Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[Iamtheway]

On 7/1/2018 at 9:36 PM, ItsMeY'all said:

I was just coming here to complain I'm getting their ads on Facebook now! Apparently their algorithms don't realize this isn't exactly a "pro" site. Ha!

I once got an ad for 50 shades of Grey on Lily and Ellies Duggar blog. Wonder what they would have thought about that. 

[Jinder Roles]

@justoneoftwo I see what you're saying. In that instance, it would be a little concerning to have one aspect of womanhood threatened by another. And yes there are biological aspects of womanhood (and not just for cis women) that are quite important and need to be addressed. But that example you gave doesn't neglect what I touched on in my previous post. I think the mother may inadvertently done just what was done to her child, so her child wouldn't feel like an outcast. 

I personally believe that there is a way to include all the complex aspects of womanhood and gender fluidity in spaces. And make them safe for ciswomen, transwomen, genderqueer and non-binary alike. One doesn't have to take precedence over the other. And one definitely does not have to be a threat to another. 

@Palimpsest...I also struggle with understanding and even remember to consider those issues sometimes. It's a work in progress.  

[Beermeet]

Great off topic discussion!  While I definitely support transgender individuals, I come across some instances that require more though.  Not a " no, you can't do this" but, more thought as to what to do ( I don't need to do anything about this situation I'm posting besides ponder seeing as I don't play sports currently) and how I feel.  I suppose, if any teammates have beef than it should be voted on and discussed.  Idk.  It's just that women get shit for our female teams.  "Not as good", "not as watched", " couldn't be great on a man's team", etc.  We are separated from men's sports.  Women weren't even allowed to run in some major marathon's until what? The 70's?   So, I definitely have some feelings to work out in this department.  

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/06/transgender-freshman-sprinter-born-a-male-wins-two-girls-state-championships

[VelociRapture]

41 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

Great off topic discussion!  While I definitely support transgender individuals, I come across some instances that require more though.  Not a " no, you can't do this" but, more thought as to what to do ( I don't need to do anything about this situation I'm posting besides ponder seeing as I don't play sports currently) and how I feel.  I suppose, if any teammates have beef than it should be voted on and discussed.  Idk.  It's just that women get shit for our female teams.  "Not as good", "not as watched", " couldn't be great on a man's team", etc.  We are separated from men's sports.  Women weren't even allowed to run in some major marathon's until what? The 70's?   So, I definitely have some feelings to work out in this department.  

https://www.theblaze.com/news/2017/06/06/transgender-freshman-sprinter-born-a-male-wins-two-girls-state-championships

Connecticut here. I personally appreciate the CIAC stance on the issue of Transgender athletes that was in the article. I understand how frustrating it must be for other female athletes, but I honestly don’t know what other way they could handle it that would be inclusive and wouldn’t compromise the mental well-being of Trans athletes. I honestly think this will become less of an issue with time as more people become supportive of the Transgender community and more accepting of how young people can be when they first identify as Trans. I think it’ll eventually be seen as more normal for younger kids to get the ok for hormone blockers and, when they’re old enough, hormone replacement therapy. That would help level the playing field somewhat once these athletes reach the more competitive High School and College levels since they’ll have a few years of treatment at that point. 

I’m not sure what you mean when you said teammates should vote on it if they have an issue with it. Could you be a bit more specific?

[Beermeet]

3 minutes ago, VelociRapture said:

 

I’m not sure what you mean when you said teammates should vote on it if they have an issue with it. Could you be a bit more specific?

I'm not even sure what I mean.  I guess, say, a MtF teamate who is super buff and can out score/run/whatever every other teammate easily, well, should the team have a say if they are cool with that or not? I'm just thinking is all.  I was super impressed with how everyone behaved at the college and the meet.  Beautifully done.  When I first saw the article I was expecting conflict but, nope!  Well done humans!

