Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[VelociRapture]

FYI - Amy Duggar King's Instagram account is private and FJ doesn’t allow stuff to be shared from private accounts. 

 

She’s been switching the privacy back and forth a lot in recent months. I have no clue why, but anyone who follows her should do their best to be sure her account hasn’t gone private again before sharing anything.  

[apandaaries]

22 hours ago, Iamtheway said:

That must be such an exhausting exsistence. Believing you are the only one who got it right and all the other billions of people on earth are doomed to burn in hell. How do you chose who you save? How do you save as many as possible? 

I wouldn’t get any sleep at all. 

Luckily for John Shrader, this doesn't seem to worry him at all. Since he's such an amazingly failed missionary, he draws a distinction between the truly saved and those who just pretend to be saved.  Only he alone can determine a soul's true state of salvation, and those he saves are extra special. He does enjoy weeping, wailing, and gnashing his teeth over those unsaved folks, though. But basically, he just condemns those who don't believe as he does, and has no problem using his limited power to control the followers he briefly attracts. Once they've come to their senses and fled, he is fond of obliquely criticizing them (no worries about gossip, apparently) while searching around for new victims souls to save. 

He also regularly takes to his bed for spells to recuperate from his hard ridiculous work. Never complains of insomnia, just of myriad maladies that strike him when he feels bad. Incredibly, his wife Esther is capable of taking care of all her children, husband included. 

[Seculardaisy]

1 hour ago, VelociRapture said:

FYI - Amy Duggar King's Instagram account is private and FJ doesn’t allow stuff to be shared from private accounts. 

 

She’s been switching the privacy back and forth a lot in recent months. I have no clue why, but anyone who follows her should do their best to be sure her account hasn’t gone private again before sharing anything.  

I’m not trying to say it’s right to share her posts when her Instagram is private because I know it is against the FJ rules.

But it just got me thinking... what does a person with 369K followers have to gain from going private? Your following is so massive at that point. I just don’t get it. And once your following is that big how would you ever approve anyone you know to follow you? She’s bound to get hundreds of people trying to follow her each month. 

Unless maybe you know for sure your coworkers don’t already follow you or something and don’t want them to be able to view your Instagram? I don’t even know if that would make sense but it just always confuses me when people go private with a massive number of followers. Selena Gomez did this recently too lol.

And then mostly everything about her is already somewhere on the internet just a google search away so that sucks because her privacy and personal details have already been sold away over the years. 

[Gillyweed]

3 hours ago, SapphireSlytherin said:

Maybe they were disinvited because TLC was there. By TLC. 

TLC could just give them the glare treatment

[beepy13]

45 minutes ago, Seculardaisy said:

But it just got me thinking... what does a person with 369K followers have to gain from going private?

I was about to say the same thing...having 369K followers has to make it kind of hard to keep your information private.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

Regarding, coming out of fundydom starts wilth a "well that's bullshit" moment, then hopefully critical thinking kicks in. But it can take years before all the crap beliefs fall off and the rest of your life to heal. At least this was my experience and others I know as well. And the guilt, oh my god, the guilt is sickening.  Fundamentalism is evil!

[JordynDarby5]

9 hours ago, Gillyweed said:

TLC could just give them the glare treatment

Derick and TLC in the same room together. Now that sounds like something that would be fun to watch. Derick who can't keep his mouth shut, and TLC who he's tried to claim he and Jill "volunteered", wouldn't pay for his kid's hospital bill, who's shot off his mouth about other TLC shows oh yeah and who fired him. 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

On 6/28/2018 at 2:21 PM, Palimpsest said:

I always think of Christian Fundamentalism as a huge Venn diagram with many overlapping groups.  You just have to see where people fit when it comes to their hate filled beliefs.

 

On 6/28/2018 at 8:56 PM, Firebird said:

You end up with this huge kettle of soup made up with various religion's left overs, traditions, Biblical intepretations, and culture. Your bowl may have some potatos and carrots in it. Mine may have some potatos and peas. It looks different on the outside, but it still came from the same Fundamentalist pot.

