No good ending here: Idaho mom dead, other kids missing

[Chickenbutt]

Live feed should be here....

(3) East Idaho News | Facebook

[Chickenbutt]

Chad next court date....June 9th. Unknown time, but in the morning. Still waiting on Lori's hearing. 

[Chickenbutt]

Lori and her atty had a side bar with the judge and made a motion for the arraignment to be continued for unknown (to us) reason. State objected. Judge granted continuance. Unknown date or time. State asked that Lori's atty give notice that he intends to represent Lori throughout this. Judge asks, Means says he will file notice when he has time. 

[Chickenbutt]

Interesting take on attorneys in capital cases in Idaho. 

I.C.R. 44.3. Standards for the Qualification of Appointed Counsel in Capital Cases. | Supreme Court (idaho.gov)

Spoiler

Idaho Criminal Rule 44.3. Standards for the Qualification of Appointed Counsel in Capital Cases

 

(a)  Applicability. The provisions for the appointment of counsel in this rule apply only in cases where the defendant is needy, as defined in Idaho Code § 19-851 et seq., counsel is not privately retained by or for the defendant, and the death penalty may be or has been imposed on the defendant.

 

(b)  Number of Attorneys Per Case.

 

(1)  In a case in which the death penalty may be imposed:

 

(A)  At the initial appearance in the magistrate division, two qualified trial attorneys must be appointed to represent an indigent defendant, unless the administrative district judge or designee makes specific findings that two attorneys are not necessary.

(B)  In the district court on an indictment, two qualified trial attorneys must be appointed to represent an indigent defendant, unless the administrative district judge or the assigned district judge makes specific findings that two attorneys are not necessary.

(C)  In the event that more than one attorney is appointed, one appointed attorney must be designated "lead counsel" and the second as "co-counsel."

 

(2)  In a case in which the death penalty has been imposed:

 

(A)  The district judge who sentenced the defendant must comply with Rule 44.2.

(B)  In the event that more than one attorney is appointed, one appointed attorney must be designated "lead counsel" and the second as "co-counsel."

 

(c)  Attorney Qualifications.

 

(1)  Trial.

 

(A)  Lead trial counsel assignments must be made to attorneys who:

 

(i)  are members in good standing of the Idaho State Bar, admitted to practice in Idaho or admitted to practice pro hac vice;

(ii)  are experienced and active trial practitioners with at least five years’ litigation experience in criminal defense or prosecution;

(iii)  have served as lead counsel in no fewer than four felony jury trials of cases that were tried to completion and have served either as lead or co-counsel in one case in which the death penalty might have been imposed and which was tried through to completion, or served as lead counsel in the sentencing phase of a death penalty case;

(iv)  are familiar with the rules, practice and procedure of the district courts of the state of Idaho;

(v)  are familiar with and experienced in the utilization of expert witnesses and evidence, including, but not limited to, psychiatric and forensic evidence;

(vi)  have attended and successfully completed at least 12 hours of Idaho State Bar approved training or educational programs focusing on capital cases, within the last two years; and

(vii)  have demonstrated the proficiency and commitment necessary for the quality of representation appropriate to capital cases.

 

(B)  Co-counsel assignments must be assigned to attorneys who:

 

(i)  are members in good standing of the Idaho State Bar, admitted to practice in Idaho or admitted to practice pro hac vice; and

(ii)  qualify as lead counsel under subsection (c)(1) or meet the following requirements:

 

(1)  are experienced and active trial practitioners with at least three years’ litigation experience in criminal defense or prosecution;

(2)  have prior experience as lead counsel in at least three felony jury trials of cases which were tried to completion;

(3)  are familiar with the rules, practice and procedure of the district courts of the state of Idaho;

(4)  have attended and successfully completed at least six hours of Idaho State Bar approved training or educational programs focusing on capital cases, within the last two years; and

(5)  have demonstrated the proficiency and commitment necessary for the quality of representation appropriate to capital cases.

 

(C)  Alternate Procedures. Applications for lead and co-counsel assignments may be made by persons with extensive criminal trial experience or extensive civil litigation experience, if it is clearly demonstrated to the Idaho Supreme Court or the Court's designee that competent representation will be provided in a capital case. Lawyers appointed under this paragraph must meet either of the following qualifications:

 

(i)  experience in some stage of death penalty litigation that does not meet the levels required in subsections (c)(1)(A) or (c)(1)(B), or,

(ii)  specialized post-graduate training in the defense or prosecution of persons accused of capital crimes.

