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Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders


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8 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'm curious when most people would be happy that a Duggar has "left."  If they have hateful beliefs but for non religious reasons?  If they use bc?  If they have educated kids?  If they accept a gay kid?  What would it take for most of us to stop reminding one another of their hateful beliefs?

It would take them no longer holding to those hateful beliefs.

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3 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

It would take them no longer holding to those hateful beliefs.

OK, which ones?  Would you give them credit for losing some?  If they were pro GLBT rights but anti abortion?  If they were pro choice but anti social safety net?  

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Just now, justoneoftwo said:

I'm curious when most people would be happy that a Duggar has "left."  If they have hateful beliefs but for non religious reasons?  If they use bc?  If they have educated kids?  If they accept a gay kid?  What would it take for most of us to stop reminding one another of their hateful beliefs?

When they stop holding hateful beliefs I'll stop bringing them up.

Just now, justoneoftwo said:

OK, which ones?  Would you give them credit for losing some?  If they were pro GLBT rights but anti abortion?  If they were pro choice but anti social safety net?  

Why would we be quiet about hateful beliefs? Mention when they drop some but never forget the dangerous ones. 

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Can't find the quote, but the statement that the FLDS didn't/doesn't want anything to do with the government beyond bleeding the beast was incorrect. They do find most people evil, and hate the government, but they also knew how to use it to their advantage. They spent decades controlling the police force and schools in certain parts of the Utah and Arizona: http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2460532&itype=CMSID

While the FLDS define themselves as fundamentalist, there are other fundamentalist strains of LDS, as well, which I would consider fundie. Having literature that states that the "one mighty and strong" man is on his way to save the day and that everyone can potentially personally "hear" God means that a lot of men have considered themselves the newest savior, and found others to agree. The LeBarons would qualify as a fundamentalist cult -- they all deeply believed in their religious interpretations and their leader, to the extent that they fled with him to Mexico and beyond. Some even killed for him, and their cult studied Mormon texts.The Allreds were pretty fundie, as well, adhering strictly to the peculiar interpretation of LDS texts, according to their leaders. 

 I agree that a lot of other strict sects, such as the Amish, also qualify as fundamentalists. Jehovah's Witnesses allowing people to die by foregoing necessary medical care? Fundie choice, too, just different flavors and reasons.  

A few things that I consider fundamentalist traits: control over daily life based on one interpretation of a religious text; a focus on male power and female subordination; control over women's education; a marked interest in modest apparel as a visual indication of group adherence; ONE interpretation of their holy book/s, with prominent male leaders doing all the interpretation; group-think; early start to religious indoctrination of children; often a focus on humankind's innately sinful nature; various levels of abuse being permitted for the sake of continuing forcing the religion on those with questions.  When a fundamentalist sect reaches a critical mass in their population, they then seek to use the government (or just outright violence) to enforce compliance of their beliefs on others. 

I like that Urban Dictionary definition, especially because it reminds us that fundamentalism isn't strictly related to Christianity and/or the USA. Just a few examples -- Orthodox Jewish folks wield a lot of political power in Israel and often use that power to further subjugate Muslims. Fundamentalist Buddhists can be violent, using their superior numbers to intimidate, harass, and harm Muslims in Southeast Asia: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/05/01/asian-buddhism-fundamentalism_n_5248880.html We all know about Boko Haram in Nigeria, and IS in Syria. Fundamentalism isn't just about how Christians behave; we've got a worldwide phenomenon here. It's about how one view of religion can dominate lives to the degree where the fundamentalist group seeks to control others, either through legal maneuvers or violence. 

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39 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'm curious when most people would be happy that a Duggar has "left."  If they have hateful beliefs but for non religious reasons?  If they use bc?  If they have educated kids?  If they accept a gay kid?  What would it take for most of us to stop reminding one another of their hateful beliefs?