(Sorry. I know this is from ages ago.) The idea of a Venn diagram is interesting, but my mind went to food, like @Firebird's. Except my analogy was a menu from a pizza place. You can order one of the restaurant's combos, or you can choose your toppings à la carte. Patriarchy? KJV or ESV? Quiver full or no? Skirts only, or simply "modest"? So many choices!

On the topic of transgender children, can anyone point me to an article or a website that talks about minor children having gender confirmation surgery? Everything I've read talks about the option of using hormone suppressing drugs, and then hormone treatments for minors, but no surgery until kids are at least 18 years old. I realize that Jazz Jennings won't be 18 until October, but her's is the first instance of a minor having surgery that I'm personally aware of. 

[nelliebelle1197]

On 6/30/2018 at 3:28 PM, nickelodeon said:

I agree that honest dialogue is crucial! A lot of longtime feminists are still figuring out their stance on this subject, and conversations, especially between cis and trans feminists, are really important. I'm sympathetic to problems like the one @Mama Mia raises about expanding feminism to account for trans women's experiences while continuing to advocate for things like reproductive rights  - because if feminists don't, who the fuck will? That's tricky stuff. Other issues, like the endless goalpost-moving over who is "woman enough" for feminism (not if you're pre-op! not if you transitioned in your 20s! not if you're femme! not if your parents helped you transition!) read as simple prejudice.

I realize that the TERF has become a kind of internet boogeyman lately, but I really have been surprised by the discriminatory things I've heard feminists that I usually admire say. :\

I need some help working out something. I went to a women's college and the last few years, a number of FtoM students have been welcomed. I am not sure how to process this and stay true to my values. I could care less if someone is transitioning. But I just have an issue with men as students, even if the men currently present as women. I would not have the same issue with a MtoF student. But I do not think the school would welcome that. I would not necessarily want someone who identifies as a straight male in my dorm even if he has giant breasts and no penis. A woman who still has a penis - no problem. I have a really hard time working this out and I am scared to talk to fellow alumna/friends who support it. I just feel a man is a man and the environment is built specifically to be safe - emotionally and intellectually - for women. Help.

[Palimpsest]

@nelliebelle1197 , I too see reasons for women's colleges to stay women's colleges only.  It is a really tricky issue, and one that Smith College dealt with (controversially) quite recently.  FTR, I see Smith as a leader in academia about acceptance of gender identity and expression and I think they handled it as well as possible.

If you search you can find many arguments on either side, and Smith leadership might be open to discussion as to why they made their decision.  Here is the relevant part of their new policy (my underlining):

Quote

 

Are trans women eligible for admission to Smith?

Applicants who were assigned male at birth but identify as women are eligible for admission.

How does Smith decide who is a woman?

It doesn’t. With regard to admission, Smith relies upon the information provided by each student applicant. In other contexts, different definitions and requirements may apply. For example, the definition of a woman for NCAA competition may differ from the definition of a woman for purposes of admission to Smith or other single-sex colleges.

What is required of trans women applicants to be considered for admission?

Smith’s policy is one of self-identification. The college considers for admission any applicant whose birth certificate reflects their gender as female, or who identifies as female.

Are trans men eligible for admission?

Smith does not accept applications from men. Those assigned female at birth but who now identify as male are not eligible for admission.

Are applicants who identify as genderqueer or gender non-binary eligible for admission?

Our focus on women’s education means that we consider for admission applicants who identify as women and who seek entrance into a community dedicated to women’s education.

Can a transgender student receive a Smith degree?

Once admitted, any student who completes the college’s graduation requirements—regardless of gender identity, gender expression or sexual orientation—will be awarded a Smith degree.

 

https://www.smith.edu/about-smith/diversity/gender-identity-expression

So basically applicants must identify as female to be accepted at Smith.  However, FtoM students are not booted out after acceptance.

[SassyPants]

This would be my "ideal" breaking away indication...stepping away from the Tevveee money, pursuing an education, establishing a career that corresponds to skill levels and education, and fading away into the sunset never again to be publicly heard from or about. 

Adults leading their own lives, the way they prefer, and supporting themselves.

Finally, not interfering with the lives of others-

The Duggars need to learn how to respectfully live in and navigate the circumstances of the real world.

