Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[AliceInFundyland]

38 minutes ago, WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo? said:

I had a teacher who called us "people". "People! Listen up! We need to go back to the beginning of the 2nd song!" It doesn't work as well in the singular, though. Calling someone "person" doesn't really work. Too bad "guys" isn't gender neutral. Almost everyone I know uses it that way.

Yes but, no, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otherkin

Try again

 

[Tim-Tom Biblethumper]

3 hours ago, Rachel333 said:

Ah, "folks." Or "folx," which is supposed to be a gender neutral alternative... to a word I thought was already completely gender neutral. Perfectly fine word, but it is so overused in social justice communities. (Also by politicians trying to appear down to earth. ) As a result, I'm starting to develop a bit of an aversion to it.

And don't forget, Bro. Gary.  

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

2 hours ago, Tim-Tom Biblethumper said:

And don't forget, Bro. Gary.  

It doesn't immediately remind me of Bro. Gary unless it's preceded by "Okay". 

Sis WWJCD

[VelociRapture]

8 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

I appreciate how this conversation is respectful, and thoughtful, it’s a very complex topic.

The above thought though is what I mean by erasing female born women and girls to center MTF transgender people and their issues and concerns.

A 15 year old who has normal young male amounts of testosterone, muscle mass, height, etc. is going to have a huge advantage over 15 year old biologically female athletes. Young women who may have been training for years, and have their hopes and dreams and - very importantly- chances for college scholarships - tied into the girls sports leaques they participate in, why isn’t their comfort and well-being just as important ? 

I’m in no way erasing anything. I specifically stated that I don’t know how else the organization could handle the issue at the present moment - I think the CIAC organization is doing the best they can given the circumstances. Trans rights are still in their infancy and there are going to be a lot of growing pains as the Trans community continues to fight for inclusion and acceptance. 

9 hours ago, Beermeet said:

You know who has always kicked ass and included women as equals in sport?  Skateboarders.   They rule.  My husband was a skater until recently and I watch all the stuff he does in that area.  Those dudes are cool like that.  Even in the 70's.  

Voting on it makes me uncomfortable too, tbh.  It would be unfair to the trans athlete, but isn't it unfair to the athletes without the technically stronger male form? Just trying to see all angles.  Idk.  Everyone seems to be doing just fine.  Thankfully.  Just me thinking.

It is unfair, but I truly don’t think a student vote would do any good and could do a lot more harm to be honest. 

8 hours ago, What the Fundie said:

Please don’t attack me, this is an honest question. Why do some transgender folk decide they like the same sex romantically after they transition. Wouldn’t it just be easier to stay what they were? Ex. A F decides she is male. Transitions and then likes men sexually. Isn’t it hard to find a gay man who wants to love a new man? I get so damn confused by all of this. I never thought of myself in terms of my vagina. It never defined who I am. I never even thought about whether I was male or female until I entered adolescence. 

Gender isn’t tied to sexuality. It’s a completely separate aspect of someone’s identity. So, for instance, my brother is bisexual. He was bisexual prior to coming out as Transgender (FTM) and he remained bisexual after coming out as Transgender. How he identifies in regards to gender doesn’t have an impact on who he is romantically attracted to. 

Its a very difficult concept for some people to grasp because they’ve never had to think about it or experience a struggle with who they are. I think it’s good you’re at least making an attempt to ask questions and try to understand though. 

6 hours ago, Beermeet said:

ITA about being open to discussion sans being really hard on ourselves.   I'm not going to lie, it was scary chiming in.  Especially because I'm frazzled lately and I really do give a shit.  Growing up in the 80's, there was no talk like this because it wasn't happening.   I am totally open and supportive but have situations to think about and vocabulary to change.  So, thanks all for discussing.  If we don't we'll never get anywhere further in mutual understanding.  

Dude, what's wrong with dude?  I like dude.  It's versatile.  I think of it as a harmless thing to say.  Not negative or even gender specific.  At least where I live.  Doooood!  Am I about to be bummed?

I’m probably misinterpreting this (sorry!), but Trans people have always existed. It’s just that society hasn’t been willing to acknowledge their presence until now. That’s why no one was talking about it when you were growing up, not because it wasn’t happening. 