[VelociRapture]

11 minutes ago, Beermeet said:

I'm not even sure what I mean.  I guess, say, a MtF teamate who is super buff and can out score/run/whatever every other teammate easily, well, should the team have a say if they are cool with that or not? I'm just thinking is all.  I was super impressed with how everyone behaved at the college and the meet.  Beautifully done.  When I first saw the article I was expecting conflict but, nope!  Well done humans!

The thought of a team vote makes me pretty uncomfortable to be honest. It just seems like another way of “othering” Trans athletes or a way of opening up a can of worms for forms of discrimination against other minority groups.

I do agree that the other student and her couch handled the losses with a good amount of grace. There are a lot of adults participating in the national conversation about Transgender rights that are incapable of showing even a fraction of the maturity that teenager demonstrated.

[Beermeet]

You know who has always kicked ass and included women as equals in sport?  Skateboarders.   They rule.  My husband was a skater until recently and I watch all the stuff he does in that area.  Those dudes are cool like that.  Even in the 70's.  

1 minute ago, VelociRapture said:

The thought of a team vote makes me pretty uncomfortable to be honest. It just seems like another way of “othering” Trans athletes or a way of opening up a can of worms for forms of discrimination against other minority groups.

I do agree that the other student and her couch handled the losses with a good amount of grace. There are a lot of adults participating in the national conversation about Transgender rights that are incapable of showing even a fraction of the maturity that teenager demonstrated.

Voting on it makes me uncomfortable too, tbh.  It would be unfair to the trans athlete, but isn't it unfair to the athletes without the technically stronger male form? Just trying to see all angles.  Idk.  Everyone seems to be doing just fine.  Thankfully.  Just me thinking.

[Mama Mia]

2 hours ago, VelociRapture said:

I understand how frustrating it must be for other female athletes, but I honestly don’t know what other way they could handle it that would be inclusive and wouldn’t compromise the mental well-being of Trans athletes. 

I appreciate how this conversation is respectful, and thoughtful, it’s a very complex topic.

The above thought though is what I mean by erasing female born women and girls to center MTF transgender people and their issues and concerns.

A 15 year old who has normal young male amounts of testosterone, muscle mass, height, etc. is going to have a huge advantage over 15 year old biologically female athletes. Young women who may have been training for years, and have their hopes and dreams and - very importantly- chances for college scholarships - tied into the girls sports leaques they participate in, why isn’t their comfort and well-being just as important ? 

[What the Fundie]

Please don’t attack me, this is an honest question. Why do some transgender folk decide they like the same sex romantically after they transition. Wouldn’t it just be easier to stay what they were? Ex. A F decides she is male. Transitions and then likes men sexually. Isn’t it hard to find a gay man who wants to love a new man? I get so damn confused by all of this. I never thought of myself in terms of my vagina. It never defined who I am. I never even thought about whether I was male or female until I entered adolescence. 

[Beermeet]

3 minutes ago, What the Fundie said:

Please don’t attack me, this is an honest question. Why do some transgender folk decide they like the same sex romantically after they transition. Wouldn’t it just be easier to stay what they were? Ex. A F decides she is male. Transitions and then likes men sexually. Isn’t it hard to find a gay man who wants to love a new man? I get so damn confused by all of this. I never thought of myself in terms of my vagina. It never defined who I am. I never even thought about whether I was male or female until I entered adolescence. 

I would imagine because they feel female.  And, females are typically attracted to males and visa-versa.  Then, to some, all bets are off.  Meaning, fluidity in relationships.   Non-conformity to any norm.  I mean, it's always been.  These issues are open now.  So, healthy discussion is important,  imo.

27 minutes ago, Mama Mia said:

I appreciate how this conversation is respectful, and thoughtful, it’s a very complex topic.

The above thought though is what I mean by erasing female born women and girls to center MTF transgender people and their issues and concerns.

A 15 year old who has normal young male amounts of testosterone, muscle mass, height etc is going to have a huge advantage over 15 year old biologically female athletes. Young women who may have been training for years, and have their hope and dreams and - very importantly- chancres for college scholarships - tied into the girls sports leaques they participate in, why isn’t their comfort and well-being just as important ? 