 

[EmmieJ]

So, do we think that another attorney will appointed as lead counsel for Lori, one with the required experience in criminal cases?  I hope so, to avoid the possibility of an appeal based on incompetent legal counsel.

[Chickenbutt]

I don't know if Means is qualified to handle a capital case. If he isn't, then almost certainly the court will assign an experienced (in death penalty cases) attorney to the team. I think the judge would almost have to, If he doesn't, I see an appeal for incompetent representation down the pike. 

[Howl]

Wasn't Means a general practice and divorce attorney?

[hoipolloi]

3 hours ago, Chickenbutt said:

I don't know if Means is qualified to handle a capital case.

As of yesterday's hearing, Means told the judge that he will be representing Lori & will file the appropriate paperwork, when the judge asked him outright. The question now is whether a qualified criminal law attorney (with capital case experience) will also be part of that team. 

I do NOT want to see Lori get off due to inadequate legal representation if Means is her only lawyer. 

[Chickenbutt]

Would the judge allow an inexperienced lawyer to represent Lori in a capital case? 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

3 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

Would the judge allow an inexperienced lawyer to represent Lori in a capital case? 

I really hope not. We have some smart, professional people in Idaho. We also have some idiots. I hope the judge is in the first category. 

[Chickenbutt]

If I am reading the statute correctly, the law requires lawyers be assigned to, and have the experience in, capital cases. 

My interpretation is Means will be co-counsel to death penalty qualified attorney/s. But I could be misunderstanding the statute. 

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Chickenbutt
Because my mind and fingers have thoughts of their own.

[TuringMachine]

I'm seeing that the most likely explanation for Lori's continuance is that she needs to be evaluated for competency. I'm also seeing some disagreement for how strange this is: some people are saying they've never seen it happen and others are saying it's unusual but not unprecedented. In any case it seems like we can expect delays with Lori's trial. 

It is my understanding, however, that Lori cannot use the insanity defense. Idaho only allows it when the illness prevents a person from knowing they were committing a crime, e.g. they thought they were killing a wolf not a person. This wouldn't apply to Lori even if she truly believed the whole zombie / possession thing because she still knew Tylee, JJ, and Tammy were human beings. 

If she is ruled incompetent to stand trial though we can expect significant delays while she receives treatment.

And I would like to add that I am nothing even remotely resembling a lawyer, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt.

[Chickenbutt]

"Officially, the mental incompetency ruling in the destruction of evidence case - charges related to the concealment of the children's remains - does not have any bearing on the murder case. However, Vallow's attorneys will likely seek to argue that if she is unfit to go forward in one case, the same ruling should be applied in all criminal cases against her."

Lori Vallow declared mentally incompetent to stand trial (msn.com)

[Jesquire]

28 minutes ago, Chickenbutt said:

 

Lori Vallow declared mentally incompetent to stand trial (msn.com)

DAMN. Is this appealable? Will it automatically be applied to the murder case too?

Edited May 27, 2021 by Jesquire
edit to fix my own questions

[TuringMachine]

Eventful day, Arizona has started the process to bring charges against Lori for Charle's death

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2021/05/arizona-investigators-seek-to-charge-lori-vallow-daybell-in-connection-to-charles-vallows-death/

[Chickenbutt]

From the article

“She’s lost her marbles,” Vallow told a 911 dispatcher in January 2019."

So how will that statement be used in her bid for incompetency? Can Idaho use AZ "evidence."

[EmmieJ]

WTF?  This feels like a Mark Means extra special weasel move.  While I think she may be caught up in her zombie cult, I believe she knew darn well what happened to both children and when, that she had good use of her faculties when she kept collecting Tylee's SS monthly payments (and having those funds deposited in HER bank account instead of Tylee's), as well as JJ's SSI payments.  She makes me sick.  Bitch is crazy like an evil narcissist.

[TuringMachine]

12 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

WTF?  This feels like a Mark Means extra special weasel move.  While I think she may be caught up in her zombie cult, I believe she knew darn well what happened to both children and when, that she had good use of her faculties when she kept collecting Tylee's SS monthly payments (and having those funds deposited in HER bank account instead of Tylee's), as well as JJ's SSI payments.  She makes me sick.  Bitch is crazy like an evil narcissist.

Competency isn't about her mental state at the time of the crime(s), it's about her mental state right now. It's not a defense. If anything it's a delay tactic. Not surprising either, there have been rumors that her mental state has been deteriorating in jail. The state will have her re-evaluated by someone else, so hopefully they find her competent or she is treated quickly and the trial isn't delayed too much. In the long run it's better they sort through this now rather than have her use it in an appeal later.

