Mrs. Jill Duggar-Dillard (Derick) 61: Now Showing Shoulders

[Palimpsest]

16 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Right, even that gives multiple definitions and that second one is incredibly broad, which can make it difficult to agree on what exactly is or is not fundamentalism.

Well if you want it made simple I can't help.  It's like obscenity.  I know it when I see it.

I'd also point out that the first definition is perfectly good.  A fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion.

In any religion.  Or in any sect or cult of a religion.

And is usually a legalistic pain in the arse about it.

The Christian Fundamentalist Movement complicated matters by co-opting the word Fundamentalist and developing the Fundamentals:

• The inerrancy of the Bible
• The literal nature of the biblical accounts, especially regarding Christ's miracles and the Creation account in Genesis
• The virgin birth of Christ
• The bodily resurrection and physical return of Christ
• The substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross

So technically if someone doesn't believe in one or more of the above then they are not a Protestant Christian Fundamentalist. 

25 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Most Mormans are fundies, but they aren't Fundamentalist Mormans. Isn't that simple?

Bad example.  Ask Mike Pence - Mormons aren't even Christian*.  Neither are Catholics.  But both have fundamentalist sects attached and people who are cradle Mormon and Catholic and not observant.

*My sincere apologies to any CJCLDS and RCs out there.  I do think you are Christian. 

 

[Rachel333]

10 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Only if you think yours is the only one that counts. There are plenty of denominations that don't think the church down the street is full of hell-bound heathens because one sprinkles and one dunks.  My BFF who is a lesbian Episcopal priest does not think a celibate Catholic priest is going to hell - she just thinks they worship the same god in different ways and both ways are okay. That's the real difference.

See, that definition will break down too easily too.  I know plenty of people who would easily be considered fundamentalists who believe that, with some exceptions, different Christian denominations are still Christian and the members are still going to Heaven even if they don't do things exactly the same way. I doubt the Duggars think Methodists are necessarily going to Hell, for example. 

On the other hand, there are liberal Christians who think that their interpretation of the Bible is the only right one. I might prefer their interpretation, but I still find it frustrating that they can be so insistent that they are the only ones who have the right interpretation. I still wouldn't consider them fundamentalists, though.

5 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Well if you want it made simple I can't help.  It's like obscenity.  I know it when I see it.

Which was exactly my point: it would be nice if it were simpler and more objective, but it isn't.

5 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I'd also point out that the first definition is perfectly good.  A fundamentalist is a person who believes in the strict, literal interpretation of scripture in a religion.

I like that definition too and would be happy to abide by it, but others do use the term differently and if you're going by the dictionary definitions they're not actually wrong to do so.

[Alisamer]

18 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Only if you think yours is the only one that counts. There are plenty of denominations that don't think the church down the street is full of hell-bound heathens because one sprinkles and one dunks.  My BFF who is a lesbian Episcopal priest does not think a celibate Catholic priest is going to hell - she just thinks they worship the same god in different ways and both ways are okay. That's the real difference.

I think that's a major difference in churches... many Fundies believe that everyone who doesn't worship exactly the same as them is hell-bound. Meanwhile, I go to a (Baptist) church that regularly partners with the Presbyterians, Lutherans, Methodists, etc. for community events (I think the Catholics are all in the next town over, and the Jewish temples are in the city nearby, etc. - and the Fundie churches don't team up with anyone!), and our pastor very specifically had a sermon recently that included the question "What if a group came to build a mosque or a Hindu temple in our town?" and his point was that we should welcome them with love, not as an attempt to change them, but accepting them as they are. He made sure to point out that he was NOT espousing universalism, however.

I personally think I might be more universalist in my beliefs. I kind of feel like if God is really all-powerful, all knowing, and created and loves all people, then why would he care what name they call him? I tend to go with a combo of the pagan "do no harm" combined with the Hard Rock Cafe's "Love all, serve all" sort of thing.

So I kind of look at fundamentalism as that very narrow belief that they are right and everyone else is a tool of satan. Unfortunately for them, that breeds a lot of fear. If everyone else has backslid and is denying God by living a normal life, then they are terrified that if they enjoy that pop song the car next to them is playing at a stoplight, they are letting satan into their hearts. Which is why I do feel a very slight touch of hope when one of their tightly-held beliefs shifts toward freedom, no matter how slight. If shorts on a woman actually aren't defrauding to men, maybe men have more control over themselves than they were taught? Sure, some just follow along, but there's got to be some fundies going "Wait, we were taught women wearing pants was evil, but now it's not. What else were we taught that might not be true?" 

I hope there are, anyway. 

[Palimpsest]

1 minute ago, Rachel333 said:

I doubt the Duggars think Methodists are necessarily going to Hell, for example.

