Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[AlwaysExcited]

Derrick, if (when?) you read here, read very, very carefully. This thread can teach you a lot: about fundamentalism, history, trans people and, most importantly, how to have a discussion and communicate, and not come off as an obsessed creep. 

[Beermeet]

10 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m in no way erasing anything. I specifically stated that I don’t know how else the organization could handle the issue at the present moment - I think the CIAC organization is doing the best they can given the circumstances. Trans rights are still in their infancy and there are going to be a lot of growing pains as the Trans community continues to fight for inclusion and acceptance. 

It is unfair, but I truly don’t think a student vote would do any good and could do a lot more harm to be honest. 

Gender isn’t tied to sexuality. It’s a completely separate aspect of someone’s identity. So, for instance, my brother is bisexual. He was bisexual prior to coming out as Transgender (FTM) and he remained bisexual after coming out as Transgender. How he identifies in regards to gender doesn’t have an impact on who he is romantically attracted to. 

Its a very difficult concept for some people to grasp because they’ve never had to think about it or experience a struggle with who they are. I think it’s good you’re at least making an attempt to ask questions and try to understand though. 

I’m probably misinterpreting this (sorry!), but Trans people have always existed. It’s just that society hasn’t been willing to acknowledge their presence until now. That’s why no one was talking about it when you were growing up, not because it wasn’t happening. 

To the last:  Yes, of course.  I don't think there is much new in human self identity and sexuality.   It has always been.  In my life, I was a child in the 70's and graduated in 1991.  During that time, no talk of trans athletes for sure at my school.  I became more aware in college of the various things I missed in the 70's LGBT wise.  It was beyond difficult to be openly gay in my area.  Now, very different with a LBGT+ club even.  My older relatives have even chilled way out on the subject.  Progress.  I'm totally down for civil rights, live and let live as long as you don't hurt anyone and really don't need to sort out much.  I like thinking through things to understand better.  I'm agreeing with you and saying it makes me think when it comes to the sports part like in the article.  

[Beermeet]

14 hours ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

It doesn't immediately remind me of Bro. Gary unless it's preceded by "Okay". 

Sis WWJCD

Bro. Gary is yet another reason why *folks* is getting ruined!

[Sky with diamonds]

No change in Derick. What next will cause him to rant on Twitter? 

[Lurky]

@nelliebelle1197 You asked earlier about trans men in women's colleges, and here's my take on it:

While some people have always known they're trans, or realised in their teens, a lot of people don't necessarily realise what's going on with themselves until later.  And then there are people who are in massive denial, or trying to change themselves, or don't have the ways to articulate it, so there are a ton of reasons why some trans men might not realise they're trans until they're in college - or might not feel safe enough to come out.

To say "no trans men in women's colleges" would mean that someone who signed up to college, but then discovered/was able to accept/was able to come out as trans mid-way through would then have to leave their university course, with all the financial and academic hardships that would ensue.  It would be a huge punishment, at a time when they ideally should be getting extra support, especially if they have transphobic parents (the scenario of someone being kicked out of uni and not being able to go home/having financial support cut off so couldn't transfer to another college etc is not hard to imagine).  And any kind of rule about trans men being only allowed if they didn't know they were trans on application would be impossible to police, and would also run into a ton of issues about people who couldn't be out to their parents, couldn't start medically transitioning etc etc, and wanted to be in a (stereotypically) safer/more understanding environment.

(Bottom line:  banning trans men wouldn't stop them going to a women's college - there would still be trans men there, as there always have been, just having to hide deep in the closet, hoping they don't get caught)

[HarleyQuinn]

11 hours ago, Sky with diamonds said:

No change in Derick. What next will cause him to rant on Twitter? 

Probably Jazz making a full recovery. 

[BachelorToTheRapture]

22 hours ago, Alisamer said:

I read a book a while back about women sailors, primarily in the age of piracy, and there were TONS of women who took male names and went to sea. I'm sure some were just making their way the best they could, or traveling the only way they could, but some were certainly trans as well. Trans people have always, always existed.

I also use the word "dude" as a gender neutral term, and have for many years. (And if I ever say something that offends someone here please tell me because that is not my intent!)

While I'm sure that some of them were trans, I believe that some of them were also women who just wanted to live a lifestyle that a woman couldn't openly live.

[katilac]

On 6/30/2018 at 11:57 AM, precious blessing said:

 

however, i firmly believe no matter how liberal these people could become, they will never give up the baybeez.  

2

I disagree. I think the Quiverful and large family trend (not all are QF) will fade strongly in the next ten years. 