[Greendoor]

Maybe that's what Jana is looking for, SassyPants.

[SassyPants]

7 hours ago, JordynDarby5 said:

Derick and TLC in the same room together. Now that sounds like something that would be fun to watch. Derick who can't keep his mouth shut, and TLC who he's tried to claim he and Jill "volunteered", wouldn't pay for his kid's hospital bill, who's shot off his mouth about other TLC shows oh yeah and who fired him. 

Poor Derick. I'm sure that he is PO'd that he has not been able to get away with the crap that JB Duggar has seemingly perfected over the years (grifting and scamming). I'm sure asking TLC to foot the hospital bill was prompted by El Cheapo himself, the holder of the purse strings.

1 minute ago, Greendoor said:

Maybe that's what Jana is looking for, SassyPants.

To me Jana has always presented as patient and cautious. I think she took in her family's life and has decided that she is not interested in that following that particular road. 

[Pecansforeveryone]

18 minutes ago, SassyPants said:

Poor Derick. I'm sure that he is PO'd that he has not been able to get away with the crap that JB Duggar has seemingly perfected over the years (grifting and scamming). I'm sure asking TLC to foot the hospital bill was prompted by El Cheapo himself, the holder of the purse strings.

To me Jana has always presented as patient and cautious. I think she took in her family's life and has decided that she is not interested in that following that particular road. 

To me, the money and fame from TLC have been bad for all the Duggars. It keeps them living in a privileged bubble. It reinforces the mindset that they are special and superior to others, and that God is blessing them for being "godly." It can delay them asking hard question. Asking the hard questions and genuinely interacting with others without immediately talking over them is one hugely vital step. I've seen Ben and Jill hold their peace for 5 minutes and just "be" on one occasion. Jeremy, meh, I'm still burned about his disingenous, cowardly posting about the "faith" of Christopher Hitchens. 

[SamiKatz]

2 hours ago, SassyPants said:

Poor Derick. I'm sure that he is PO'd that he has not been able to get away with the crap that JB Duggar has seemingly perfected over the years (grifting and scamming). I'm sure asking TLC to foot the hospital bill was prompted by El Cheapo himself, the holder of the purse strings.

 

Apparently he should be taking lessons from Jill Rodriguez, not JB.  She seems to have the magic touch when it comes to grifting.

[SassyPants]

1 minute ago, SamiKatz said:

Apparently he should be taking lessons from Jill Rodriguez, not JB.  She seems to have the magic touch when it comes to grifting.

DD take lessons from a female? Not likely-LOL

[VineHeart137]

Keeping Up With Fundies on Tumblr has photos of Jill and Joy out to lunch with a couple of the Perez sisters. Joy looks fantastic and Jill is wearing shorts. Mainly mentioning it because the account they got the pics from is private and I'm curious about the rules on sharing here on FJ? Can anyone clarify?

[Mama Mia]

4 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

@nelliebelle1197 , I too see reasons for women's colleges to stay women's colleges only.  It is a really tricky issue, and one that Smith College dealt with (controversially) quite recently.  FTR, I see Smith as a leader in academia about acceptance of gender identity and expression and I think they handled it as well as possible.

If you search you can find many arguments on either side, and Smith leadership might be open to discussion as to why they made their decision.  Here is the relevant part of their new policy (my underlining):

https://www.smith.edu/about-smith/diversity/gender-identity-expression

So basically applicants must identify as female to be accepted at Smith.  However, FtoM students are not booted out after acceptance.

My objection to this is that it seems, lately, to become common for the exact same things people complain about the patriarchy to just be replicated in traditionally women’s sphere’s, with MtoF taking over, talking over and centering themselves - and pushing out the young women who choose women only spaces to avoid that. 

Not all MtoF, of course. And the extremes always get more notice. But self-identification as a stand alone criteria is problematic, to me. Elite Women’s Colleges ( and for that matter, set-aside spots for women and POC ) exist to help ameliorate some of the social constraints of being born and raised female in our male led society. 