[nelliebelle1197]

17 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

My objection to this is that it seems, lately, to become common for the exact same things people complain about the patriarchy to just be replicated in traditionally women’s sphere’s, with MtoF taking over, talking over and centering themselves - and pushing out the young women who choose women only spaces to avoid that. 

Not all MtoF, of course. And the extremes always get more notice. But self-identification as a stand alone criteria is problematic, to me. Elite Women’s Colleges ( and for that matter, set-aside spots for women and POC ) exist to help ameliorate some of the social constraints of being born and raised female in our male led society. 

But I don't see why MtoF is an issue. They are still young women learning to navigate a patriarchical world. Inherently, MtoF cannot be patriarchy because, in spite of genitalia, they are women. Conversely, FtoM ARE inherently men internally which lends itself to privilege, despite genitalia,  but have been brought up as women, which, despite identity, lends itself to oppression.

AND..... this is why I am confused.

[nelliebelle1197]

8 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

Okay I have a question and I apologize if I don't ask it right, I have only good intentions of wanting to understand-

I get that they feel that they are a different gender but doesn't that put gender in a box so to speak? If gender is a socially constructed idea then cant we just get rid of the box we put it in. For exsample, say my son really likes dolls and coloring and other socially labeled girl things isn't that just society saying well you act like X so you should be X? It seems like by transitioning they are in a way conforming to the box society puts them in just instead of changing the way they act and their interests (like what use to be forced on people) they are changing their body. It seems like part of the problems are that we just can't accept people for who they are and what they like. I hope that makes sense.  

 

My husband has a non bionary cousin and I've tried talking to they about this but I feel like I just frustrate they. I've not experienced itvor had anyone close to me experience this feeling so I really just lack basic applied knowledge.

If you have not done it yet, do some research on how certain pre-Columbian North Americans felt about gender. I don't want to spoil it for you, but I will

Apparently, up until even the end of the 19th century, many groups recognized FIVE genders - male and female of course, but  also gay members were considered a separate gender, with female lesbian warriors and males the in village working along side the women. Then there was the fifth, most rare - the in-between, who were both, who were honored for having a foot in both worlds, and not forced to choose a label.

Definitions like this from ancient cultures make me feel that not only have transgendered people always been with us, but some day we will find a biological, genetic or developmental reason to explain why people are born this way and they can finally be accepted - and the idea of trans as a cultural construct or choice will fade.

 

[SapphireSlytherin]

46 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

That’s why no one was talking about it when you were growing up, not because it wasn’t happening. 

It was being "talked about" (I grew up in the 70s/early 80s), but it was more of a sensationalist news story, rather than a mainstream news/discussion item.

I'm a "dude"-er from way back (see "I grew up in the 70s/early 80s"). Still use it to this day.

As far as the MTF person not getting bids to any sorority, it also happens to cis females - sometimes people don't click with others (not to be confused with clique), or they have an odd/different personality, or whatever. Not saying MTF women aren't being discriminated against, at all, because they are.

We are friends with a couple, a cis female and her husband, who is FTM transgender. They're fun to be around, volunteer in our neighborhood, and have two great kids, plus a cat and a dog. You know, just like a lot of our other neighbors.

And I've said it before and I'll say it again:  I give exactly zero shits about what your anatomy looks like under your clothes. 

[Captain Obvious]

58 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

Gender isn’t tied to sexuality. It’s a completely separate aspect of someone’s identity. So, for instance, my brother is bisexual. He was bisexual prior to coming out as Transgender (FTM) and he remained bisexual after coming out as Transgender. How he identifies in regards to gender doesn’t have an impact on who he is romantically attracted to. 

Sexuality is definitely a separate part of someone's identity to their gender identity, but it may have a connection to the physical aspects of transition.

I say that because there have been MTF trans people who were attracted to women before transition, but once they started taking hormones, became attracted to men as well. I know two MTF ladies who this has happened to - neither of them has had bottom surgery yet (both are saving up for it at the moment) so it just shows how strong those hormones can be. The third trans woman I know was attracted to women before and still is, even more so according to her.