Why? One, I do think it's trendy in the worst sense of the word. Just like in the Christian adoption movement, I think many people are making decisions, even ones as important as these, to feel like they are a part of something popular, to feel important, and to feel like they are similar to people they admire. Two, many of the people having large families do not come from large families themselves, and they have no idea what they are getting themselves into, lol. They look at M is for Mama and other blogs, and think they are going to have all these kids but still be hip and fun and run small businesses and have time for themselves. That is not reality for most people, but, by the time they realize that, they might be four or five or six kids into the game. Some people love babies and little kids, and, if you have the kind that sleep through the night, you don't realize how hard a large family can be until you have a baby AND a toddler AND a little kid AND a tween (particularly a tween who is not interested in being Parent 3). Also, little kids are way cheaper than big kids. 

My source? Mostly message boards with numerous posts by mamas asking, how am I supposed to do this? How am I supposed to afford this? and so on. 

On 6/30/2018 at 4:40 PM, Snarkasarus Rex said:

Well played, Jeremy.  Portray yourself as a 'true'Christian all the while believing the same exact things Derick does.

This is why I dislike Jeremy so much.  At least Derick doesn't try to hide being a complete asshole. 

 

I disagree. Jeremy doesn't seem to hide his beliefs, and I do think it's preferable to hold the belief that same-sex marriage is wrong while still restraining from calling someone else's family a travesty. 

On 7/2/2018 at 3:16 AM, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

On the topic of transgender children, can anyone point me to an article or a website that talks about minor children having gender confirmation surgery? Everything I've read talks about the option of using hormone suppressing drugs, and then hormone treatments for minors, but no surgery until kids are at least 18 years old. I realize that Jazz Jennings won't be 18 until October, but her's is the first instance of a minor having surgery that I'm personally aware of. 

1

No, but I can say that a local FtM teen had top surgery for sure at no older than 16, possibly 15. 

On 7/2/2018 at 9:51 PM, luv2laugh said:

 They said that at 18, the children would either grow out of gender dysphoria and conform or they would transition.

Whereas, now, there seems to be more of a label on things.  

1

 But, at 18, a MtF would have a lot more trouble transitioning. I feel tremendous empathy for parents who have to navigate these waters. 

Regarding the MtF athlete, the article talks about looking into hormone treatments, so my understanding would be that Yearwood has not had any hormone treatments yet, and has the muscle mass and testosterone of a typical teen male. To me, that is unfair. I don't know what the answer is, I suspect we'll be fumbling around for some time, but this particular example does not seem sporting to me. 

And then there are athletes who are intersex or have other genetic conditions that confound the male/female idea. We need a lot more research and knowledge! 

[PainfullyAware]

For the people who are thinking about the problems of binary gender expression (men wear pants and women wear dresses), it's helpful to learn that this is a separate spectrum from gender identity. This is a fantastic article explaining the difference:

Gender Identity: Who You Think You Are

On the left we have “woman” and on the right we have “man,” two terms you are likely already familiar with.  In the middle, we have the term “genderqueer,” which, you guessed it, is used for an identity that is somewhere between woman and man.  It’s also important to note that many people consider their identity to fall outside of the traditional (and limited) woman to man spectrum...

Gender identity is all about how you, in your head, think about yourself.  It’s about  how you internally interpret the chemistry that composes you (e.g., hormone levels).  As you know it, do you think you fit better into the societal role of “woman,” or “man,” or do neither ring particularly true for you?  That is, are you somewhere in-between the two?  Or do you consider your gender to fall outside of the spectrum completely?  The answer is your gender identity.

It has been accepted that we form our gender identities around the age of three, and after that age it is incredibly difficult to change them.  Formation of identity is affected by hormones and environment just as much as it is by biological sex...

Gender Expression: How You Demonstrate Who You Are

On the left we have “feminine” and on the right we have “masculine,” the two expressive terms related to “woman” and “man.”  In the middle, we have a new term “androgynous,” which describes an ambiguous or mixed form of expressing gender.

Gender expression is all about how you demonstrate your gender through the ways you act, dress, behave, and interact–whether that is intentional or unintended.  Gender expression is interpreted by others perceiving your gender based on traditional gender roles (e.g., men wear pants, women wear dresses).  Gender expression is something that often changes from day to day, outfit to outfit, event or setting to event or setting.  It’s about how the way you express yourself aligns or doesn’t with traditional ways of gendered expression.  And like gender identity, there is a lot of room for flexibility here..."

So yes, trans folks may feel pressured to express hyperfemininity or masculinity in order to "prove" their sense of gender identity to a skeptical and disapproving world. That doesn't undermine their trans gender identity however, it just shows how hard it is to live in a transphobic world. 