TY.  That's exactly what I mean on that end of the discussion.  Forgive my posts if unclear.  I'm having an intense last few days and am having trouble articulating.  

[JillyO]

9 minutes ago, What the Fundie said:

Please don’t attack me, this is an honest question. Why do some transgender folk decide they like the same sex romantically after they transition. Wouldn’t it just be easier to stay what they were? Ex. A F decides she is male. Transitions and then likes men sexually. Isn’t it hard to find a gay man who wants to love a new man? I get so damn confused by all of this. I never thought of myself in terms of my vagina. It never defined who I am. I never even thought about whether I was male or female until I entered adolescence. 

People don't "decide" whether they are attracted to men, women, or both. They also don't "decide" if they are male or female. It has literally nothing to do with what would be easier.

To keep with your example, AF doesn't decide "she is male." HE has always been male, even though he was born biologically female, and is now taking steps to make his body fit the reality of his gender identity. His gender identity is completely irrespective of whether he likes men or women (or both). It doesn't change because he transitions. If he likes men post-transition, then he is a gay man. He was also a gay man pre-transition.

And yes, it can be tough for trans people to find a partner who accepts them for who they are. But they can't change if they are attracted to men or women and more than you can. It's really rather simple.

 

[luv2laugh]

It is a very tricky issue for me to understand as a feminist and ally for LGBTQ, I honestly don’t have answers or know how there can be peace. 

The situation reminds me a TINY bit similar to Rachael Dolezal. Rachael Dolezal, as we all know by now, said she was trans-racial, race was a construct, and that she identifies as black. Some POC accept her and some POC take issue with the fact that it’s privilege that she’s trying to make the CHOICE of identifying as a POC and was not born a POC without choice. They say despite her good work in the community, it’s insulting for her to claim she can identify with prejudice and racial discrimination since she was not born as a POC. 

I’ve seen this situation play out with some feminists. I’m thinking of the Rose McGowan incident where she said something about how women grow up having to fear being raped, unplanned pregnancy, abortion, oppression, access to sanitary pads/tampons, birth control etc. things that come with being born into that gender and that there’s a frustration when MTF try to identify with that pain and cause. I’ve also heard some feminists saying that focusing on the female label of gender identification and making gender your identity actually hurts feminism because it reinforces gender role stereotypes of what women should look like and behave. I can understand that and think it’s a valid point but at the same time, people need to live their authentic selves, whatever that is for them...

It’s really complicated. I see both sides and I think all points are valid. I hurt for the women that are hurting, lesbians that are frustrated, but also hurt for trans women that aren’t being fully included. I’m interested in seeing how the community can work on uniting.

Maybe open communication, understanding, listening, and acknowledging everyone’s pain can pave a path for peace. Trans women are at high risk of hate crimes, rape, and suicide, and while it’s a different experience than issues cis female had to deal with, maybe we can all unite over mutual understanding for pain.

How can cis gendered females be welcoming to trans women? How can they be inclusive rather than segregate them from causes that trans women want to support but may not have experienced? 

How can trans women be allies and support with causes some cis gendered females raise without experiencing it? 

[Daisy0322]

Okay I have a question and I apologize if I don't ask it right, I have only good intentions of wanting to understand-

I get that they feel that they are a different gender but doesn't that put gender in a box so to speak? If gender is a socially constructed idea then cant we just get rid of the box we put it in. For exsample, say my son really likes dolls and coloring and other socially labeled girl things isn't that just society saying well you act like X so you should be X? It seems like by transitioning they are in a way conforming to the box society puts them in just instead of changing the way they act and their interests (like what use to be forced on people) they are changing their body. It seems like part of the problems are that we just can't accept people for who they are and what they like. I hope that makes sense.  

 

My husband has a non bionary cousin and I've tried talking to they about this but I feel like I just frustrate they. I've not experienced itvor had anyone close to me experience this feeling so I really just lack basic applied knowledge.

