Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[mpheels]

Disclaimer that I am not trans, but have several colleagues who are, and I’ve collaborated on a few trans health research projects...

The conventional wisdom for medical care of young trans people has been to avoid any permanent physical changes until the person reaches physical maturity. The medical reasoning behind this is that 1) continued growth will change the appearance of things like top surgery over time and 2) concern about people wanting to detransition after adolescence (this idea is fraught with anti-trans sentiment). Our thinking about #2 is changing, including increased understanding of psychology behind gender dysphoria, which lets all involved feel more confident in earlier decisions and interventions for some young trans people. With respect to #1, attitudes are shifting to recognize benefits from earlier physical intervention, even when balanced against the need for revision surgery later in life. Setting aside political interference, the medical community is shifting towards a more personalized approach. Some people will have surgery in their teens, others may wait until their mid-20s, or never have surgery at all.

[Shiny]

I'm no expert on gender dysphoria, but I know what my trans friend has said and Laura Jane Grace from Against Me. They both say that they *had* gender dysphoria but now don't because the cure is transitioning or at least accepting that you are trans and living as who you are. Cure isn't the word Laura Jane uses, I don't think...and it's not quite the right word here, but hopefully the idea comes across.

I do think Derick would hate this respectful discussion happening on his thread. 

[xenobia]

A good friend of mine is transgender. I've had the privilege of knowing him through the whole process. It has made me more enlightened and more humble, but also very angry when I see what transgender people have to fight against every day just to be who they really are. Today his kids have two fathers. And yes, they are different than most other kids/teenagers I know. They are polite, well educated, curious, open minded and extremely smart. If thats how kids with transgender parents turn out, we need more of them! As for myself, I honestly think that the privilege of following someone through this process as a friend has made me a better person. That's a bonus effect. 

[Hisey]

On 7/5/2018 at 7:23 AM, Mama Mia said:

Not true. What started this part of the conversation was Jazz Jennings having her Gender Confirmation Surgery - she is 17.

Another example is Oregon, where all services, including top and bottom surgery, can be provided, without parental consent, at 15.  ( 15 is the age of medical consent in Oregon ) . This would be rare, of course.

https://www.oregon.gov/OHA/HPA/CSI-HERC/FactSheets/Gender-dysphoria.pdf

In California there is no specific age, individual surgeons can decide. Here is one article about a 14 year old with a double mastectomy, just as an example.

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-transgender-teen-20160414-story.html

 

 

 

This strikes me as essentially meaningless. How does a 15-year old pay for the surgery? How does he even get to the appointments? Won't his parents notice if he is missing school, or won't they see him post surgery?

[Mama Mia]

1 hour ago, Hisey said:

This strikes me as essentially meaningless. How does a 15-year old pay for the surgery? How does he even get to the appointments? Won't his parents notice if he is missing school, or won't they see him post surgery?

In California, and I believe in Oregon, teens who are receiving medical services that don’t require parental consent are eligible for a  state funded Medicaid based on their individual income - which is obviously 0 or close to it.  Because it is state funded it also can cover things like abortion ( at least in California - I would imagine Orgeon’s Structure is similar. It is especially helpful for birth control, if teens don’t want to inform their parents.

I assume for transgender issues treatment without parental consent would primarily be hormones. There are also shelters and resources geared to teens who have been kicked out / run away / are living independently. Some of these are targeted specifically to LGBT youth.  There are a really large number of. 16-17 year olds who don’t live with family, particularly in west coast cities. 

[llg1234]

Samuel turns 1 today (7/8). Jill seems to subscribe to the Michelle School of Birthday Messages. She’s just missing ‘sweet,’ ‘precious,’ and/or ‘blessing’ in there.

 

[Boogers]

3 minutes ago, llg1234 said:

Samuel turns 1 today (7/8). Jill seems to subscribe to the Michelle School of Birthday Messages. She’s just missing ‘sweet,’ ‘precious,’ and/or ‘blessing’ in there.

 

They always seem to focus on who they want these kids to be, not who the kids are....

[Joyfully_Unavailable]

58 minutes ago, Boogers said:

They always seem to focus on who they want these kids to be, not who the kids are....