Gender expression binaries also make life very confusing for gender fluid people trying to figure out their authentic identities. It also leads to a lot of stereotypes that confound sexual identity, gender identity and gender expression. Even metrosexual or androgynous straight cisgender people face stereotypes (like "a man who loves flowers and shopping must be gay or trans!"). That's why it's best to keep an open mind on all three continuums and let people self-identify.  

[Knight of Ni]

Speaking of teaching the Duggars how to apply eyeliner, where can a thirty year old go to learn how to apply makeup that looks natural and not like stage makeup. Asking for a friend.

[SapphireSlytherin]

Sephora.  

[llg1234]

24 minutes ago, Knight of Ni said:

Speaking of teaching the Duggars how to apply eyeliner, where can a thirty year old go to learn how to apply makeup that looks natural and not like stage makeup. Asking for a friend.

Lisa Eldridge has some great videos for beginners. Plus, she’s an actual professional makeup artist, not just a YouTube “beauty guru.”

[Beermeet]

@katilac  Yes to your entire post!  With Jeremy,  yes of course I know he has his beliefs and that they look just like Derick's at their core.  I don't agree with Jeremy but, I appreciate him not being a hateful, loud tweeting dickhead like Derick.  We all have our beliefs and that's cool, freedom of speech and all ( has to work both ways) ,just at least conduct yourself in public in a kind manner and don't say anything at all if nothing nice to say.  There was always a rule about when not to talk about politics and religion.  A general politeness.  That needs a comeback, imho.  YMMV but, I think it a good rule.  

 Regarding the top surgery for the FtM at 15 or 16.  I'm surprised at that.  Because breasts are still developing at that age.  I don't know about the specifics or science behind the surgery but, cells and tissue still grows at that age.  Would it truly work?  Unless someone has the Cliffnotes, I need to Google that, I'm curious.

[katilac]

10 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

 

 Regarding the top surgery for the FtM at 15 or 16.  I'm surprised at that.  Because breasts are still developing at that age.  I don't know about the specifics or science behind the surgery but, cells and tissue still grows at that age.  Would it truly work?  Unless someone has the Cliffnotes, I need to Google that, I'm curious.

2

They also take male hormones, would that make the difference? I really have no idea. They posted on Instagram and I know they are younger than my youngest. 

[Beermeet]

21 minutes ago, katilac said:

They also take male hormones, would that make the difference? I really have no idea. They posted on Instagram and I know they are younger than my youngest. 

True, hormones should stop further development. 

[haroldtheyrefundies]

Re: trans kids taking hormone blockers and young teenagers having top surgery. Ok, so I am trans so I feel like I can talk about this. I recently read a great twitter thread about trans kids and how basically at the most at what you can do when your kid tells you that they think they are trans that you should get a haircut of the gender identity they believe they are and clothes that match the gender expression of that gender identity.  Most kids do not start hormone treatment or have any major surgeries. Kids can get hormone blockers that can stop them from having the puberty of the gender they are assigned at birth until they wait they are older to decide if taking hormones is right for them. With both hormone treatment and having any kind of surgery, top surgery or bottom surgery for trans guys like myself, you have to go to a gender therapist and have them diagnosis you with gender dysphoria. This can take up to a few years depending on your therapist. And then with top surgery a lot of times there are waitlists and sometimes it will take you a good while to get off of said waitlists. Sometimes with trans kids like Jazz the gender dysphoria is more severe and prominent and have to be taken care of before it gets worse. And sometimes, people don't even realize they are trans until they are older. I didn't realize until I was 16, but once I started thinking about it I realized I had always had gender dysphoria but I never had the right words to label what I was feeling. 

[Sky with diamonds]

7 hours ago, HarleyQuinn said:

Probably Jazz making a full recovery. 

I  expect it. 

Go Jazz. She is a brave, remarkable young woman. 

[wotdancer]

Someone mentioned athletic participation for transgender students. This site (https://www.athleticbusiness.com/ncaa-clarifies-transgender-participation-policies.html) has a summary of the NCAA guidelines, which basically come down to testosterone. A FTM student can participate on men's teams once he is receiving testosterone treatments, while a MTF student has to complete 1 year of testosterone suppression before participating on women's teams.