[The limit does not exist]

Similar to the topic of women's colleges are sororities. Who is and is not eligible for membership can be tricky and, unlike admission to colleges, is ultimately decided by collegiate members following national guidelines (i.e. Just because she is eligible because of national rules doesn't mean you have to give her a bid). 

I can think of many examples of lesbian sorority members that lived in sorority houses, both my own and others, with no one giving anything a second thought, but you see articles with relative frequency about MtoF potential new members that end up not getting a bid anywhere. 

I think all single-sex groups/clubs/colleges/etc are trying to navigate this complex topic in the best way they can.

[luv2laugh]

I am also trying to understand and researching and have only good intentions...

I read articles about how in the past, children with gender dysphoria were encouraged to play with, dress, and act how they want without giving it a label e.g. letting boy play with dolls, wear skirts, long hair, allowing girl to wear short hair and play with stereotypical boy toys. They said that at 18, the children would either grow out of gender dysphoria and conform or they would transition.

Whereas, now, there seems to be more of a label on things. I read articles discussing how instead of not giving it a label, if a boy likes dresses and barbies, they lean towards transitioning. 

IMO: I wish we were never defined by our gender. I want women to have all opportunities as a man and vice versa. I wish we could all live our authentic selves the way we want without people needing to give it a label. I wasn’t a stereotypical girly child. I was “bossy” (yet boys are not called bossy), argumentative, loud, played in mud, caught frogs, and didn’t like baby dolls. I remember being gifted an American Girl Doll and told girls are supposed to love them and felt strange because I didn’t like them. My friends did so at play dates, I felt pressure to conform to playing with dolls. I still am who I am and partnered with a man and some days I wear make up some days I don’t but I don’t want people to see me and think “OH, a female. She looks angry. Maybe she’s PMSing? God women are emotional.” I am tired of that emotional label.

[TheOneAndOnly]

Jill makes cinnamon toast differently than I do. My recipe - Butter some bread and place it on a cookie sheet. Put cinnamon and sugar on it, then stick it in the oven at about 350 until it's crispy enough to suit your tastes. Take pictures of a thoughtful toddler eating it. (Actually I skip that last bit.

[QuiverFullofBooks]

Jill posted a recipe for cinnamon toast- you know, the thing where you put cinnamon and sugar on buttered toast, that totally doesn’t need a recipe? Anyway, she calls it “one of my brother’s (Joseph) favorite.” Oh, Jill. Always so awkward.

[AliceInFundyland]

It’s important that we keep having these conversations and not be too hard on ourselves for struggling to understand things that have been rigidly constructed one way for a very long time. 

That was a good article @Palimpsest. Thank you.

Linguistic/verbal switches are something I am working on right now. I know a few people who identify as they/them. I have no issue with that. It’s rather difficult to make your brain/mouth do the pronoun jumping.

In my Burner community there has been some heated discourse about the use of the word “dude.” I am a user of the word. Gotta admit I come down on the side of nbd....but I’m trying to phase it out because I don’t want to offend anyone. If that’s where things are going, so it goes.

[Beermeet]

28 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

It’s important that we keep having these conversations and not be too hard on ourselves for struggling to understand things that have been rigidly constructed one way for a very long time. 

That was a good article @Palimpsest. Thank you.

Linguistic/verbal switches are something I am working on right now. I know a few people who identify as they/them. I have no issue with that. It’s rather difficult to make your brain/mouth do the pronoun jumping.

In my Burner community there has been some heated discourse about the use of the word “dude.” I am a user of the word. Gotta admit I come down on the side of nbd....but I’m trying to phase it out because I don’t want to offend anyone. If that’s where things are going, so it goes.

ITA about being open to discussion sans being really hard on ourselves.   I'm not going to lie, it was scary chiming in.  Especially because I'm frazzled lately and I really do give a shit.  Growing up in the 80's, there was no talk like this because it wasn't happening.   I am totally open and supportive but have situations to think about and vocabulary to change.  So, thanks all for discussing.  If we don't we'll never get anywhere further in mutual understanding.  