Not until they prove their renunciation by trampling upon an image of Christ and offering sacrifices to the emperor, OBVIOUSLY

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Maybe I"m alone, but if they came out in favor of one type of rights, I would be really pleased and in that moment probably not focus on where they were still being hateful.  Not forever, but I would give them a moment of recognition.  I also will say they could leave and still have some of these beliefs (many "main stream" people hate other groups), it wouldn't make me like them, but I would celebrate even that step.  

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I too would be pleased if they dropped some beliefs, but I'm not going to give them a pass if the still believe hate and oppression. 

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1 hour ago, louisa05 said:

I feel like some people here would not say they left if a pair of Duggars danced down a street at Pride carrying rainbow flags and wearing nothing but sandwich signs that said "Bernie Sanders for President" on one side and "Fuck Christianity" on the other. Someone would pop up to say "But they've never said they support abortion rights". 

And I say to this nonsense - you seriously lack basic reading comprehension.

And enjoy being irritatingly divisive.

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Let me know when one of them renunciates one of their hateful beliefs and I’ll celebrate it. The issue is not that we all just want to blindly keep hating the Duggars; the issue is that they’re not doing anything to indicate any significant change in belief whatsoever.

When Ben Seewald posted about not voting for Trump, he got A LOT of praise here. It was acknowledged as a positive thing. Jinger wearing pants or Jill piercing her nose says exactly nothing about whether they still hold hateful beliefs, but most of us still say things like ‘wow, that’s great, good for her’ even if we also point out that it’s ultimately fairly meaningless on its own.

Other than that, I don’t understand what positive changes any of these people have made that I’m supposed to be celebrating, and if they make 50 awesome changes but still hold one bigoted, oppressive viewpoint, then yeah, I’m definitely still going to criticize them for that. I’m not here to be a fundie cheerleader. “You go Jinger! Way to not get pregnant for 10 months, and you’re rocking that tank top, girl! Don’t worry, we don’t have to talk about the other stuff...” 

Trust me, if one of these people ever truly seems to be making a major break from fundamentalism/the Psycho Republican Jesus cult, it will be obvious and I will acknowledge it.

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So, now that Derrick is a top story on Daily Mail again for his newest attack on Jazz, has Jill posted anything to divert attention from her hubby? Maybe a new “recipe” or a kid screaming after falling? 

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6 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

And please don't anyone tell me that non-accredited Christian colleges that accept female students getting their Mrs degrees aren't both Fundie and peopled with Fundies.  Like Pensacola Christian College isn't Fundie! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensacola_Christian_College

:laughing-rolling:

Or Bob Jones!

58 minutes ago, singsingsing said:

Let me know when one of them renunciates one of their hateful beliefs and I’ll celebrate it. The issue is not that we all just want to blindly keep hating the Duggars; the issue is that they’re not doing anything to indicate any significant change in belief whatsoever.

 

AND FFS,

FREE JINGER IS NOT A DUGGAR FAN SITE. And it never will be.

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3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

Judaism and most of mainline Christianity, for example, assumes that the Proverbs 31 woman is a portrait of what a Godly woman might be like made into a piece of poetry. Those who approach the Bible literally believe she was a real person. 

Minor point here, but I've never met a literalist who believed that. The Proverbs 31 woman was seen as an example of a Godly woman, not necessarily a real person. And I've met tons of people who believe the universe was created in six days and the snake really talked. They were still capable of recognizing some allegories, lol. 

There are some people on FJ who don't think fundies will change. Others, like me, hold out hope. 

And I find it hilarious to imagine D'Wreck clicking on FJ to find out what we're saying about him, and having to wade through pages of theological, historical, and cultural discusson of fundamentalism. He could learn something here! We could be the non-accredited Academy of FJ!

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2 hours ago, justoneoftwo said:

I'm curious when most people would be happy that a Duggar has "left."  If they have hateful beliefs but for non religious reasons?  If they use bc?  If they have educated kids?  If they accept a gay kid?  What would it take for most of us to stop reminding one another of their hateful beliefs?

