ago, Escadora said:

It's true, lockdown's hit me real hard. Haven't washed my hair in 4 days, haven't put on makeup for two weeks, barely get out of pyjamas most days... it's not flattering. 

troll's a little harsh, though ?

Seriously had a moment not long ago where I looked in the mirror and started wondering when I last showered! 

[Escadora]

58 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

You're not the only one here dealing with issues/disability/etc. Its not an excuse worthy enough to be accepted. And, if you've cried and thrown up over this, maybe you're too sensitive to play with the big girls. Wanting preferential treatment when you stick your foot in your mouth does not happen here...trust me. 

Also, insinuating that it is the fault of someone online for questioning you on an opinion you have as being the reason for a stroke you could potentially have is kinda shitty and manipulative, especially when you have the option to just block that person and not reply. It's an anonymous online forum, no one's threatening anyone, and nobody has the power to perpetuate real harm against each other beyond perhaps emotional pain, which we ourselves let in. If a person's really having that strong a reaction to an online disagreement that has no bearing on real life outside of the internet at all, perhaps it'd be the healthier, more sensible thing to do to just take a break or find new threads to lurk in. (literally, not trying to be condescending. i got real attached to fj popularity and my perception of what it meant a couple years ago, some months away and a focus on real life kicked that out of me real quick, and i'm better off being a once-in-a-while comment storm than a steady stream of commentary on this site, I'm just not cut out for the politics of it all)

I agree with the poster to some extent, actually, on their main argument. I don't think men and women are equal because society still has a lot of areas in which it needs to be improved before true equality can be claimed (obviously, I wish the day would come sooner). At best, what we have now might be considered an attempt towards equity, but even then it's dubious. Pretending as though men and women are equal in societies where it's clearly obvious that they're not actually furthers the problem, but I'm not suggesting that that's what anyone's doing, just to be clear. 

There is something very wrong, specifically, with Tom soliciting donations from women that he knows feel badly for him and his family when he himself has supported his late wife in saying that they're raising their daughters to pursue marriage and motherhood (presumably, that means that they'll be encouraged to eschew pursuing a career and thus financial independence). It does reek of a kind of hypocrisy, "other women can work (or take from their own families to feed ((candy to)) his), but his daughters are ultra special good Christian girls who will marry and have children because that's God's plan for them", is the impression I've gotten from Tom on that front. Perhaps (but not for certain) this might be what that poster was alluding to? 

Edited April 5, 2020 by Escadora

[Mom2Bubby]

57 minutes ago, Tekas_76 said:

The other day, at a certain live somebody confessed to be a member of FJ just to spy (She was Mam Fab, something like that, idk) pretending to be a member. Can you all remember that?!? So, some things sound strange, like seeding the disruption and lack of agreement between people here, causing fights, etc... all in a very soft way... jmo

I guess I must have missed that live. Do you know which live it was? I’ve missed a few lives lately. I’d be curious to see what was said. Thanks in advance. ?

Edited April 5, 2020 by Mom2Bubby
Added a sentence

[PotsPansPatriarchy]

24 minutes ago, Mom2Bubby said:

I guess I must have missed that live. Do you know which live it was? I’ve missed a few lives lately. I’d be curious to see what was said. Thanks in advance. ?

Her username is MAMfan followed by something or other. Typical Tom leghumper and also brown-noses and defers to Rachel. Stopped watching the lives because they're dull af and I have better things to do but before I quit I blocked both of them because they're so vapid.

[Fawn]

Can you take your disagreements about each other to private messages? It's just a gossip site really, if you're getting so upset you're throwing up then you really need to reconsider if this is the right place to be...

I bet Tom is loving this though, the more you argue about each other the less he is talked about

[dawbs]

ALRIGHTY I'm seeing people say they think some things are disruptive/rule-breaky/should-be-against-rules, etc.

You know what you can do if someone breaks the rules?
You can report the post. 
(Guess what?  I've been trying to keep 1/2 an eye on FJ while living life today and I saw the 'reported post' mod alert come up zero times today)

And know what you can do if it doesn't break rules and you think it should?
You can take it up into the rules discussion forums.

And know what you can do if someone really upsets you and you don't want to see things they say?
You can put them on ignore (and you can ask in the tech forum if you need help with that)

And if someone really upsets you and you choose not to put the on ignore?
You're choosing to subject yourself to them.  If you find them to be really upsetting, I'd say it's time to take a break from the internet

Re: taking a break, speaking as just a human being living life in this moment.

I'm finding our online lives are much (MUCH) too real and important to us right now as we're socially distancing IRL and our only interactions are online.  Take a walk (even if it's cold and rainy and nighttime), read a book, do some yoga (BTW, I hate yoga),  pet a cat (or dog. or rabbit.  Rat.  Whatever-doesn't even have to be fuzzy, I'm not specie-ist), do a craft, pour a whiskey, make some tea, have a bubble-gum-bubble blowing contest with an 8-yo, kick a pillow, play solitaire.

But, if you're finding things too 'real' online, it is time it's time to find something real that's offline.

(The non-mod-ly advice up there is worth exactly what you paid for it, and comes with an IOU for a fortune cookie)

Edited April 6, 2020 by choralcrusader8613

[laPapessaGiovanna]

Thanks @dawbs.

I'd just add, in case It wasn't super clear already, that if posters will persist porsuing this disagreement idiotic row on this thread the posts will be moved to CD to avoid further disruption.