I don't know whether the same thing happens to FTM people, but I've seen stats that show that FTMs are much more likely to be attracted to women than to men after transition, whereas with MTF, they're more evenly spread across being attracted to men, women or both. So maybe it's purely an HRT thing.

 

[Rachel333]

A lot of people definitely do experience shifts in sexuality when transitioning and if you're at all involved in the trans community you'll notice that this topic comes up frequently. For instance, it's actually really common for FtM men to find themselves attracted to men for the first time after taking testosterone. I have no idea why, but it seems to be a common experience. Here's an article about it.

In addition, there are those people who don't necessarily experience a change in attraction but feel more comfortable exploring one side of their sexuality after transitioning, like Caitlyn Jenner who had always identified as straight but has said that now she has transitioned she has considered dating men.

[Andie]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

If you have not done it yet, do some research on how certain pre-Columbian North Americans felt about gender. I don't want to spoil it for you, but I will

Apparently, up until even the end of the 19th century, many groups recognized FIVE genders - male and female of course, but  also gay members were considered a separate gender, with female lesbian warriors and males the in village working along side the women. Then there was the fifth, most rare - the in-between, who were both, who were honored for having a foot in both worlds, and not forced to choose a label.

Definitions like this from ancient cultures make me feel that not only have transgendered people always been with us, but some day we will find a biological, genetic or developmental reason to explain why people are born this way and they can finally be accepted - and the idea of trans as a cultural construct or choice will fade.

 

Loooooong time lurker,

This doesn't describe some trans utopia, it's pure homophobia.  Many societies (both ancient and modern) considered gays and lesbians as lesser people.  Gay men weren't seen as real men because they were gay.  Gay women weren't real women because they were gay.  They weren't allowed to be real men and women.  In most cases (possibly all), individuals had no choice in the matter.  If you were gay, you were something other than a man or woman.  Denying someone their sex solely based on their sexual orientation isn't progressive; it's hatred of gay people.  

[Frumper]

11 hours ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

Jill makes cinnamon toast differently than I do. My recipe - Butter some bread and place it on a cookie sheet. Put cinnamon and sugar on it, then stick it in the oven at about 350 until it's crispy enough to suit your tastes.

My mom does this, but with brown sugar instead of white.  It's so good.  The kids/grandkids/great grandkids love her cinnamon toast so much she occasionally serves it for dessert at family gatherings.

[nelliebelle1197]

1 hour ago, Andie said:

Loooooong time lurker,

This doesn't describe some trans utopia, it's pure homophobia.  Many societies (both ancient and modern) considered gays and lesbians as lesser people.  Gay men weren't seen as real men because they were gay.  Gay women weren't real women because they were gay.  They weren't allowed to be real men and women.  In most cases (possibly all), individuals had no choice in the matter.  If you were gay, you were something other than a man or woman.  Denying someone their sex solely based on their sexual orientation isn't progressive; it's hatred of gay people.  

The readings I have done on the Two Spirit tradition says something very different. They were not lesser - they were revered and highly respected. Gender and sexuality were  defined very differently. It would take quite a callous and culturally uniformed reading of these beliefs to see them in the way you are portraying them. In fact, you are placing western norms and interpretations of gender where they don't apply.

[Rachel333]

1 hour ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

The readings I have done on the Two Spirit tradition says something very different. They were not lesser - they were revered and highly respected. Gender and sexuality were  defined very differently. It would take quite a callous and culturally uniformed reading of these beliefs to see them in the way you are portraying them. In fact, you are placing western norms and interpretations of gender where they don't apply.

What culture are you talking about specifically? It sounds like you're lumping a bunch of different cultures into one and making some really broad statements, as well as speaking about that culture as if it were only in the past (the Two Spirit tradition is alive and well, and the generalized way you speak of it is probably actually somewhat more accurate now*) and projecting your ideals onto this monolithic culture. Especially in the past Native American cultures different quite a bit in terms of how they recognized gender, with some of those that recognized multiple genders being more like what you describe and others where gender roles were very strictly enforced like what Andie described. Still others had no third gender at all and of those some had strict gender roles while others were more egalitarian.

*Actually, I take that back. The way you're talking about it is only applicable for modern Native cultures. It's a modern, pan-Indian term coined in 1990 as a sort of generalized way to describe the myriads of traditional third genders.