I feel like the “others” Jill wants Sam to love has an asterisk: *other people who believe what Derick/Jill do, *other people who are willing to be converted by Derick/Jill, *other people who are not a part of the LGBT+ community...the list could go on. God forbid at the wise old age of 1 Sam decides to befriend a heathen in a sandbox or something. 

[socalrules]

56 minutes ago, Boogers said:

They always seem to focus on who they want these kids to be, not who the kids are....

I think that’s because they don’t really care who their kids are as they aren’t raised to have their own wants, desires or identity. 

I don’t get wishing that your child grows up to be someone God loves when God loves everyone regardless of how they live their lives or whether they believe in His existence. There is no checklist you have to fulfill in order to gain God’s love. 

[Rachel333]

37 minutes ago, socalrules said:

I don’t get wishing that your child grows up to be someone God loves when God loves everyone regardless of how they live their lives or whether they believe in His existence. There is no checklist you have to fulfill in order to gain God’s love. 

Well, they're saying "a man who loves God," not "a man who God loves."

It's such common phrasing and I never thought much about it until I realized I no longer believed in God, at which point my parents' claims that "all we care about is that you love God!" had a different connotation to me.

[Queen]

On 7/4/2018 at 9:16 PM, PainfullyAware said:

 As you know it, do you think you fit better into the societal role of “woman,” or “man,” or do neither ring particularly true for you?

(Painfully Aware is quoting an article here)

I strongly disagree that it is your adaptability to gender roles that makes up your identity. I am a woman, because I know I'm a woman. Same of course for trans women, who also know that they are women, it feels right for us both. It has nothing to do with our interests, how we dress, who we like etc. I'm not less of a woman for liking other women or wearing pants.

I went on a bit of a rant there, sorry. I've just recently felt that some people don't realize that their definition of gender might not be progressive, even if their intent surely isn't to have us conform to gender roles. It can be tought to be gender-nonconforming, but it is not equal to being non-cisgender.* People forget that gender roles are completly made up! I had cis classmates in high school who claimed it was in their genes to like pink because they were female. Like, seriously. (Although I used to believe that stuff too as a kid when I didn't know better, so who am I to throw the first stone...)

*although I would never invalidate anyone's gender identity. What we ID as is ultimately a personal descicion. You tell me your name and pronouns and I'm gonna respect the hell out of you <3

[Hisey]

13 hours ago, Mama Mia said:

In California, and I believe in Oregon, teens who are receiving medical services that don’t require parental consent are eligible for a  state funded Medicaid based on their individual income - which is obviously 0 or close to it.  Because it is state funded it also can cover things like abortion ( at least in California - I would imagine Orgeon’s Structure is similar. It is especially helpful for birth control, if teens don’t want to inform their parents.

I assume for transgender issues treatment without parental consent would primarily be hormones. There are also shelters and resources geared to teens who have been kicked out / run away / are living independently. Some of these are targeted specifically to LGBT youth.  There are a really large number of. 16-17 year olds who don’t live with family, particularly in west coast cities. 

You said that state law allowed 15-year olds to get top and bottom surgery without parental consent, and my point was that this is meaningless, because there is no way a teen could afford to pay for that. Teens living independently are even less able to pay for surgery. 16 and 17 years olds who have left home are usually struggling to survive, and don't have the thousands needed for gender reassignment surgery.

Going on Medicaid doesn't solve the problem.  In California, state-funded Medicaid nearly always denies claims for gender reassignment surgery (though it has been successfully appealed by some). More importantly, it's very, very difficult to find an experienced surgeon that takes Medi-Cal. A teen who wants this surgery will probably need to self-pay.

So the fact that it can be done without parental consent really is irrelevant. You'd need to have a teen with thousands of dollars in spare cash, who'd sneak away from home one day, get transportation to a hospital, have the surgery, then return home to his astonished (and presumably disapproving) parents.

Without adult assistance, it's hard for young teens to even get hormone therapy. I have a child who is almost 15. She'd be hard-pressed to get to a doctor on her own. She is too young to drive, and without a credit card, she cannot take an uber. If she did spend several hours getting to a doctors appt, the school would report her absence to me, or I'd notice she was gone. If she had hormone therapy replacement, I'd certainly notice the changes that this treatment caused. 

"Without parental consent" laws really only help older teens, living away from home, who have the ability or resources to figure out the Medicaid system, obtain transportation, and locate appropriate medical providers. This is a small subset of teenagers.