I have no idea about the Duggars and where they draw the line.  They seem to be OK about Reformed Presbyterian people though.  There are a lot of intermarriages between IFB and Reformed families so don't get excited.  The Extreme Reformed people are as scary and Christian Fundamentalist as any Duggar.  Sometimes more so.

However, Methodists being almost Episcopalian, who are almost Catholic, are not True Christiana,  and are almost certainly doomed in Duggar eyes.

And may I introduce you to John Shrader, Anna Duggar's BIL.  He is a a Trail of Blood "Bible Baptist." He believes that most Baptists (and Gothard) have got it wrong.  Calvinists are ebil and persecuted true Baptists.  Basically anyone who has not been converted by John Shrader is doomed to Burn for Eternity in Hell Fire.

[nelliebelle1197]

16 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

Bad example.  Ask Mike Pence - Mormons aren't even Christian*.  Neither are Catholics.  But both have fundamentalist sects attached and people who are cradle Mormon and Catholic and not observant.

 

 

Nope, because when I talk about fundies, I don't discriminate. A fundie is a fundie, no matter how small...the god.

@Rachel333 You killin' me, smalls.

[Rachel333]

7 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

I have no idea about the Duggars and where they draw the line.  They seem to be OK about Reformed Presbyterian people though.  There are a lot of intermarriages between IFB and Reformed families so don't get excited.  The Extreme Reformed people are as scary and Christian Fundamentalist as any Duggar.  Sometimes more so.

However, Methodists being almost Episcopalian, who are almost Catholic, are not True Christiana,  and are almost certainly doomed in Duggar eyes.

And may I introduce you to John Shrader, Anna Duggar's BIL.  He is a a Trail of Blood "Bible Baptist." He believes that most Baptists (and Gothard) have got it wrong.  Calvinists are ebil and persecuted true Baptists.  Basically anyone who has not been converted by John Shrader is doomed to Burn for Eternity in Hell Fire.

Oh, those people absolutely exist, never denied that! My point is that there are those who are fundamentalists who don't think that all other Christians are going to Hell just because they're a different denomination.

And just in my limited experience with fundamentalists and Methodists, the fundies I know (including ATI, Duggar-adjacent people) seemed to have no issue considering Methodists as fellow Christians.

(Edited to add that it's also relevant that the Methodists I knew were all pretty conservative.)

[justoneoftwo]

23 minutes ago, nelliebelle1197 said:

Only if you think yours is the only one that counts. There are plenty of denominations that don't think the church down the street is full of hell-bound heathens because one sprinkles and one dunks.  My BFF who is a lesbian Episcopal priest does not think a celibate Catholic priest is going to hell - she just thinks they worship the same god in different ways and both ways are okay. That's the real difference.

My point was that the doctrine was fundie, not the people.  While many Episcopalians don't think Catholics are going to hell, the underlying doctrine does.  It is really uncommon for any doctrine to not think it is the best or only way.  Which is why fundamentalist people have a problem, following every aspect of your doctrine is limiting.  Most people pick and chose (even the fundies we follow) when it comes to using doctrine in real life.

[Rachel333]

That's the thing, it's way too easy to nitpick about exactly where the boundaries of fundamentalism lie.  I think it's far less important to decide who exactly is or is not a fundamentalist than it is to consider the actual impact their beliefs have on themselves and others.

[Lisafer]

20 minutes ago, Palimpsest said:

  The Extreme Reformed people are as scary and Christian Fundamentalist as any Duggar.  Sometimes more so.

 

Oh yeah. Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips (who is a tool), RC Sproul Jr.: they all scare me more than Jim Bob Duggar. Jim Bob strikes me as more concerned about his "brand" and making money than religion. 

Edit to add: I realize DPIART doesn't play up the Christian thing anymore, but he's a scary man no matter what he believes!

[formergothardite]

2 hours ago, Daisy0322 said:

girls not incouraged to have and continuing education. Boys maybe go to a Christian college or seminary school if they want.

Except when they don't have this attitude. LOL The Bates are fine with girls going to college. Even a community college. This is why it is hard to say pigeonhole fundies. 

[Palimpsest]

27 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

I like that definition too and would be happy to abide by it, but others do use the term differently and if you're going by the dictionary definitions they're not actually wrong to do so.

I think it should be defined just that broadly.  Someone who insists on citing the Bible (or any other scripture) as reason to persecute others and enact legislation barring other religions and beliefs.

And I was gobsmacked by the person who wants to limit the term Fundie solely to IFB.  That is nuts.  IMO.

10 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

My point is that there are those who are fundamentalists who don't think that all other Christians are going to Hell just because they're a different denomination.