This is a good article from an Ojibwe woman: "‘Two Spirit’ Tradition Far From Ubiquitous Among Tribes." She writes that she has "often been cornered by well-meaning liberals who hold forth authoritatively about the esteem in which traditional Native-American culture holds LGBTQ folks."

Quote

As a journalist and Ojibwe woman, I am troubled by the claims that Native peoples historically described LGBTQ folks as two-spirited and celebrated them as healers and shamans, because the claims are mostly unfounded or only partially true. 

These sort of simplified black-and-white depictions of Native culture and history perpetuate indiscriminate appropriation of Native peoples. Although the current new meme or legend surrounding the term two spirit is certainly laudable for helping LGBTQ people create their own more empowering terminology to describe themselves, it carries some questionable baggage.

Quote

My concern is not so much over the use of the words but over the social meme they have generated that has morphed into a cocktail of historical revisionism, wishful thinking, good intentions, and a soupçon of white, entitled appropriation.

Quote

Native Americans are disappointingly and inconveniently human, just like the rest of the population. Describing us in any other terms reflects a particularly resistant form of racism called entitlement.

“Human beings are pretty complicated,” Treuer notes. “Each tribe had their own way of describing gender variation.”

 

[nelliebelle1197]

15 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

What culture are you talking about specifically? It sounds like you're lumping a bunch of different cultures into one and making some really broad statements, as well as speaking about that culture as if it were only in the past (the Two Spirit tradition is alive and well, and the generalized way you speak of it is probably actually somewhat more accurate now) and projecting your ideals onto this monolithic culture. Especially in the past Native American cultures different quite a bit in terms of how they recognized gender, with some of those that recognized multiple genders being more like what you describe and others where gender roles were very strictly enforced like what Andie described. Still others had no third gender at all and of those some had strict gender roles while others were more egalitarian.

I never said a monolithic culture. I said specifically "many groups". A number of researchers I have read posit that most groups had three to five genders before contact. Two Spirit was taken from Ojibwe but there are as many words for it with shades of meaning as there are/were groups/cultures. "Two Spirit" is a modern catch all term, and I am not sure what you have read  other than the the Wikipedia article on Two Spirit, which you seem to be summarizing. But it is actually not alive and well in the traditional sense; the traditional concepts - and there are many - have been shaded by European Christian definitions of gender and it is only the last couple decades that certain activists have tried to reignite the concepts.

[PainfullyAware]

2 hours ago, Andie said:

Denying someone their sex solely based on their sexual orientation isn't progressive; it's hatred of gay people.  

Sorry the Anthropologist in me has to say something. You have to understand that concept like gender and sex vary dramatically between cultures. In Indonesia there are several cultures that recognize up to seven genders and those genders have combinations of sexual attraction. Even to say the word gender as we use it doesn't truly reflect how they comprehend it. Gender and sexual identity are often considered to be more about the role you play or a performance in the community, rather than some immutable characteristic you were born with. You also can't neatly split gender and sexuality  in some of how these communities conceptualize  those  aspects of identity. In many communities there is no hierarchy between different gender and sexual identities, and in fact some "gender-fluid" identities are highly respected as having great wisdom or being mystical. (It's actually fascinating to read about how Western conceptions of identity and gender are being encountered in these traditional societies in non-western countries).

There is research on gay identities in traditional cultures in Zimbabwe that show the complexity of the issue. What they have found is that reproduction is the heart of male and female sexual identity traditionally. But as long as a man, for example, fathers children with a wife, no one could care less about his other sexual relationships or his gender expression. In other words, you are born to be a father or mother, so this necessitates heterosexual intercourse, but that doesn't mean you are considered to be straight or gay. Now of course that doesn't mean this way of doing things promotes equality but it does show that our Western conceptions about sexual orientation identity don't fit neatly on to non Western conceptions. This is of course not to deny the violent homophobia that exist in many parts of Zimbabwe today.

Now there are definitely examples where having  gender pluralism in your culture doesn't mean you are free from oppression. There is an indigenous culture in Malaysia where gender non-conforming people, who choose their own partners, can be shamans and yet somewhat ostracized in an otherwise very gender binary community. So this type of community might be representative of what you're talking about. But basically it's just not something you can generalize about.