[neurogirl]

There is a great episode in season 2 of the new Queer Eye where the client/focus is a trans man. He had recently had top surgery in his young 30s, and the emotion he had when woke up from surgery and saw that his chest looked the way he always felt it should...it was very moving indeed. I try to be progressive and aware, but as I don't know any openly trans people personally, the episode was a "Trans 201" (not quite 101) to focus on the emotional side of the transition, and why for some trans people, surgery(ies) are vital to their health and happiness, and "just dressing like a man" won't cut it. My SO had been wondering if trans people who transition are then "adhering too much to the gender binary" (what my SO said was much nicer than that but I can't remember the wording) and the show did a great job of showing that gender confirmation surgeries are for the trans person to match on the outside who THEY ARE on the inside, not just for the world to see. So yes, gender is a spectrum, and the trans person on the show did like to dress slightly androgynously sometimes, but he was a man and needed for his body to reflect that.

Now all of the above paragraph might be super obvious to you all, but to those supportive but a little unsure, it was a helpful episode that taught me something I wouldn't want to ask about in person. Sorry for my ignorance I'm always reading and willing to learn. 

[DillyDally]

16 hours ago, llg1234 said:

Samuel turns 1 today (7/8). Jill seems to subscribe to the Michelle School of Birthday Messages. She’s just missing ‘sweet,’ ‘precious,’ and/or ‘blessing’ in there.

 

I'm sure Samuel appreciated the mention on Instagram 

Also, am I the only one seeing a little version of Jack Nicholson in the first picture? 

[Mama Mia]

6 hours ago, Hisey said:

You said that state law allowed 15-year olds to get top and bottom surgery without parental consent, and my point was that this is meaningless, because there is no way a teen could afford to pay for that. Teens living independently are even less able to pay for surgery. 16 and 17 years olds who have left home are usually struggling to survive, and don't have the thousands needed for gender reassignment surgery.

Going on Medicaid doesn't solve the problem.  In California, state-funded Medicaid nearly always denies claims for gender reassignment surgery (though it has been successfully appealed by some). More importantly, it's very, very difficult to find an experienced surgeon that takes Medi-Cal. A teen who wants this surgery will probably need to self-pay.

So the fact that it can be done without parental consent really is irrelevant. You'd need to have a teen with thousands of dollars in spare cash, who'd sneak away from home one day, get transportation to a hospital, have the surgery, then return home to his astonished (and presumably disapproving) parents.

Without adult assistance, it's hard for young teens to even get hormone therapy. I have a child who is almost 15. She'd be hard-pressed to get to a doctor on her own. She is too young to drive, and without a credit card, she cannot take an uber. If she did spend several hours getting to a doctors appt, the school would report her absence to me, or I'd notice she was gone. If she had hormone therapy replacement, I'd certainly notice the changes that this treatment caused. 

"Without parental consent" laws really only help older teens, living away from home, who have the ability or resources to figure out the Medicaid system, obtain transportation, and locate appropriate medical providers. This is a small subset of teenagers.

 

As I said, and as the statement from Oregon said, obviously the surgery without parental consent would be very rare. As would  a 15 year old receiving heart surgery without parental consent. But 15 is the age of medical consent for anything in that state. 

And I’m not sure if  surgery itself would fall under California’s exceptions for 14+ receiving confidential services. I would assume so, since you need statements from mental health professionals to obtain treatment, and mental health is a covered area. But not sure of the lines.

According to statements from the California Department of Health services - they cover all aspects of surgery and services with medi-cal, to the same extent as other insurance providers. Of course, as with any treatment, it’s harder to find a provider who will take it. Especially for speciality services. http://www.dhcs.ca.gov/formsandpubs/Documents/MMCDAPLsandPolicyLetters/APL2016/APL16-013.pdf

My original point was that people were under the impression that minors could not receive surgery, Even with parental permission. This is not true, at least in the two states I mentioned. 

I am surprised though that you think a 15 year old couldn’t find a doctor, or navigate the system or arrange transportation. There are buses, google, resource centers specifically for them,  mainstream clinics ( like Planned Parenthood , youth counseling centers, etc . help them do the Medicaid paperwork on site. It’s very simplified ) . I mean we’re talking 15, not 5. 