As I said up above, not all Fundamentalists are Extreme Fundamentalists.  There is nothing intrinsically evil about Christian Fundamentalism.  That is so long as they don't try to impose their Bible Literalism on others and start advocating for murdering gays and single mothers.  I don't care if they think the Bible is inerrant and twist scripture until it screams - so long as they don't  impose their beliefs on others.

I think people get confused because most of the Fundies we talk about here are on the extreme end of the scale and many are part of the Christian Patriarchy Movement.

6 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

Oh yeah. Doug Wilson, Doug Phillips (who is a tool), RC Sproul Jr.: they all scare me more than Jim Bob Duggar. Jim Bob strikes me as more concerned about his "brand" and making money than religion.

Indeed.  And that is why we define Fundie a lot more broadly than IBLP and IFB.  I'm deathly scared of the Rushdooneyites and Christian Reconstructionists.

And Jim Bob is not the sharpest tool in the shed.

9 minutes ago, justoneoftwo said:

While many Episcopalians don't think Catholics are going to hell, the underlying doctrine does.

Say what?  Where's @ViolaSebastian when I need her!  That is certainly not true of the Anglican Communion.

@Alisamer, your church is downright ecumenical.  Ecumenism is a four letter word to your true Fundie.

 

[pandora]

14 minutes ago, Rachel333 said:

Actually, mainstream Mormons are a more interesting example than I originally thought. Obviously all groups care about both beliefs and practices, but some emphasize one more than the other, and Mormons do tend to emphasize practice over belief (or orthopraxy over orthodoxy), while what most people here seem to agree on, even if we disagree on the relevance of certain practices, is that core beliefs are more important than practices.

With Mormonism, there is a lot more variety in belief than a lot of people realize. If you read Mormon blogs you'll find some members who differ quite a bit in their theology (like some feminist Mormons who prefer to worship a Heavenly Mother) while maintaining good status in the LDS church. They might not be common, but they're there.

Ooh I'm always interested in talking Mormonism, I find it so interesting (I grew up in a town with a fair chunk of lds). I'd argue most Mormons are fundamentalist because that practice doesn't happen without belief. Even the most liberal of Mormons believe that their brand of Christianity is the only church that has it all right, and their members will be the only ones in the highest level of heaven, and that's a fundamentalist belief. You're required to tithe 10% of your income to be in good standing with the church (among other things), I think it's cultish if your religion lays claim on your income as a contingency of membership. You lose the ability to enter the temple if you don't. I agree with you that there's lots of members who struggle with personal theological differences (some of which the lds church is ok with like the heavenly mother concept) but that's it- they struggle, because at base they think the church is true, and what the church requires from them is acquiescence even when they aren't 100% on board with the current leader. I don't see that as less fundamentalist- lots of fundies struggle with their beliefs but stay because they think that they are doing God's will (Josh Bontrager's blog post this week talks about how Christians are called to obey God, not to understand). People who speak up in the church about holding differing views or seeking change can get excommunicated, like Kate Kelly. If you can hold differing views but get kicked out of church for expressing them, that practice seems rooted in fundamentalist belief to me. I can think of other examples, but that's what first comes to mind. 

I think mormons tend to do a lot of good things for their communities, they're taught to volunteer and help their neighbors. I have high school friends who are lds. But I think you have to be a fundamentalist to be a full member of their church.

[justoneoftwo]

1 minute ago, Palimpsest said:

 

Say what?  Where's @ViolaSebastian when I need her!  That is certainly not true of the Anglican Communion.

@Alisamer, your church is downright ecumenical.  Ecumenism is a four letter word to your true Fundie.

 

It isn't?  I'm glad to know I'm misinformed, but this is what I was always taught (Episcopalian school, basically they taught us that this was the doctrine, but it was wrong, it was an interesting school).  

[Georgiana]

Another reason why fundamentalism is so hard to nail down is that it is generally a term APPLIED to people, not one they use themselves.  If you want to know whether someone is Catholic, Lutheran, Muslim, etc.: ask.  They'll tell you.  Then they can tell you WHY they consider themselves X, WHAT BELIEFS they consider to be essential and definitive to that identity, and WHERE they draw the line.  Like in Catholic Catechism class I literally had a unit on "What it means to be Catholic" which covered essential beliefs and differences from similar religions.

But since Fundies don't often identify THEMSELVES as fundies, we can't get that sort of self-reporting.  We have to evaluate other people's beliefs, which is always hard to do because you can never get into another person's head.  

For fundies, I personally take the same stance as Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart when asked to rule on what constitutes "hard core pornography": "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description; and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it."