I’d be happy if they stopped having hateful beliefs and stopped trying to impose them on everyone else. 

I’m more than willing to give credit where it’s due. I’ve stated my praise for Ben not supporting Trump and for at least attempting to broaden his views concerning race in America. Those are both great things and he honestly deserves credit... but that doesn’t mean I’m going to ignore his hateful views on Catholics, the LGBTQ+ community, abortion, etc. He doesn’t get a pass on those for even a second just because he did something else that was good. 

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3 hours ago, louisa05 said:

I suspect that the new obsession with gender roles, "biblical womanhood,"  submission and all that has a lot to do with the growing acceptance of  LGBT people particularly among the Millennial generation. Gender issues in terms of roles and submission was barely on their radar when I got to Christian school in 1994 and the issue of homosexuality was not either. By the time I left in 2000, the gender issue was creeping in and many were growing completely obsessed by LGBT issues. 

While I'm very accepting of LGBT as opposed to a lot of my same aged cohort, I still have some way to go to be as totally accepting as my children.

 

I would never disown any of my children for their sexuality or gender expressions and I struggle to understand why any parent could. 

However, I've been the first adult several of my children's friends have told about how they feel. And my children know I will always support them and should a some-one they know be asked to leave home for any reason regarding gender or sexuality, I would take them in until they had another secure place to stay.

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58 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

There are some people on FJ who don't think fundies will change.

Seriously.  I also ask you - who are these people?  Name the names.

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21 minutes ago, Seahorse Wrangler said:

While I'm very accepting of LGBT as opposed to a lot of my same aged cohort, I still have some way to go to be as totally accepting as my children.

 

I would never disown any of my children for their sexuality or gender expressions and I struggle to understand why any parent could. 

However, I've been the first adult several of my children's friends have told about how they feel. And my children know I will always support them and should a some-one they know be asked to leave home for any reason regarding gender or sexuality, I would take them in until they had another secure place to stay.

May I ask where the line is drawn between “very accepting compared” to not being “totally accepting”? // what exactly does that mean?

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6 minutes ago, Illmarryyoujana said:

May I ask where the line is drawn between “very accepting compared” to not being “totally accepting”? // what exactly does that mean?

For me personally..and that's the only person I can say for sure..

when I was my children's ages (13-20) I was living in the north east of England (1970-1980's). At that time it was man works, woman at home. You went to school, got married , had kids. If you were lucky, university.

Then there were those who were not like "Us" . the "Dykes" the "Nancyboys" and so on and so forth. Figures of disdain, of mockery. That was the mind-set I grew up with.

As I grew up, I realised that those people who didn't meet the expectations I had imbibed without thought weren't perverted or evil . I had to re-evaluate my thinking and react accordingly. I still have to check my responses . My sister ,who is 5 years older than me, and her children still hold the same anti-LGBT mindset that I have tried and am still trying at times to over-come.

We tried to bring up our children to see that sexuality, religion , skin colour were not relevant. Especially as we immigrated to a place where we were also a minority. Oh..We have lots of privilege since it is only a matter of language.

 

TL:DR..I was brought up to be biased. I'm trying to over-come it. My children seem to be able to accept people without reservations.

 

 

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"But luckily they're brainwashed enough not to take Jill up on that offer. And even if they weren't, there's always familiar pressure as a back-up mechanism. Like we're EVER going to see a kid in their household choosing to do something different, even about the smallest thing" Coy Koi re: Rodrigues family

"As for poor Nurie...I wish someone could do something good for her and get her out of that hellhole.  Unfortunately, Jill would find a way for that something good to benefit HER and not Nurie (or, for that matter, any of those poor other children).  Not only that, but I suspect Nurie is so brainwashed that even if anyone succeeded in getting her out, she'd probably be so guilt-wracked that she'd insist on going back.  This goes for Kaylee, too.  It goes for all the kids, come to think of it." pamplemousse re: Rodrigues family