[Rachel333]

30 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

I never said a monolithic culture. I said specifically "many groups". A number of researchers I have read posit that most groups had three to five genders before contact. Two Spirit was taken from Ojibwe but there are as many words for it with shades of meaning as there are/were groups/cultures. "Two Spirit" is a modern catch all term, and I am not sure what you have read  other than the the Wikipedia article on Two Spirit, which you seem to be summarizing. But it is actually not alive and well in the traditional sense; the traditional concepts - and there are many - have been shaded by European Christian definitions of gender and it is only the last couple decades that certain activists have tried to reignite the concepts.

I wasn't talking about your earlier post, I was talking about the one I quoted where you're making some really broad statements and you absolutely don't make it clear that  you're talking about multiple cultures. You literally said "the Two Spirit tradition" and then spoke about it as if it were only one thing. I'm not claiming to be an expert (funny you throw in the wikipedia jab when I linked to it to make it clear that's where I got the wording I added to the post) but I do know how much it frustrates Native Americans when people 1. lump all their cultures together and 2. speak about their cultures as if they only existed in the past. Even in your earlier post you're portraying them all as idyllic, egalitarian societies when that simply was not the case. Maybe that's not how you meant it, but that was how it came across. I do appreciate that this post is more nuanced and if you had phrased things like that from the beginning then I would have had no objections.

Also, if you're talking about ancient cultures only then we are all looking from a biased, modern perspective and I believe most if not all of us here are culturally western here and biased in that way as well.

24 minutes ago, PainfullyAware said:

Sorry the Anthropologist in me has to say something. You have to understand that concept like gender and sex vary dramatically between cultures. In Indonesia there are several cultures that recognize up to seven genders and those genders have combinations of sexual attraction. Even to say the word gender as we use it doesn't truly reflect how they comprehend it. Gender and sexual identity are often considered to be more about the role you play or a performance in the community, rather than some immutable characteristic you were born with. You also can't neatly split gender and sexuality  in some how these communities conceptualize  those  aspects of identity. In many communities there is no hierarchy between different gender and sexual identities, and in fact some "gender-fluid" identities are highly respected as having great wisdom or being mystical. (It's actually fascinating to read about how Western conceptions of identity and gender are being encountered in these traditional societies in non-western countries).

There is research on gay and lesbian identities in traditional cultures in Zimbabwe. What they have found is that reproduction is the heart of male and female sexual identity. But as long as a man, for example, fathers children with a wife, no one could care less about his other sexual relationships or his gender expression. In other words, you are born to be a father or mother, so this necessitates heterosexual intercourse, but that doesn't mean you are considered to be straight or gay. Now of course that doesn't mean this way of doing things promotes equality but it does show that our Western conceptions about sexual orientation identity don't fit neatly on to non Western conceptions.

Now there are definitely examples where having  gender pluralism in your culture doesn't mean you are free from oppression. There is an indigenous culture in Malaysia where gender non-conforming people, who choose their own partners, can be shamans and yet somewhat ostracized in an otherwise very gender binary community. So this type of community might be representative of what you're talking about. But basically it's just not something you can generalize about.

Thank you, this post is a great example of how you can talk about these cultures without generalizing them as all idyllic or all oppressive.

[nelliebelle1197]

@Rachel333 ahh... I see what you mean. I was following up on my original post and assumed that would make sense down the line. Sorry.

This is a good article!

[Rachel333]

1 minute ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

@Rachel333 ahh... I see what you mean. I was following up on my original post and assumed that would make sense down the line. Sorry.

This is a good article!

Got it, and thanks for the link.

[Palimpsest]

12 hours ago, Beermeet said:

ITA about being open to discussion sans being really hard on ourselves.   I'm not going to lie, it was scary chiming in.  Especially because I'm frazzled lately and I really do give a shit.  Growing up in the 80's, there was no talk like this because it wasn't happening. 