I don't know that I or perhaps any of us could ever succeed in providing an ironclad definition for what makes a Fundie. There are too many flavors and too many conflicting styles and too many intersections of belief and practice. But if you drill down, like Justice Stewart, I think you would find that you have similar problems with other labels you probably use freely (What makes something lewd or sexual in nature? Where is the line? Is it JUST the absence of clothing (unlikely)?  Intent? Or more, perhaps an intersection?).  But just because you can't define it in the abstract doesn't mean you don't know it when you see it.  

For me, a person is a fundie when they adhere to a strict, legalistic interpretation of a religion or doctrine AND seek to force that interpretation onto others (via any means) AND reject, ignore, or attack secular scholarship that disagrees with them.  This means that yes, I do consider there to be LEFT WING fundies.

[Greendoor]

My definiton:

Liberal believes in Heaven

Conservative believes in Heaven and Hell

Fundy belives in End TImes

[singsingsing]

1 minute ago, Greendoor said:

My definiton:

Liberal believes in Heaven

Conservative believes in Heaven and Hell

Fundy belives in End TImes

But you can fall into any of those categories and believe any of those things. 

[HarleyQuinn]

There's so much thread drift I can't seem to find if this was discussed already, but dWRECK and his small penis are going after Jazz again.

 

 

[singsingsing]

3 minutes ago, HarleyQuinn said:

There's so much thread drift I can't seem to find if this was discussed already, but dWRECK and his small penis are going after Jazz again.

 

 

Also attacking the media on the same time five journalists were gunned down. Stay classy, Mr. Jill!

[Palimpsest]

17 minutes ago, formergothardite said:

Except when they don't have this attitude. LOL The Bates are fine with girls going to college. Even a community college. This is why it is hard to say pigeonhole fundies. 

And please don't anyone tell me that non-accredited Christian colleges that accept female students getting their Mrs degrees aren't both Fundie and peopled with Fundies.  Like Pensacola Christian College isn't Fundie! 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensacola_Christian_College

[Greendoor]

Does this help a tad?

Liberals believe in Heaven for all, your belief is equal to theirs, no belief is equal.  So no particular anything is required.

Conservatives believe in Heaven and Hell and worry, especially for the "Others",  who will surely go to Hell.  So a Conservative must ready self,family and friends in the way they see fit.

Fundy's belive in End Times.  God will judge, sort, condemn and otherwise choose a few who believe like me but not all.  So desperation, and paranoia; we are all going to die and there's no guarantee of mercy.  Hence the crazyiness in their families and lifestyle. 

 

You can dress anyway you want, it's your core belief that sets you up for the times of your life.  

[HarleyQuinn]

Hey Ofjill, if you're reading here, I just want to let you know that it's troubling how obsessed you are with what's in this teenager's pants. 

[Don'tlikekoolaid]

This fundy clothing thread is very enlightening.  My Mom would say, "you can't tell a book by it's cover". Or, " the apple looks good but it is rotten at the core". Or "you can put lipstick on a pig but it's still a pig".  

[Lisafer]

5 minutes ago, Greendoor said:

Does this help a tad?

Liberals believe in Heaven for all, your belief is equal to theirs, no belief is equal.  So no particular anything is required.

Conservatives believe in Heaven and Hell and worry, especially for the "Others",  who will surely go to Hell.  So a Conservative must ready self,family and friends in the way they see fit.

Fundy's belive in End Times.  God will judge, sort, condemn and otherwise choose a few who believe like me but not all.  So desperation, and paranoia; we are all going to die and there's no guarantee of mercy.  Hence the crazyiness in their families and lifestyle. 

 

You can dress anyway you want, it's your core belief that sets you up for the times of your life.  I also think this is way the Fundy's and non-church goers are on the increase.  It's easy to believe everyone's ok, or to believe only you are.  

I feel like this is subdividing Christians by a tangential issue (eschatology) rather than the core issue: whether they believe that everybody else should be forced to abide by their definition of Bible-based morality. 

[justoneoftwo]

4 minutes ago, Lisafer said:

I feel like this is subdividing Christians by a tangential issue (eschatology) rather than the core issue: whether they believe that everybody else should be forced to abide by their definition of Bible-based morality. 

So the FLDS don't think others should be forced to abide by their morality, they just thing everyone is evil and they should "bleed the beast."  They are definitely fundie, they even claim it!  So I don't think this can be our limiting factor.

[Greendoor]

Just now, Lisafer said:

I feel like this is subdividing Christians by a tangential issue (eschatology) rather than the core issue: whether they believe that everybody else should be forced to abide by their definition of Bible-based morality. 

The Liberal doesn't believe in that.  I have no experience of either Conservativism or Fundmentalism, only ever ran into one woman who was home schooling her kids and a nephew.  Which was odd.  They were from Oregon (centre of all cults, yes?) and at a swimming pool.  What was she doing with someone else's baby in Canada?  Perhaps they stole him. Years ago now.