"Look at Mary: fresh faced, kind looking, cute young woman with some interests (sewing, drawing), nothing lacking materially, but her parents have fucked her up so damn badly she'll be recovering the rest of her life if she ever tries to break free (being so brainwashed it probably never occurs to her to break free)" LurkerOverThePond re: Mary Maxwell

"Except... he won't be able think outside his brainwashed "old, black book" box. Mommy will see to that. Timothy will have to wear a KJV tinfoil hat whilst doing his bible classes." Chickenettiluvr re: Timothy Rodrigues

 "Between penguins, willing to be treated as teenagers while adults (and more importantly, thinking it's OK), and insane levels of parental focus IMHO they are all doomed to living out their lives this way unless something really gives." nokidsmom re: Arndt manboys

"All their offspring are doomed. If they don't rebel, they will be horrible members of society just like their parents" fundiefan re: Anderson family

Forgive me, people from whom I snatched quotes!  @Palimpsest wanted names! :my_biggrin: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding or reading too much into some of these? But this is what I'm talking about: an undertone of "won't change, can't change" that sometimes seems to appear in posts. I don't think I'm imagining it...but I've been mistaken before. 

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9 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

Forgive me, people from whom I snatched quotes!  @Palimpsest wanted names! :my_biggrin: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding or reading too much into some of these? But this is what I'm talking about: an undertone of "won't change, can't change" that sometimes seems to appear in posts. I don't think I'm imagining it...but I've been mistaken before. 

Thank you.  I really didn't mean you to have to work so hard. :D

I do think you are reading too much into those quotes.  They are not so much "things will never change" as they are "I've been watching these families for so long and it breaks my heart because nothing seems to change."

The Rodrigues, Andersons, Arndts, and Maxwell daughters are our toughest Fundies to observe in so many ways.  There is so little change that it breaks our hearts - and we may sometimes feel that it is hopeless.  We also vent occasionally and that must sound like we despair..

But I can tell you that Free Jinger, individually and collectively, genuinely rejoices when we see real change.  And it does happen.  We rejoice whole-heartedly when an Alecia Faith Pennington or a Cynthia Jeub breaks free.  And so many others do break free too!

We have also had a few much lower profile former Fundies come here.  Sometimes to thank us for our tough love.  I don't think we should ever flatter ourselves that we help - all the survivors escape by themselves with their own courage.

We have been told (occasionally) that our snark is sort of useful for survivors.

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24 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Thank you.  I really didn't mean you to have to work so hard. :D

I do think you are reading too much into those quotes.  They are not so much "things will never change" as they are "I've been watching these families for so long and it breaks my heart because nothing seems to change."

The Rodrigues, Andersons, Arndts, and Maxwell daughters are our toughest Fundies to observe in so many ways.  There is so little change that it breaks our hearts - and we may sometimes feel that it is hopeless.  We also vent occasionally and that must sound like we despair..

But I can tell you that Free Jinger, individually and collectively, genuinely rejoices when we see real change.  And it does happen.  We rejoice whole-heartedly when an Alecia Faith Pennington or a Cynthia Jeub breaks free.  And so many others do break free too!

We have also had a few much lower profile former Fundies come here.  Sometimes to thank us for our tough love.  I don't think we should ever flatter ourselves that we help - all the survivors escape by themselves with their own courage.

We have been told (occasionally) that our snark is sort of useful for survivors.

Speaking of the Pennington’s: y’all should check out Hope Pennington’s IG. She has made such a transformation that I follow and find wonderful and am happy for her. Alecia too,  but she is more private in what she posts. 

Kudos to Hope and Alecia!!! 

@theepicplace

@aleciafaithh

Their sister Patience also just got engaged to a hip fundie from Kansas.