But it was.  It was absolutely front and central in the 1970s for anyone following professional tennis, and was definitely being discussed in the 80s.  Perhaps not discussed in front of the children though.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards

The very first trans person that I've known personally (to my knowledge) I met in the late 70s.  Mary (not her name) is MtF, had previously been married and had a couple of children.  She was open, even back then, to talking about her transition and how it had affected her family.  Basically, her parents rejected her, and the wife sued for divorce and sole custody and won.  It was very sad.  She was not rejected by my group of friends, although some struggled to understand, but we were a group of very liberal minded swinging Londoners.  I'm sure she found us extremely ignorant, however.

6 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I’m probably misinterpreting this (sorry!), but Trans people have always existed. It’s just that society hasn’t been willing to acknowledge their presence until now. That’s why no one was talking about it when you were growing up, not because it wasn’t happening. 

Of course they have.  There are plenty of historical examples of women passing as men (and vice versa).  They just had to live their lives in hiding, to say nothing of not having access to the hormones and surgery available today.  Tragic.

[Alisamer]

24 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Of course they have.  There are plenty of historical examples of women passing as men (and vice versa).  They just had to live their lives in hiding, to say nothing of not having access to the hormones and surgery available today.  Tragic.

I read a book a while back about women sailors, primarily in the age of piracy, and there were TONS of women who took male names and went to sea. I'm sure some were just making their way the best they could, or traveling the only way they could, but some were certainly trans as well. Trans people have always, always existed.

I also use the word "dude" as a gender neutral term, and have for many years. (And if I ever say something that offends someone here please tell me because that is not my intent!)

[DillyDally]

Did we discuss the below picture from their 4th anniversary date already? 

Spoiler

 

Just saw it on Keeping up with Fundies (don't want to give Jill and OfJill clicks), along with many other pictures from their date. They surely like to put everything out there on the internet now that the TLC income has stopped. Oh wait, right, they "volunteered" for the show. I've been wondering for a while what exactly they are trying to achieve with that (I remember reading about some distressing video scenes with Israel put on their website as well) and whether it's some sort of compensation for not being on national TV anymore. 

[socalrules]

I seriously wish someone would teach the Duggars how to put in eyeliner. Not one of them can get it right. It’s always too heavy and one eye never matches the other. 

I think Jill is auditioning to be the wild and crazy Duggar. No matter why she took that picture, it doesn’t make her seem fun or even interesting. It’s called “I am trying too hard to make myself happen”.

[Beermeet]

3 hours ago, Palimpsest said:

But it was.  It was absolutely front and central in the 1970s for anyone following professional tennis, and was definitely being discussed in the 80s.  Perhaps not discussed in front of the children though.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renée_Richards

The very first trans person that I've known personally (to my knowledge) I met in the late 70s.  Mary (not her name) is MtF, had previously been married and had a couple of children.  She was open, even back then, to talking about her transition and how it had affected her family.  Basically, her parents rejected her, and the wife sued for divorce and sole custody and won.  It was very sad.  She was not rejected by my group of friends, although some struggled to understand, but we were a group of very liberal minded swinging Londoners.  I'm sure she found us extremely ignorant, however.

Of course they have.  There are plenty of historical examples of women passing as men (and vice versa).  They just had to live their lives in hiding, to say nothing of not having access to the hormones and surgery available today.  Tragic.

Yes, of course trans individuals have always been.  Always.  Thankfully, now it's very different.  Still a ways to go but hopefully we ( society we) will keep progressing.   

[feministxtian]

this conversation on gender and identity is very interesting to me. 

I can remember, as a kid, I wanted to be a boy. As I got older and I realized I liked guys, I decided that being a girl was cool. BUT...I've always been a "tomboy"...I like guy shit. Racing, sports, cars, engineering, 12 year old potty humor. It's like in my head I'm more guy than girl but being physically female is cool. I guess you could say I'm confused? It doesn't help any that I'm short, muscular, broad shouldered and used to be pretty athletic. 

Who the fuck knows...I'm just me. 

[Daisy0322]

4 minutes ago, feministxtian said:

this conversation on gender and identity is very interesting to me. 

I can remember, as a kid, I wanted to be a boy. 

That's actually very common, in my child psychology class we talked a lot about how gender in young children is very fluid because social norms haven't been pressed on them yet. I forget who studied it I want to say Erickson but I don't think that's right.