 

 

 

[Mama Mia]

I was mistaken about some aspects of California minor consent. They updated regulations in 2010. They expanded consent in areas , to age 12. But also tightened regulations in others ( particularly around psychotropic drugs - which is probably good ? ) 

if any one is interested, this gives a good breakdown 

https://www.rbmafamilydocs.com/child-healthcare-rights-california/

[WiseGirl]

3 hours ago, DillyDally said:

I'm sure Samuel appreciated the mention on Instagram 

Also, am I the only one seeing a little version of Jack Nicholson in the first picture? 

You made me go back and look, and yes I do see it now that you mention it. 

[Kaylo]

 
As I said, and as the statement from Oregon said, obviously the surgery without parental consent would be very rare. As would  a 15 year old receiving heart surgery without parental consent. But 15 is the age of medical consent for anything in that state. 
And I’m not sure if  surgery itself would fall under California’s exceptions for 14+ receiving confidential services. I would assume so, since you need statements from mental health professionals to obtain treatment, and mental health is a covered area. But not sure of the lines.
According to statements from the California Department of Health services - they cover all aspects of surgery and services with medi-cal, to the same extent as other insurance providers. Of course, as with any treatment, it’s harder to find a provider who will take it. Especially for speciality services. http://www.dhcs.ca.gov/formsandpubs/Documents/MMCDAPLsandPolicyLetters/APL2016/APL16-013.pdf
My original point was that people were under the impression that minors could not receive surgery, Even with parental permission. This is not true, at least in the two states I mentioned. 
I am surprised though that you think a 15 year old couldn’t find a doctor, or navigate the system or arrange transportation. There are buses, google, resource centers specifically for them,  mainstream clinics ( like Planned Parenthood , youth counseling centers, etc . help them do the Medicaid paperwork on site. It’s very simplified ) . I mean we’re talking 15, not 5. 
 
 
 

Not everyone lives in a city. Rural areas don’t always have busses, resource centers, youth counseling centers, etc.

[Mama Mia]

1 minute ago, Kaylo said:

Not everyone lives in a city. Rural areas don’t always have busses, resource centers, youth counseling centers, etc.

Right. And as I’ve said. Most of these services and supports are geared towards West Coast cities. Which tend to have a large amount of LGBT resources. As well as more general resources and support for non-traditionally housed, poor and/or homeless youth. 

I mean we could get into a long discussion about the differences in acccess to virtually any service in rural communities - and weighing that out with cheaper housing, general safety etc.....

[Hisey]

1 hour ago, Kaylo said:

Not everyone lives in a city. Rural areas don’t always have busses, resource centers, youth counseling centers, etc.

It's not just rural areas. Suburban kids can't get to the doctor without a car. 15 year olds don't have drivers licenses. Most 16 year olds around here don't have cars. Most importantly, they don't have the money to pay the doctor. 

And that's my point. These "without parental consent" laws don't do much. It's not about parental *consent*. It's about parental money, transportation and know how. It's also about housing, because a trans kid who manages to get hormone therapy might get thrown out of the house when the changes become noticeable.

It's a different story, of course, for the small subset of kids who've left home (or had to leave home), live in a city with resources, and have access to providers taking state insurance. I'm glad if the law helps those kids, but it doesn't help most.

Finally, what the state of California says, and what it actually does, are two different things. 

[Mama Mia]

20 minutes ago, Hisey said:

It's not just rural areas. Suburban kids can't get to the doctor without a car. 15 year olds don't have drivers licenses. Most 16 year olds around here don't have cars. Most importantly, they don't have the money to pay the doctor. 

And that's my point. These "without parental consent" laws don't do much. It's not about parental *consent*. It's about parental money, transportation and know how. It's also about housing, because a trans kid who manages to get hormone therapy might get thrown out of the house when the changes become noticeable.

It's a different story, of course, for the small subset of kids who've left home (or had to leave home), live in a city with resources, and have access to providers taking state insurance. I'm glad if the law helps those kids, but it doesn't help most.

Finally, what the state of California says, and what it actually does, are two different things. 