[beepy13]

54 minutes ago, VineHeart137 said:

Keeping Up With Fundies on Tumblr has photos of Jill and Joy out to lunch with a couple of the Perez sisters. Joy looks fantastic and Jill is wearing shorts. Mainly mentioning it because the account they got the pics from is private and I'm curious about the rules on sharing here on FJ? Can anyone clarify?

Probably not good to share directly, but it's pretty easy to find via Google if one is interested.

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, VineHeart137 said:

Keeping Up With Fundies on Tumblr has photos of Jill and Joy out to lunch with a couple of the Perez sisters. Joy looks fantastic and Jill is wearing shorts. Mainly mentioning it because the account they got the pics from is private and I'm curious about the rules on sharing here on FJ? Can anyone clarify?

You can't post pictures, or screenshots, or copy verbatim from private accounts.  You can provide a link to Keeping Up With Fundies (preferably people can google) or paraphrase the information.

From the rules: https://www.freejinger.org/faq/8-guidelines/#elQuestion-106

Quote

No private information allowed

Do NOT post private information about individuals. Private information includes, but is not limited to,  information gleaned from private Facebook pages, private message boards or forums, invite only blogs and other private sources, UNLESS the individual in question verifies with an admin or media relations that posting such info here is ok. That is the only way such info is allowed. Unverified third party posting is absolutely unacceptable in all circumstances.

Information from mailing lists and newsletters that anyone can sign up to receive without approval/vetting from the author can be posted.

Paraphrasing is allowed. If you are facebook friends with a fundie, you can say “I saw so and so is pregnant.” You cannot share pictures and a birth story.  Describing an in-person meeting you had with a person we follow is fine. It is a first person narrative of your own experience. A member posting Facebook conversation with a Fundie in which they are peppering the fundie with questions is not the same. There is no way of knowing if the person answering on the other end is even really the fundie, for example. It is not the same type of experience.

 

[Palimpsest]

1 hour ago, Mama Mia said:

My objection to this is that it seems, lately, to become common for the exact same things people complain about the patriarchy to just be replicated in traditionally women’s sphere’s, with MtoF taking over, talking over and centering themselves - and pushing out the young women who choose women only spaces to avoid that. 

Not all MtoF, of course. And the extremes always get more notice. But self-identification as a stand alone criteria is problematic, to me. Elite Women’s Colleges ( and for that matter, set-aside spots for women and POC ) exist to help ameliorate some of the social constraints of being born and raised female in our male led society. 

Honestly, although it seems that there are more transgender people around than we used to know, I still don't think that a) there are enough of them to take over bastions of femininity like women's only colleges, and b) that if this even occurred there wouldn't be some push back.  MtoF women will still be in the vast minority at Smith and will face discrimination in the work place too.

And there is push back.  Against gender neutral language and at formerly women's only colleges who are now "dominated" by trans people and people who identify as male.

This is complicated, so I will give an example of what I consider to be women behaving very badly towards transgender people.  Perhaps not one that you expect.  The abstain movement against Timothy at Wellesley College.  This article mentions some of the issues @Mama Mia brings up.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/magazine/when-women-become-men-at-wellesley-college.html

I expected some annoyance here because Smith doesn't want to accept applicants who are gender fluid or non-binary, not this.  I think it was fair for them to focus on people who identify as women at a women's college.  So sue me.

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Palimpsest said:

Honestly, although it seems that there are more transgender people around than we used to know, I still don't think that a) there are enough of them to take over bastions of femininity like women's only colleges, and b) that if this even occurred there wouldn't be some push back.  MtoF women will still be in the vast minority at Smith and will face discrimination in the work place too.

And there is push back.  Against gender neutral language and at formerly women's only colleges who are now "dominated" by trans people and people who identify as male.

This is complicated, so I will give an example of what I consider to be women behaving very badly towards transgender people.  Perhaps not one that you expect.  The abstain movement against Timothy at Wellesley College.  This article mentions some of the issues @Mama Mia brings up.

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/19/magazine/when-women-become-men-at-wellesley-college.html

I expected some annoyance here because Smith doesn't want to accept applicants who are gender fluid or non-binary, not this.  I think it was fair for them to focus on people who identify as women at a women's college.  So sue me.