[EmmieJ]

@TuringMachine, thanks for that explanation.  My post was my gut reaction to the news.  Actually, it makes sense that her mental state has been worsening since being incarcerated.  It may be the first time in her life that she is facing real consequences, and she can't charm her way out.  Reality crashing through must be harsh indeed.

If I were incarcerated, I'm sure it would affect me on every level.  Even more so if the charges against me could lead to a life sentence or the death penalty.  Quite a come down from being an anointed leader of some doomsday cult.

[hoipolloi]

37 minutes ago, TuringMachine said:

Competency isn't about her mental state at the time of the crime(s), it's about her mental state right now. It's not a defense. If anything it's a delay tactic. Not surprising either, there have been rumors that her mental state has been deteriorating in jail. The state will have her re-evaluated by someone else, so hopefully they find her competent or she is treated quickly and the trial isn't delayed too much. In the long run it's better they sort through this now rather than have her use it in an appeal later.

Hopefully, this will turn out the way you suggest, and I agree that it's better to have it dealt with beforehand.

One wonders how Chad views all of this. 

[Chickenbutt]

40 minutes ago, hoipolloi said:

One wonders how Chad views all of this. 

This brings up an interesting point. I think I heard on the news that Chad wanted the trials separated and Lori was okay with them being tried together. If Chad thinks she can be judged incompetent, then he can blame her and Alex for everything and talk about after everyone close to her (Joseph Ryan, Charles Vallow, Alex Cox and maybe Tammy) was dead and he was so afraid of her that he just did as he was told by Lori and Alex because he was afraid for his life. 

I know, I know......total speculation and fiction from my mind. ?

[EmmieJ]

1 minute ago, Chickenbutt said:

This brings up an interesting point. I think I heard on the news that Chad wanted the trials separated and Lori was okay with them being tried together. If Chad thinks she can be judged incompetent, then he can blame her and Alex for everything and talk about after everyone close to her (Joseph Ryan, Charles Vallow, Alex Cox and maybe Tammy) was dead and he was so afraid of her that he just did as he was told by Lori and Alex because he was afraid for his life. 

I know, I know......total speculation and fiction from my mind. ?

I think Chad's attorney is at least competent and will put on the best defense he can for his client, which is as it should be.  But I think the prosecution and other authorities have been quietly working away on this case, getting cell phone records from all the various burner phones, etc. and I think there may be quite a bit of damming texts between all the parties involved.  Not to mention, those poor children were buried in Chad's own backyard.  I just do not see any way he gets a light sentence.  And if I were part of their inner circle, I'd be looking around for a good defense attorney in case more indictments are coming down the pike.

[Howl]

16 minutes ago, EmmieJ said:

And if I were part of their inner circle, I'd be looking around for a good defense attorney in case more indictments are coming down the pike.

Not trying to bring attention to specific people or anything, but recommended packing list for *Melani Pawlowski*

• bug-out bag
• burner phones
• guns
• money
• passport
• shady but connected lawyer on speed dial

[Chickenbutt]

True Crime Arizona: Lori Vallow's Deadly Delusions - Chapter 0: Breaking News | Deadly Delusions Podcast | azfamily.com

I don't listen to Podcasts, but saw this on the news and thought I would pass it along in case anyone is interested. They apparently do True Crime stuff. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

7 hours ago, TuringMachine said:

It is my understanding, however, that Lori cannot use the insanity defense. Idaho only allows it when the illness prevents a person from knowing they were committing a crime, e.g. they thought they were killing a wolf not a person. This wouldn't apply to Lori even if she truly believed the whole zombie / possession thing because she still knew Tylee, JJ, and Tammy were human beings. 

If she is ruled incompetent to stand trial though we can expect significant delays while she receives treatment.

And I would like to add that I am nothing even remotely resembling a lawyer, so please take everything I say with a grain of salt.

I am definitely not even a crime hobbyist, let alone a lawyer, but my understanding of Idaho in regard to insanity is that a defendant who is judged mentally incompetent will be treated or kept in a mental health facility. If and when they are ever judged competent to stand trial, they will then be tried.

That seems to be the way other cases I've heard about on the news go. For example, the case of Timmy Kinner who stabbed several people and killed 3 year old Ruya Kadir at her birthday party. He was ruled incompetent to stand trial, received treatment, then was declared competent, and is scheduled to stand trial in September. There really is no insanity plea in Idaho.

ETA--(Content warning on the Kinner article. It isn't terribly graphic, but the topic is quite sad.)

Edited May 27, 2021 by WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?
eta