@patiencepennington 

The oldest Grace is pregnant and due soon. @jgracetheauthor

I’m here for all of it. The Pennington kids are a fascinating bunch (the girls are more prominent on social media) 

And the best part?! Lisa barely comments on any of it, a few updates here and there, and she completely never mentions Hope and Alecia, likely due to them telling her explicitly not to do so, and their “ungodly” lifestyles, (see IGs with Alecia and her tattoos, and at Electric Forest not modestly dressed and Hope declaring herself not only a lesbian, but curious about polyamory!!!) it’s fantastic, I am so happy for them living their best lives as their true selves out from under the umbrella of “Mama Pennington” 

its interesting because both Grace and Patience seems so devout still. I’m sure in her tiny mind, this is the “truth” she hangs onto, even when 2 other daughters went such a different direction. 

Apologies, I realize all of this should be on a different thread! 

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On 6/28/2018 at 9:24 PM, Lisafer said:

I never thought about the fact that there are actual Duggar defenders on here, lol. (Not saying anyone in the current conversation is). That would explain some puzzling reactions to some of my posts in the Duggar threads. Whenever I'm in Quiver Full of Duggars the vibe is a little different from Quiver Full of Snark. 

AARGH! Some of us who came to FJ because of the Duggars stayed out of those threads because of what you say here. It's annoying as fuck. It's a bit better now, but it can be dicey to criticize the "girls" especially.

Do any of you know of any fundies, however defined, who came out for Bernie or Hilary? None of those Republican choices were worth shit.

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2 hours ago, Lisafer said:

"But luckily they're brainwashed enough not to take Jill up on that offer. And even if they weren't, there's always familiar pressure as a back-up mechanism. Like we're EVER going to see a kid in their household choosing to do something different, even about the smallest thing" Coy Koi re: Rodrigues family

"As for poor Nurie...I wish someone could do something good for her and get her out of that hellhole.  Unfortunately, Jill would find a way for that something good to benefit HER and not Nurie (or, for that matter, any of those poor other children).  Not only that, but I suspect Nurie is so brainwashed that even if anyone succeeded in getting her out, she'd probably be so guilt-wracked that she'd insist on going back.  This goes for Kaylee, too.  It goes for all the kids, come to think of it." pamplemousse re: Rodrigues family

"Look at Mary: fresh faced, kind looking, cute young woman with some interests (sewing, drawing), nothing lacking materially, but her parents have fucked her up so damn badly she'll be recovering the rest of her life if she ever tries to break free (being so brainwashed it probably never occurs to her to break free)" LurkerOverThePond re: Mary Maxwell

"Except... he won't be able think outside his brainwashed "old, black book" box. Mommy will see to that. Timothy will have to wear a KJV tinfoil hat whilst doing his bible classes." Chickenettiluvr re: Timothy Rodrigues

 "Between penguins, willing to be treated as teenagers while adults (and more importantly, thinking it's OK), and insane levels of parental focus IMHO they are all doomed to living out their lives this way unless something really gives." nokidsmom re: Arndt manboys

"All their offspring are doomed. If they don't rebel, they will be horrible members of society just like their parents" fundiefan re: Anderson family

Forgive me, people from whom I snatched quotes!  @Palimpsest wanted names! :my_biggrin: Perhaps I'm misunderstanding or reading too much into some of these? But this is what I'm talking about: an undertone of "won't change, can't change" that sometimes seems to appear in posts. I don't think I'm imagining it...but I've been mistaken before. 

Tagging the people you quoted @Coy Koi @pamplemousse @LurkerOverThePond @ChickenettiLuvr @nokidsmom @fundiefan, so they can reply if they want.

Anyway I agree with @Palimpsest, the above quotes seem more a reminder of the improbability of a sudden change in those households, a let's not delude ourselves into thinking they'll make a sudden 180 so soon. If you consider how many years some FJrs have been following some of those families and what little changes they witnessed, it's a very justifiable position.

Otoh the Shupes jave gone some miles towards change and even if it's not clear how much of their beliefs have changed, FJers have been mostly thrilled for the new opportunities that the changes are offering to the kids.

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