Very interesting article, thanks for sharing it. I think it bring up some interesting points though — what is the purpose of women only institutions? I thought it was to give women a place to build leadership, sisterhood, etc ( now called siblinghood according to the story ). To generally celebrate and support the full range of women. If “woman” isn’t biology, what is it ? 

What led me down this particular internet rabbit hole was the experience of a friends daughter in Girl Scouts. A great organization that builds young women leaders and encourages interests in everything from camping to cooking to aerospace to childcare to art to business development .  In short, they let girls be people. In this troop  a new member joined. This child was born male and is currently identifying as non-binary female. The child’s mother was uncomfortable at all the mentions of “Girl” in “Girl Scouts” and wanted them avoided.   That sounds made up. It is not. 

[Jinder Roles]

Honestly, trans women and gender non-conforming people (who may even sometimes use feminine pronouns) aren't 'dominating' conversation IMO, they just want more inclusivity. These people generally fight to be recognized and humanized. Their issues are trivialized and I think people often mistake bringing these issues into mainstream as dominating. It's not. They are a minority, whose rights, safety and very existence are constantly being threatened. Way more than the average cis white female (which is what mostly what these female colleges cater to). 

Being a woman isn't purely biological. Gender is a social construct...and a complicated one at that. Trans and non-binary individuals would be (generally speaking) less safe in male-dominated spaces. I also think some choose all-women colleges because of the history of commitment to feminism and choosing to align themselves with academia catering to a historically discriminated group. If you are familiar with third-wave or intersectional feminism, that's like the entire point. 

That's just my two cents. 

Oh, and in my own experience, the trans and non binary people I've known fight for not only their issues, but a lot of the issues facing cis-gender women. With a fiery passion. They're generally very thoughtful and critical. 

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, Jinder Roles said:

Honestly, trans women and gender non-conforming people (who may even sometimes use feminine pronouns) aren't 'dominating' conversation IMO, they just want more inclusivity. These people generally fight to be recognized and humanized. Their issues are trivialized and I think people often mistake bringing these issues into mainstream as dominating. It's not. They are a minority, whose rights, safety and very existence are constantly being threatened. Way more than the average cis white female (which is what mostly what these female colleges cater to). 

Being a woman isn't purely biological. Gender is a social construct...and a complicated one at that. Trans and non-binary individuals would be (generally speaking) less safe in male-dominated spaces. I also think some choose all-women colleges because of the history of commitment to feminism and choosing to align themselves with academia catering to a historically discriminated group. If you are familiar with third-wave or intersectional feminism, that's like the entire point. 

That's just my two cents. 

Oh, and in my own experience, the trans and non binary people I've known fight for not only their issues, but a lot of the issues facing cis-gender women. With a fiery passion. They're generally very thoughtful and critical. 

Being a women might not be purely biological, but for many (most) women it is at least partly biological.  Women's colleges or Girl Scouts are in existence in part to provide a safe space for biological women (females, however we want to put it).  Its great that others also feel safe in those spaces, but what about if that makes the biological women feel less safe/less able to discuss what it was like to grow up as a biological girl?  How do you balance that?  Particularly for schools, women's schools are often considered a good thing because men/boys are taught to be more forceful in their discussions or in asking questions and tend to push out women/girls.  Arn't MtoF women also taught to be more forceful in those situations?  Perhaps even more so as teachers, perhaps without knowing it, try to make them more like "boys?"  How do we deal with that?  And finally, I do think the question of perpetuating gender stereotypes can become a problem, particularly at younger ages.  I'm not saying I have an answer, just that its not an easy answer.  

[Palimpsest]

16 minutes ago, Jinder Roles said:

Oh, and in my own experience, the trans and non binary people I've known fight for not only their issues, but a lot of the issues facing cis-gender women. With a fiery passion. They're generally very thoughtful and critical. 

Thank you.  That is also my experience.  I snipped but thanks for your whole post, with which I agree.  I was working on a response but you put it far more clearly than I could.

And I'm cis-female and straight, for the record.  I don't see gender as purely biological but as a social construct too.  But I have still struggled to understand the issues faced by  trans and non binary people.  I hope I am getting there.

I also hope that people understand that this is a very complex issue and that well meaning people will struggle to try to understand it.