[VelociRapture]

3 hours ago, haroldtheyrefundies said:

Re: trans kids taking hormone blockers and young teenagers having top surgery. Ok, so I am trans so I feel like I can talk about this. I recently read a great twitter thread about trans kids and how basically at the most at what you can do when your kid tells you that they think they are trans that you should get a haircut of the gender identity they believe they are and clothes that match the gender expression of that gender identity.  Most kids do not start hormone treatment or have any major surgeries. Kids can get hormone blockers that can stop them from having the puberty of the gender they are assigned at birth until they wait they are older to decide if taking hormones is right for them. With both hormone treatment and having any kind of surgery, top surgery or bottom surgery for trans guys like myself, you have to go to a gender therapist and have them diagnosis you with gender dysphoria. This can take up to a few years depending on your therapist. And then with top surgery a lot of times there are waitlists and sometimes it will take you a good while to get off of said waitlists. Sometimes with trans kids like Jazz the gender dysphoria is more severe and prominent and have to be taken care of before it gets worse. And sometimes, people don't even realize they are trans until they are older. I didn't realize until I was 16, but once I started thinking about it I realized I had always had gender dysphoria but I never had the right words to label what I was feeling. 

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts. I hope you’re living the happy and full life you deserve.  

3 hours ago, wotdancer said:

Someone mentioned athletic participation for transgender students. This site (https://www.athleticbusiness.com/ncaa-clarifies-transgender-participation-policies.html) has a summary of the NCAA guidelines, which basically come down to testosterone. A FTM student can participate on men's teams once he is receiving testosterone treatments, while a MTF student has to complete 1 year of testosterone suppression before participating on women's teams.

I think this is likely the best approach right now. I don’t think it’s fair to essentially punish a MTF athlete by making them wait to participate, but it also isn’t exactly fair for some athletes to have an unfair and unintentional advantage either. Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s going to be a solution that’s completely fair for everyone - if there is it hasn’t been broached yet. 

(Maybe they can allow MTF athletes to be a part of the team and to train with them, but not compete as an active player until they’re eligible? That’s not really fair either, but at least the athlete would still get to enjoy their sport and stay in competitive shape?)

[nickelodeon]

4 hours ago, Beermeet said:

@katilac  Yes to your entire post!  With Jeremy,  yes of course I know he has his beliefs and that they look just like Derick's at their core.  I don't agree with Jeremy but, I appreciate him not being a hateful, loud tweeting dickhead like Derick.  We all have our beliefs and that's cool, freedom of speech and all ( has to work both ways) ,just at least conduct yourself in public in a kind manner and don't say anything at all if nothing nice to say.

Eh, it depends on what you mean by "loud" and "public." Jeremy does post an hour-long sermon on Youtube every week, which is every bit as public as Derick's tweets; we just tend to discuss them less.

[Emeraldgreen8496]

I’m going to comment on the clothing choices of IFB, Fundie, Quiverfuls or whatever term they chose to be referred to as. 

I can’t remember where the verse is at in the Bible, but is basically says “Women are not to adorn men’s dress or vice versa.” Something along those lines, and women should dress modestly to avoid tempting men. 

Well I have always been of the thought of a man gets tempted by the sheer appearance of shoulder blade, upper arm and/or kneecap he may have a bigger issue at hand. I can accept their thought process of no tank tops or booty shorts. Personally when it’s a 163 degrees outside I’m putting on a tank and shorts, they are not booty shorts usually have 5inch inseam or longer. 

I just think a woman can wear jeans or shorts without a man being “tempted’. I wouldn’t survive 2 min in the Fundy world because I loath wearing skirts. I fell like I’m missing an article of clothing, plus I don’t have a thigh gap and will end up sitting very unlady lake to avoid friction between my thighs. 

[Snarkasarus Rex]

1 hour ago, nickelodeon said:

Eh, it depends on what you mean by "loud" and "public." Jeremy does post an hour-long sermon on Youtube every week, which is every bit as public as Derick's tweets; we just tend to discuss them less.

Exactly.  His sermons are openly anti-Catholic and anti-LGBT, so he's definitely not hiding his beliefs.  Yet his persona on other social media platforms, where he has a greater following, is purposefully much more benign.  He's trying to expand his fan base by appearing to be more progressive, yet he isn't.  And it's working...I see comments all the time, like "Oh, they are my favorite couple!!  Jeremy's so sweet!! He's so smart!! He's a good influence on Jinger!!", and they make me want to puke because it's all BS.  That is what I find hypocritical.  At least Derick is consistent across the board.  

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, nickelodeon said:

Eh, it depends on what you mean by "loud" and "public." Jeremy does post an hour-long sermon on Youtube every week, which is every bit as public as Derick's tweets; we just tend to discuss them less.

That's a great point.

Something about Jeremy really creeps me out.

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

I love Dame Edna!  Everyone is "possums"!  

[Dandruff]

On 7/3/2018 at 8:55 PM, Beermeet said:

Bro. Gary is yet another reason why *folks* is getting ruined!

As well as the rest of the English language.