While the transgender care issues are relatively new, these supports for teens in California ( at least ) , have been in place for decades. The simplified process to obtain Medi-Cal for reproductive and substance abuse services is widespread and used all over the state. Including in the suburbs. Rural areas, as always, will have less availability. Presumably especially in the extremely sparsely populated, remote rural counties. That is kind of self-evident. 

It’s a very, very beneficial resource for teens, who have only had knowledge and access increased through the Internet. Why you would try to make it sound strange and unusable is beyond me. 

[PainfullyAware]

23 hours ago, Queen said:

Painfully Aware is quoting an article here)

You perfectly exemplified the article I was quoting. Gender identity is who you feel, internally, that you are. This is influenced by culture (some cultures have 5 or 7 genders, so moving to openly accept gender plurality is new in the West). 

Gender expression refers to social norms, the "performance" of gender roles - which vary by cultures and are of course contested. (For eample, how Michelle Duggar views the gender expression of femininity is very different from mine). Gender expression is entirely socially constructed. For example, there are traditional peoples in New Guinea who have beauty pageants for men, because their bodies are considered aesthetically pleasing and beautiful, while women's bodies are utilitarian. So the practices of adornment and cosmetic enhancements the West sees as "natural" for women is completely socially constructed. But internally, every culture has individuals who contest these norms, who are transgressive, who do their own thing. Gendered forms of expression in the west are most commonly clothing, grooming, hair care, voice alterations (ahem, michelle), body language, word choice... we can hate them but can't escape them. If you contest norms by wearing "unisex" clothing, that still conveys a social message.

Gender expression norms are just one aspect of social identity, which generally refers to how our individual sense of self interacts with social notions of morals and values, as well as gender, religion, class, disability, race, and all the other social groups out there in a heterogeneous society.

I'm certainly not suggesting gender identity is the sole factor making up identity. But it is one of the earliest social groups we are categorized by in life and determines a lot about what expectations are placed on us as "girls" or "boy". That's not a normative judgement but unfortunately just is how it is.

I hope we become much more inclusive of both gender identities AND how genders are expressed. I want the Duggars to accept trans folks' self identification of their gender identities. I ALSO want them to accept however their daughters want to express themselves as women (what's "feminine"), so it's not limited to curly long hair, skirts and loose tops. It would be great if they could be outdoorsy, natural, sexy, strong, edgy, fashionable, ... really any and every form of gendered expression. Hopefully we can make it the norm for there to be difference in expression.

 

[Mama Mia]

6 hours ago, Hisey said:

It's not just rural areas. Suburban kids can't get to the doctor without a car. 15 year olds don't have drivers licenses. Most 16 year olds around here don't have cars. Most importantly, they don't have the money to pay the doctor. 

And that's my point. These "without parental consent" laws don't do much. It's not about parental *consent*. It's about parental money, transportation and know how. It's also about housing, because a trans kid who manages to get hormone therapy might get thrown out of the house when the changes become noticeable.

It's a different story, of course, for the small subset of kids who've left home (or had to leave home), live in a city with resources, and have access to providers taking state insurance. I'm glad if the law helps those kids, but it doesn't help most.

Finally, what the state of California says, and what it actually does, are two different things. 

Also, I was a social worker in a California suburban community. Believe me, 15 year olds can find their way around to resources quite well without their parents help  - that’s kind of the entire point of having some services be confidential. 

[HarleyQuinn]

I just feel so bad for those kids every time I see a photo of them. Having Ofwreck and Ofjill for parents would be awful.

[nolongerIFBx]

On 6/28/2018 at 4:00 PM, formergothardite said:

. . . . 

I think it is because for some people their main exposure to fundie beliefs is the Duggars/Bates and those families sort of made it seem like all Gothard followers/IFB behave like they do. So when one of the Duggar/Bates start wearing normal clothes it is seen as them not being fundie when instead they switched from being one sort of a fundie to being another. Hell, they haven't really done anything that wouldn't be Gothard/IFB approved. 

In the IFBx I was raised in they would be in hella trouble for holding hands before marriage. 6 inches, people, 6 inches at all times. Also movies- doesn't matter if it is G rated, we don't go to the movie house. Avoid the appearance of evil. And if they're not out door-knocking and bus-calling at least once a week, then they're not right with God. And leggings! You would not need leggings if you were acting like a lady.

But going away to Bible college was pretty much a given, even for girls. So, yes, many different camps of fundies.