Dude, what's wrong with dude?  I like dude.  It's versatile.  I think of it as a harmless thing to say.  Not negative or even gender specific.  At least where I live.  Doooood!  Am I about to be bummed?

[AliceInFundyland]

@Beermeet There are some who feel that “dude” is still gender specific enough to feel exclusionary.  I do live in an area with many non-binary, fluid, transitioning people. My favorite snarky comment from the thread was “Fuck, I call my toaster dude!” The consensus was that maybe people try moving towards addressing groups as folks or lovelies or... yeah I know.  Like I said, I never would have thought of it. But words change. It’s a community I’m in. I don’t want to inadvertantly encounter one of these individuals and offend them because I didn’t take it to heart.

[candygirl200413]

Just a quick thing about the "transracial" thing. A major issue is that Rachel could easily just one day say "eh I don't feel black" and take her tan away and go on about her day. I, as a Black woman, can't erase my blackness. Also @Daisy0322, I wouldn't exactly say they are conforming for society, it is to transition for themselves so they are able to live their true life but I do kind of get where you coming from with that thought. 

I took a few human sexuality/public health courses in regards to LGBTQAI+ and I wish this was exposed to all. I thought I knew everything but I learned how large the umbrella is. I feel like once you really get deep into it, it really makes sense.

[Rachel333]

4 minutes ago, AliceInFundyland said:

The consensus was that maybe people try moving towards addressing groups as folks or lovelies or... yeah I know.  

Ah, "folks." Or "folx," which is supposed to be a gender neutral alternative... to a word I thought was already completely gender neutral. Perfectly fine word, but it is so overused in social justice communities. (Also by politicians trying to appear down to earth. ) As a result, I'm starting to develop a bit of an aversion to it.

[PainfullyAware]

I feel like the spectrum anology helps everything make sense. Labels are more like where some people cluster on a spectrum. So if you strongly identify with an extreme of the gender identity spectrum (male or female) but don't have that genitalia you transition.  If you feel in the middle or feel fluid, then non-binary or genderqueet.

If you are cis but don't conform to the stereotype of femininity or masculinity. then you are more in the middle of the gender expression spectrum. Maybe what some would call 'androgenous'. 

Inclusion means everyone can identify how they want and we respect their experiences. If a ciswoman is discussing how femininity is informed by the threat of rape culture, that's her prerogative and if others agree then that is a truth for that subgroup. If a transwoman discusses her fear of violence due to hate crime then that's her experience. It's all part of the female experience even if  not all females experience it, which goes to both sides of the debate. My two cents...

[rainbowbabycakes]

2 hours ago, TheOneAndOnly said:

Jill makes cinnamon toast differently than I do. My recipe - Butter some bread and place it on a cookie sheet. Put cinnamon and sugar on it, then stick it in the oven at about 350 until it's crispy enough to suit your tastes. Take pictures of a thoughtful toddler eating it. (Actually I skip that last bit.

That's how I make mine as well.... And her burrito is not a burrito, lol, it's more of a quesadilla, although I've never made a quesadilla with rice.

1 hour ago, AliceInFundyland said:

In my Burner community there has been some heated discourse about the use of the word “dude.” I am a user of the word. Gotta admit I come down on the side of nbd....but I’m trying to phase it out because I don’t want to offend anyone. If that’s where things are going, so it goes.

I'm a "dude" user too... It is definitely gender neutral when I say it... Guys, girls, kids, adults, the dog, even inanimate objects.... We're all dudes

 

[WhatWouldJohnCrichtonDo?]

I had a teacher who called us "people". "People! Listen up! We need to go back to the beginning of the 2nd song!" It doesn't work as well in the singular, though. Calling someone "person" doesn't really work. Too bad "guys" isn't gender neutral. Almost everyone I know uses it that way.